I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

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Sanna
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I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby Sanna » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:15 pm

Hello Mark,

I would like to work through this process with you.

I am prepared to commit to posting as often as is necessary.

I would like to know what it is that is doing this misidentifying.

Thank you.

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mark_tywharton
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:51 am

Hi Sanna

Tell me a bit about what brings you here...

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Sanna
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby Sanna » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:15 pm

Hi Mark,

Thank you for being available to guide me through this process.

I have been seeking for many years. I have spent the last few years reading a few books about non duality and have watched quite a few videos. All of this appears to have caused more confusion. In a roundabout way I've ended up here at LU.

I seem to have become obsessed with finding out who I am, or am not!

This obsession appears to be fuelled by the belief or feeling that there should be something more to life, or at least that there could be a better way to experience life as it is in a more fulfilling way.

But, all of this seeking is being confused by what I have read about there not being an actual self.

If there isn't a 'me', then what is it that feels so frustrated?

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mark_tywharton
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:17 pm

You say you are seeking?

What are you looking for and what would it feel like if you found it?

What are your expectations (from working through this process)?

There will be an attachment to something that you believe to be you

It needs to be examined to see if it really is you

Or to see if it is something else

Start here

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Sanna
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby Sanna » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:11 pm

What are you looking for and what would it feel like if you found it?
During the last couple of years there have been periods - anything from a few moments to a few hours - where there has been the experience of seeing or being with whatever is present. As though I am present, but not the usual I, this is more like just present. It is impossibe to describe, as though there is presence, this thing we call life, but the presence or life doesn't belong to anyone, it is the way it is. Like, there aren't any questions there or even any fear, death doesn't have any meaning or at least the underlying fear of death that is normally present is absent, a non issue, not relevent. So, what I am looking for is to know more about the experience that I have just described. Also, when this experience is present there are also flashes of long forgotten childhood memories, sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference between then and now, as though there hasn't been any change, I am as I was then.

What are your expectations (from working through this process)?
Also during the experience described above ^ it is seen that the usual feeling of me is absent, it's as though that feeling of me is seen to be an accustomed way of experiencing, as if experiencing through the eyes or feeling of the usual way of being, can't really find the appropriate words to describe the absence of the sense of me. I am not really sure what the expectation is, maybe to have some sort of finality/closer/explanation.


There will be an attachment to something that you believe to be you,It needs to be examined to see if it really is you. Or to see if it is something else.
It feels as though there is a me, but is that feeling of me what is being misidentified as an 'actual' me.

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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:28 pm

What is your earliest memory?

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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:29 pm

Oh also, do you understand what is meant by the word "state" as in emotional state, or state of mind?

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Sanna
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby Sanna » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:17 pm

What is your earliest memory?
Being terrified as my father walked out to sea carrying me on his shoulders.

Do you understand what is meant by the word "state" as in emotional state, or state of mind?
My understanding of the word 'state' is that a state is an experience, that I appear to be experiencing, or, there appears to be the presence of an experience.

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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:29 am

Okay cool...

Right two things.

1. Write a shortlist which includes no more than ten of the most important things you want in life. What would make your life complete? What do you wish for? What is your burning desire? What is missing from your life?

Finish the list then go on to the next step.

2. Thinking about your earliest memories. What was it like to be a small child? At the heart of the experience can you remember what it was like to be a YOU? Start to recall specific aspects particularly any quality of life which you still identify with now. See if you can find a constant “I, me, or Self” in any of this and then describe it in detail.

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Sanna
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby Sanna » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:25 pm

Write a shortlist which includes no more than ten of the most important things you want in life. What would make your life complete? What do you wish for? What is your burning desire? What is missing from your life?
1. Is it possible to know the truth, what's really going on. This experience of everything simply being as it is, no separation - no idea of separation - is it just a state/experience in the mind. When this experience of life being as it is - present as it is - is present, the feeling of a "me" in the usual sense is absent, while that experience is present it doesn't feel as though there is a 'someone' in receipt of the experience, somehow, life 'just is' - no questions asked.

