Looking to be Guided

[Ocean]

Hello:

I am looking for a guide to work with me.

Thanks,

Ocean

[dreamer]

Hi Ocean

I can be your guide.

1. We will post at least once a day.
2. I ask questions, you answer honestly from your own experience
3. Please put aside any 'seeking' and spiritual practice while we work together

What are your expectations on 'awakening'? Answer as detailed as you can.

'I' does not exist. What happens when you read this?

Greetings Vivi

[Ocean]

Dear Vivi:

Thanks for your response and for agreeing to be my guide.

I agree to the three conditions and will respond to the two questions later today.

Regards,

Ocean

[Ocean]

Dear Vivi

Before we get started a little background on me. I have been seeking for about 15 years. My first experience came in my mid twenties when I did a group awareness training course which I found to be quite profound. Soon after I discovered Tao Te Ching and a book on Ramana Maharishi. Since then I have participated in and read/listened to a variety of contemporary non-dual teachings. In addition I have done a number of self help, spiritual courses, meditation, retreats etc. Most  of what I have read on LU is quite familiar to me. It makes sense at times and at other times it is not instinctively clear.

What are your expectations on 'awakening'? Answer as detailed as you can.

A lessening of fear, anxiety,  and more joy and peace. Greater satisfaction in Life. The ability to handle life's challenges with less drama and more ease. Less doubting and blaming of myself when I do not do things I feel I should have done. The ability to live life more fully, pursue and fulfill on dreams and use this life to be of service to others. Be happy and grateful for everything that life has to offer.

'I' does not exist. What happens when you read this?

I see a lot of different contradictory thoughts come up. "Yes this makes sense, there is no omnipotent controller, I have heard this a million times, it is has become a spiritual cliche. how come it resonates sometimes and not at other times. If I just rely on direct experience it makes sense, but surely all the education, training, fixing, earning a living cannot be in the service of an "I" that does not exist. How can everyone have gotten this so wrong?" .....Basically a lot of debating back and forth.

Also behind all these contradictory thoughts there is some unease as to what the implications are, some fear and anxiety. In one of the talks on the LU website on FEAR the speaker mentioned the fear of becoming a useless person (I am paraphrasing here). That resonated with me, if I do not try and control my life I will become useless, indulge, waste time, will not accomplish anything meaningful, have difficulty surviving etc. And at the same time there is no evidence of a doer / controller. Lot of what I consider me happens quite automatically and afterwards thoughts arise and claim ownership and other times they do not. Other times it is the other way around, a thought will arise and an action follows.

Regards,

Ocean

[dreamer]

Hi Ocean
Thank you for the detailed answers.

Tell me in direct experience can you find an 'I' anywhere?
If yes, where, when and what?
If no, what do you find then?

Greetings Vivi

[Ocean]

Dear Vivi:

Relying on direct experience, there is the experience of sensations, images, sounds, thoughts that come up and go away. I am here sitting in a cafe watching the snow fall. But what is there: Sensations: of the chair, my feet on the ground, key board on my fingers, breathing. Images:  people, tables, chairs, snow, cars all coming and going. Sounds:  music, clinking of glass, chatter. Thoughts keep arising, labeling, talking about what I need to take care, commenting on what is arising,  etc.

Is there an 'I' in any of this.  At least not that I can find  in a direct and obvious manner. 

Taking direct experience to its logical conclusion: your request and me looking for an "I" is also just happening with no "I" doing anything??!

However, if I believe the thoughts and stories it seems plausible that there is an "I" that may be hidden but could be running the show some of the time. Not an omnipotent 'I' but a conditional 'I'. After all some things do seem to follow a thought and a decision, even though the mechanism is hidden. E.g. Thought:  Let me order a green tea today. Action: Asking the barista in the cafe: "Can I please have a green tea."

Regards,

Ocean

[dreamer]

Hi Ocean

No 'I' to be found in direct experience.

Taking direct experience to its logical conclusion: your request and me looking for an "I" is also just happening with no "I" doing anything??!

Yes, no 'I' requesting and no 'I' looking.

Let's look at thoughts then

Thought: Let me order a green tea today. Action: Asking the barista in the cafe: "Can I please have a green tea."

No 'I' thinking, no 'I' ordering green tea. What do you experience in direct experience about this?
Can you find a thinker of thoughts?
Do you experience a link between 'let me order a green tea today' and 'Can I please have a green tea.' Look carefully.

