Trip to Liberation

[fowler]

Hello everybody, how are you doing?

My adventures with spirituality began like 2 years ago. My thinking mind, my conditioning, brought me to a moment in life, where I considered going to psychiatrist and taking meds because my self-created suffering got so strong I couln't take it anymore. I made a victim of myself, everyone seemed to want to hurt me, where in fact I turned out to be not as nice as my mind considered me to be.

I came across some spirituality books, youtube videos. Still I didn't have too many personal experiences. At first after aquiring some knowledge I wanted to spread it, talk with people, still they wouldn's listen to me, considered me as a fool.
I didn't have any moment of awakening, no drama, no enlightenment :D Still it seems I understand the illusion of I quite well, still, I'm afraid it's only intelectual.
Although life is totally different now, I'm still going to work, still everything is happening. Still there are moments when It seems it's happening to me. Moments come when I doubt if there were any realization at all in my case. I'm afraid my thinking mind is still in 100% control. That's what brought me here.

I watched the youtube videos on Liberation Unleashed Website, read a couple of pages from the pdf book but It's only giving my mind more theoretical knowledge that's why im posting now.

[dreamer]

Hi fowler

What makes you fear your understanding of the illusion of I is 'only' intellectual?

I can be your guide. My expectations:
1. You answer as honest as you can, I ask the questions
2. You put aside any spiritual search and practice (if possible) while we work together
3. we will be in contact at least one time a day. If occacionally not possible, we will let each other know.

What do you say?

Greetings Vivi

[fowler]

I can be your guide. My expectations:
1. You answer as honest as you can, I ask the questions
2. You put aside any spiritual search and practice (if possible) while we work together
3. we will be in contact at least one time a day. If occacionally not possible, we will let each other know.
What do you say?
Greetings Vivi

that's great. all expectations are going to be met. glad you responded :D

Hi fowler
What makes you fear your understanding of the illusion of I is 'only' intellectual?

Listening to spiritual teachers I heard about "enlightened ego's" or "enlightened I". I feel it can be so in my case. Hardly anything has changed in my life. Still go to work, still I get angry from time to time, still I'm often lazy, no Budha or enlightened being came out of me.

The second thing is I feel like I had little personal experience in the subject of "no-self".

As I'm writing these words an idea came if my fear isn't just another thought, another nice try by the ego that's left to hold on to sth :D

[dreamer]

Hi fowler

Seems that you have some expectations of how it is to be REALLY enlightened. Please make a list of every expectation you have, as detailed as possible.




Greetings Vivi

[dreamer]

As I'm writing these words an idea came if my fear isn't just another thought, another nice try by the ego that's left to hold on to sth :D

Explore this..is it so?

Greetings Vivi

[fowler]

Seems that you have some expectations of how it is to be REALLY enlightened. Please make a list of every expectation you have, as detailed as possible.
Greetings Vivi

1. Being calm and relaxed :D - It seems so silly as I write about it now but I imagine a picture of me that's never angry, never sad, with people around me happy to see me :D
2. Not caring about food, free time and other non-important stuff :D The second one seems even more silly than the first one :D

What I noticed now is when I'm observing mind activity it suddenly hides, escapes like a rabbit :D some sort of self - defense I presume, nice :D

As I'm writing these words an idea came if my fear isn't just another thought, another nice try by the ego that's left to hold on to sth :D

Explore this..is it so?

it seems to be the case. why the hell would my mind want to act in such a crazy way - just wondering :D

[fowler]

3. one more thing that came is being able to control my mind, control the thought process even though I know it's not possible.
4. one more thing that bothers me is still that other people seem to create anger in me sometimes. after a couple of minutes though, a seeing comes where there is recognition that anger simply arouse in me, nobody creates any anger :D

[dreamer]

What beautiful expectations....:D.......Now we have seen them, please put them aside, if wanted we can have a look at them again later.

For you to investigate in direct experience (as little thought as possible):

1. What makes the mind hide in self-defense?
2. What makes the mind fearful?
3. What is mind?
4. What is that becomes bothered of feelings arising?

:) Vivi

[fowler]

1. What makes the mind hide in self-defense?
2. What makes the mind fearful?
3. What is mind?
4. What is that becomes bothered of feelings arising?

:) Vivi

1. There's no doer of that, that hiding is simply happening. For sure it wasn't any 'ME' who did this :D
2. It's probably some sense of I that's left
3. It's a bunch of sth created by circulation of hormones and neuropeptydes and other biochemical stuff, it's a tool to help life survive and reproduce.
4. It's still the mind becoming bothered of its own activity, what a paradox.

[dreamer]

Fine !

Now what is missing in seeing the illusion of 'I'

???

:) Vivi

[fowler]

Fine !

Now what is missing in seeing the illusion of 'I'

???

:) Vivi

Nothing's missing. Thoughts arise spontaneously, without any control. There's nothing that's controlling or could control them. Only seeing can happen. And that seeing has nothing to do with the thinking mind. How damn simple.

There never was any me. Everything's in place.

How nice.

[dreamer]

I agree, how nice :)

Do you feel ready for the 'final questions'?

:) Vivi

[fowler]

I agree, how nice :)

Do you feel ready for the 'final questions'?

:) Vivi

Yes Vivi, thx.

[dreamer]

OK, here they are:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

[fowler]

OK, here they are:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No me. Nowhere. No shape, no color, no form. It was never here, there was only 'me' thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Illusion of seperate self is a phenomenon, probably typical only for mankind. Monkeys, flowers, butterflies, elephants are lucky enough never to experience that rubbish. The illusion probably starts the moment a child hears conditioning paradox from parents, from friends from the playground, the moment it notices how world seems to work, when the system of punishment and reward kicks in. Until the illusion in the child arises, the child is like a joyful puppy, like flying butterflies, simply happy, simply curious, simply living, not threathened by anything or anyone. The child just simply is.
The illusion results in a creation of a seperate self, an I, a me, a ego. All of these are apparent though. All are thoughts. Still they are the cause of wars, still thanks to them men created thousands of gods, still the illusion creates suffering all over the world. But the worst thing im my experience is the fear the illusion creates. When the I dissapears, what's there left to fear?

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

Oh, the first thing that comes is it feels like nothing. Like there finally is nothing. Everything from the past is like some movie or sth, like it happened and it was seen, but by nobody :D Cause there never was anybody to have experienced this.

It's really hard to describe this now. It was easier while being a more advanced spiritual seeker where I wanted to tell everybody everything and let them know how different they are from me. It was all of course before the illusion was seen.
Now it feels really weird even writing about it... It just is.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

What would you say if everything you ever suffered about never happened? What would you do if it turned out you have been in deep sleep your whole life? What if it turned out you never were born and therefore you can never die?
You know, all the things I mentioned are related to one particular thing, a phenomenon, a paradox, which is an illusion of a seperate self. It's a trick performed by the human mind, quite hard to get noticed in everyday life. Would you like to know some more?

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

No clue there, to be honest it seems really irrelevant now :D :D :D

Was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

Oh, there was no particular moment, no drama story to tell, I didn't wake up in the morning and there it was, nor was I rolling all over the floor after a moment of realization.
The thing that happened, i guess, was gradual, slow dissolving of past beliefs and conditioning, consequent questioning of thoughts. It was going on slowly, unconsciously for months. "I" wasn't even aware it was happening.