But, as soon as that experience is no longer present, then the usual feeling of me reappears, even though there appears to be some kind of change in the way life is now being viewed - the point of view appears to have changed to a kind of seeing/experiencing life as if with a layer of something having been peeled away. But, then there reappears a doubt as to the validity of the 'just is' experience, was it simply a state of mind, different to the usual one of feeling that I am a person having experiences in life, of a me trying to find out the validity of the 'just is' experience. Sometimes, when the 'just is' experience is present, it feels as though I am the 'just is', but not the usual "I", there JUST IS. Also, sometimes while that 'just is' experience is present it is as though it is accompanied by an 'inner' laughter, a sort of recognition of recognition, something like that!



Thinking about your earliest memories. What was it like to be a small child? At the heart of the experience can you remember what it was like to be a YOU? Start to recall specific aspects particularly any quality of life which you still identify with now. See if you can find a constant “I, me, or Self” in any of this and then describe it in detail.
Recalling childhood memories brings a recollection of the feeling similar to the 'just is' experience - Viewing life without there being a solid physical viewer, simply the presence of the viewing or experience. Like when you wake up in a dream and know that there is the experience/ing of the dream. But, strangely, even though it is somehow known that a dream is being experienced it is still 'real', there is a realness to the experience, I mean only the experiencing is real.

Trying to feel the feeling of being a young child brings a rememberance of being there as a witness to life. I/something was present/in the experience, or that the experience was somehow being felt.

At the heart of the expereince of being a small child felt like an emptiness in receipt of life's happening(s) - something like that!

I know that you asked that I describe in detail but, I feel to go into too much detail will simply bring about a sort of cycle of repetition.


Maybe you mean the feeling of what life was like as a small child when I started to feel as though there I was and was having an experience, in that case the feeling was of - this is scary, I have to do something to get away from this situation/experience.

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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:35 am

I think you have quite a few ideas about what it should be like to experience what is being offered here? no self? enlightenment? and end to suffering? like some amazing state of mind that has been lost?

First of all, it hasn't gone anywhere it is already here and it is happening now or you wouldn't be reading this.

It isn't very complicated and thinking about it muddies the 'water'.

Can you bring beginners mind to this and approach it afresh?

Forgetting everything you know about this...

Can you identify what you desire?

Like physical "things"

For the sake of conversation it might be loud music, hot rods or chocolate :)

It is clear that you are a spiritual seeker and it is top of the list but as the 'water' is a bit unclear in that area what are your other nine?

The second part is to find the "feeling" or "thought" of you, where is it?

Somewhere in the body? In the head? In the heart? In thinking?

What state? Emotional? Mental? Spiritual? is identified as you?

There is an identity doing all this?

Can you find it?

Get right into the description of it and then when you have hold of the experience, describe it fully.

Is there a coherent "state" which is believed to be you that is created like a "constant" in life?

It is great that there have been 'just is' experiences but come back to those later, they won't help explain this

It's actually faster to get at it from here and now because here and now can slap you right in the face

Your other 'spiritual' experiences are memories and don't get into the game of comparing them to see how you are doing

Have another stab at answering the questions please

Thanks

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Sanna
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby Sanna » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:58 am

I think you have quite a few ideas about what it should be like to experience what is being offered here? no self? enlightenment? and end to suffering? like some amazing state of mind that has been lost? First of all, it hasn't gone anywhere it is already here and it is happening now or you wouldn't be reading this.
Yes, there is the idea of wanting to get to some kind of final seeing or be with This more fully.
When the question: "Is there a me/self/I that is living my life ?" is looked at there arises a whole bunch of other questions: "If I am living my life, then WHAT is this I, WHERE is this I ?" There doesn't appear to be an actual separate I that is doing anything, only the feeling that there is an I. The problem appears to be trying to find out - "Is this feeling/sensation of an I actually some mysterious really hard thing (like a soul or something) to find or is it just a feeling like any other feeling- happiness, sadness, anger, pain, calm etc." Then there is the usual problem - "What is it that is doing the looking, trying to find?" There is this loop going on, or at least it feels that way. In the 'just is' state/experience these questions/seekings are not relevant, everything seems obvious - There is simply this Life, present as it Is, the question "What is this?" is non applicable, it doesn't arise, or if it did, there isn't any feeling of wanting or needing an answer to any question. Kind of like - "Man, it's all cool!" Life present, whatever Life is! Or, however Life happens to be Presenting Itself.