Greetings Vivi

[Ocean]

Dear Vivi:

Here is my response:

No 'I' thinking, no 'I' ordering green tea. What do you experience in direct experience about this?
Can you find a thinker of thoughts?
Do you experience a link between 'let me order a green tea today' and 'Can I please have a green tea.' Look carefully.

In direct experience there is a thought, like "I want green tea." and then sometimes there is the action, "Can I please have  green tea." and at other times there may be another action or some other thought arising.  

Is there a link? 

Only that one precedes the other and sometimes there is a thought that informs that this has happened before hence they must be linked. So it seems that the reason they are linked is because a thought appears saying that they are linked. And this thought is believed. Looks like these these causal links and assumptions appear as thought statements, just another thought appearing in the flow.

 The part that can get confusing is that some thoughts, such as the one linking the wanting and asking for green tea are believed while a thought that states:  "there is a unicorn under the bed" is not believed. Why is that? Is it just a question of investigating through direct experience or is there past conditioning at work? That is not clear.

Regards,

[dreamer]

Very good Ocean

Sometimes there is a thought, sometimes there is an action, no link between them except in thoughts.

The part that can get confusing is that some thoughts, such as the one linking the wanting and asking for green tea are believed while a thought that states: "there is a unicorn under the bed" is not believed. Why is that? Is it just a question of investigating through direct experience or is there past conditioning at work? That is not clear.

WHAT is it that believes thoughts?
What is it that believes the thought 'I want green tea' and not believes 'there is a unicorn under my bed'
Look in direct experience.

In direct experience can you find any conditioning?

Greetings
Vivi

[Ocean]

Hi Vivi:

WHAT is it that believes thoughts?
What is it that believes the thought 'I want green tea' and not believes 'there is a unicorn under my bed'
Look in direct experience.

In direct experience can you find any conditioning?

This was a good question to investigate. It had me question and investigate what I meant by the believer. Something whose solidity I took for granted.

Here is what I saw:

When I look at my direct experience all I see are thoughts and sensations. No "believer" to be found other than a thought that labels another thought or sensation as a sign of the "believer" or the act of believing. Conversely a different sensation is labeled as a sign of not believing.  In direct experience there is no "believer" to be found. If it was found it would it not be just the "I" or "doer" entering in through the back door! Also in direct experience there is no conditioning to be found. It is only a thought.

Regards,

Ocean

[dreamer]

Hi Ocean

Excellent looking!

It is all thoughts :)

When questioning the word 'why' leads into more thoughts. Is it true? If yes, what is it that makes 'why' a thought loop constructor? If no, why not?

Greetings

Vivi

[Ocean]

Hi Vivi:
Thanks so much for your support and questions. They are most helpful. Here is my response:

When questioning the word 'why' leads into more thoughts. Is it true? If yes, what is it that makes 'why' a thought loop constructor? If no, why not?

In direct experience, thoughts come one after another, no thought causing another thought.  So even the "why ...." thought  is just another thought.  Sometimes another thought may arise after the "why ..." thought  which claims to be the responding to the prior "why..." thought. But this is just another thought coming up. In direct experience there is no 'thought loop constructor' to be found. The story of the 'thought loop constructor' is just another thought.

Regards,

Ocean

[dreamer]

Good Ocean!

Yes thoughts come independent of each other any link between thoughts is a thought. No thought causes another thought in fact nothing causes anything, it just looks like it.

What is the difference between knowing and believing?

So, no I, no controller, no believer, no doer, no conditioning, no link between thoughts to be found.
What IS?

Greetings Vivi

[dreamer]

Also no thinker.

Can you find an experiencer?

[Ocean]

Hi Vivi:

What is the difference between knowing and believing?

Both knowing and believing are concepts arising in thought, and they require a knower or believer to exist but neither a knower or believer can be found in direct experience. So there is no I, no controller, no believer, no knower. Just this!

What IS?

Just this flow of thoughts and sensations. This vivid alive experiencing. A Mystery!

Can you find an experiencer?

No experiencer to be found either, just experiencing. The experiencer or witness is just a thought with a label "experiencer" or "witness".

Had an interesting experience today. Got an email that in the past would have caused some inner turmoil: "I should...", "I could...", "What should I do ...", etc. But today by direct experience of the thoughts and sensations no "I" was found, no doer to own the turmoil. No "I" to protect. And in that seeing, all that was there was the experiencing of thoughts and sensations. Actions arose and life flowed on.

Regards,

Ocean