It isn't very complicated and thinking about it muddies the 'water'.
Yes, the water is clear until "I" PUT MY FOOT IN IT, then everything gets muddied! - unclear, what with all the ripples and soil/sand (thoughts/ideas) swirling around. When you're in the 'just is' zone, there doesn't appear to be any 'problems', it's all quite clear.




Can you bring beginners mind to this and approach it afresh?
Yes, good idea! "Who's idea is it, though?" Sweep the ideas aside and start fresh, and there's the problem - who's doing the sweeping? Or, is sweeping just happening - there isn't anyone or anything that does the sweeping, there is simply sweeping.




Forgetting everything you know about this...Can you identify what you desire? Like physical "things" For the sake of conversation it might be loud music, hot rods or chocolate :) It is clear that you are a spiritual seeker and it is top of the list but as the 'water' is a bit unclear in that area what are your other nine?
1. That my wife didn't have to suffer so much pain.
2. That my children are happy, healthy and get 'good' jobs, etc.
3. That I got to spend more time with my mum and dad.

And just "For the sake of conversation" -

4. Find some kind of outlet to express creativity. Though it does appear that life is being that anyway.
5. More money.
6. Go and experience some places around the world.

I can't think of anything else. :)



The second part is to find the "feeling" or "thought" of you, where is it? Somewhere in the body? In the head? In the heart? In thinking? What state? Emotional? Mental? Spiritual? is identified as you? There is an identity doing all this? Can you find it? Get right into the description of it and then when you have hold of the experience, describe it fully.
Honestly, I'm not one for long descriptions - they just get repetitive. There is a sense of me, this me seems to BE this body as it Is functioning right now. Yes, there is the sense that there is a me that is doing something, i.e, getting on with my life, but when this is looked at it kind of becomes apparent that there really isn't a me in the usual sense (That can 'do my' life, otherwise there would be a separate 'me' existing in this body orchestrating how this body functions, but that 'me' cannot be found, only the sense of 'me' appears to be present as the body itself) rather, there is the Presence of this body BEING HERE, NOT DOING BUT BEING AS LIFE ITSELF - Simply existing as it Is.



Is there a coherent "state" which is believed to be you that is created like a "constant" in life?
There isn't any belief that there is a "coherent state" of 'me', simply the sensation that 'something' - call it Life, is present, Being this body.




Sorry for not going into too much detail, it's just that there will be the danger of rambling on and going 'nowhere.'

Mark...Thank you!

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mark_tywharton
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:10 pm

It isn't very complicated and thinking about it muddies the 'water'.
Yes, the water is clear until "I" PUT MY FOOT IN IT, then everything gets muddied! - unclear, what with all the ripples and soil/sand (thoughts/ideas) swirling around. When you're in the 'just is' zone, there doesn't appear to be any 'problems', it's all quite clear.
not sure about that :L

sounds like another expectation

before enlightenment chop wood carry water

after enlightenment chop wood carry water

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mark_tywharton
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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:19 pm

Okay cool, so what would be available if your wife didn't have to suffer so much pain? Again this can be a state or mind or an emotional state. What would be available if your children were happy? healthy? had good jobs? What's the feeling or thought associated with this? What would have happened of you got to spend more time with mum and dad? What does it make available? If it is a feeling, where is the feeling (located)? If it is a thought, where is the thought (located)? What does finding some kind of outlet to express creativity say about the kind of person that you are? How does it resonate with you? What are you left with?

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Re: I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

Postby mark_tywharton » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:24 pm

You say the sense of me seems to be the body as it is functioning right now, good!

So let's try it this way: what is the habitual method of functioning of the body that you believe to be you?

What part of living do you identify with most and present to the world as a continuous or fixed way of being?


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