Looking for guidance

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CPJ
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Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:33 pm

I've been a seeker and philosophy junky. I've done some buddhist meditation, but never really stuck with it for very long. I recently read Jed McKenna's books and was inspired to do the spiritual autolysis that he recommends, which is attempting to write something true. I've written a lot of pages, but could use some more questioning from somebody with some experience. I feel ready for the burning stuff. Anyone interested in setting the fire?

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cosmiK
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:32 pm

CPJ,

I will be your guide.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least every day.
2. I will post questions, and you will answer them.
3. When you answer you answer 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, you try to answer from your direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function. Refer to the link below for instruction:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Let's get started shall we?

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CPJ
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:40 pm

Great! I am ready.

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cosmiK
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:44 pm

Hey CPJ,

Can I get your first name? if you are not comfortable, no problem, but it will help, because the <name> is another aspect of the 'self', and I can use that to our advantage.

Now...

Please remember that I am your guide. I am here to show you how to see for yourself, the illusion of a separate self. Liberation Unleashed's main aim, and the purpose of this forum, is to facilitate a discussion, and investigation, that will result in Awakening from this Illusion.

This is NOT a place where we discuss philosophy, religion and experiences. I ask and give you investigations, you answer and report your findings from your direct experience.

So...

We are going to investigate your experience, and use this investigation as a way of arriving at Truth. It will be simple raw direct observing from you. But before that can begin...

Let's start with the first important Question.

- What are your expectations for Awakening? For seeing in to no-self? What do you think it will give do for you/change your life?

Let's get this started shall we.

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CPJ
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:52 pm

I don't really have any expectations. I used to think it would be a blissed out state, but the more I explore it, I see it as being an observer: able to view experience without being attached to it. I would like to think it would be a fearless way of being. Other than that, my drive is curiosity.

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CPJ
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:53 pm

I forgot. My name is Chris.

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cosmiK
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Hey Chris,

be Mindful of Expectations throughout this whole process. Expectations are attachments to an imagined future or self. They will NOT serve you. If an Expectation arises, notice it as such, and gently drop it. Drop all Expectations. Put all of your focus on this investigation.

What comes up when you read and digest this statement?
What is your response?
&
What do you FEEL?


* There is no YOU. There is no Chris. There never was, and there never will be *

Go!

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CPJ
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:32 pm

Expectations are something that I have been working on for a while. It came up in relationships and I realized expectations lead to heartache in those situations. I would like to say that I've freed myself from them, but when something doesn't work out in my life, that little expectation bugger bites me in the ass.
At any rate, I feel like it is something I do notice.
I realize I have noticed this in thinking about awakening/enlightenment. I conciously say I don't have expectations about it, but sometimes I catch myself in a fantasy about how cool I will be when I wake up.
Chris

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cosmiK
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:37 pm

Please answer the question posed Chris.

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CPJ
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:12 pm

What comes up is there's no future. There is nothing to work towards and no certainty. When I really digest it, I feel freedom, but scared too. I question why I do anything at all.

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cosmiK
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:43 pm

Hey Chris,

In regards to your expectations, all of that is fine. When expectations come up, notice them as expectations, as thoughts, and gently drop them. Part of this process, of Awakening, is the development of maturity, that sees, thoughts as thoughts, that thoughts are just thoughts. Can I get a confirmation that you understand this, as this is an important part of moving forward with this investigation?
What comes up is there's no future. There is nothing to work towards and no certainty. When I really digest it, I feel freedom, but scared too. I question why I do anything at all.
Okay Chris, whatever comes up, whatever you feel, that is what you feel. Notice it, and feel it fully. A part of this process is recognizing protective mechanisms, which are usually signaled by such emotions as Fear & Anxiety. Bring the feeling fully, LOOK right at it (when I say look I mean fully experience it), and Thank it for being there. It is just doing it's job of protection. However, another part of this process, of Awakening, is the development of courage, that questions, what that fear is protecting. So, you are NOT in a jungle, and running from a tiger. If you were, I would say listen to that fear, and run. This time however, is there anything to really be afraid of Chris? Ask the fear what it is protecting? Look behind it. is there anything to protect? Why are you afraid Chris? Don't get in to any overly long winded explanations by the 'mind' my friend... answer based on your visceral feelings and real concerns.

------

While dealing with Fear and such emotions Chris, is a very important part of this process of Awakening, another is REALLY investigating your Experience, in the present moment (which is all there ever is), for the Truth. We will be developing a method of investigation, that takes our Experience, and divides it in to components that we can both investigate. As both of us are part of this human experience, we can agree on certain things. We can agree that there is a Sun and a Moon, right (hopefully you can, lol)? We can also agree that we Experience (everything, anything, always) Reality in a predictable way. I will propose a system, a model, of conceptualizing our Experience, so that we can both test this out together, so that we can both be on the same page, and that you can arrive at Clarity, directly. So...

So, let us cover the way in which we Experience the 'world' and 'ourselves':

seeing
feeling (tactile + kinesthetic)
hearing
tasting
smelling
&
thinking (thoughts, images)

basically, 6 sense streams, or 5senses + 1mind.
also called perception

We will call all of this, Experience.

So there is Experience, and thoughts about it, which is also Experience. There is only Experience.

Now Chris, if you can agree with me, and don't just agree please, walk around, sit, swim, go to space, pick up a dog, sing, jump and check to see that at all times, there are only an amazing combination of these 6 sense streams. Once you can verify that this is indeed how you Experience, how we Experience, then confirm with me, and we can move forward with investigating Reality, and arriving at Truth.

Very excited for this journey.

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CPJ
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:26 pm

Okay. I agree. There are times I experience things differently at different times. Today, outside, I was experiencing the colors of the fall foliage. This is visual, but I think as well, such as labeling the colors (red, yellow) and making judgements (beautiful!) Other senses take a back seat in these times, but I'm still walking, feeling the air on my skin, listening to the person I'm with, tasting the coffee, smelling the air. As I write this, two co-workers are having an argument. I can hear their voices, but their tone brings up feelings of anxiety in me, and in my head I am judging them for going in such circles and for not agreeing on such a seemingly simple subject.
At any rate, at certain times, one sense seems to take over, and the others are there, but I don't always conciously notice them until I put my thought into them, or something grabs my attention.

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cosmiK
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:28 pm

Okay. I agree. There are times I experience things differently at different times.
Chris, are you agreeing, but also kinda disagreeing? If so, we need to clear this up. Please do a few more experiments with Experience and see, that test whether there is just Experience and Thoughts about it, which is also part of Experience. You can skillfully divide these Experiences in to the 6 sense streams I outlined before. Test it, and get back to me, so we can proceed. Very important.
This is visual, but I think as well, such as labeling the colors (red, yellow) and making judgements (beautiful!
Chris, this is good. you are having insight in to the way the 'mind' works. The mechanism is VERY simple, as you have accurately observed. There is sensation, in this sense Vision, and then there is a thought about it (label: red, yellow), and then there is another thought about it (interpretation/judgement: beautiful!). So, can you see that there is Experience, then Thoughts about it? It is important that you use this system of investigation throughout this process. I have found it invaluable even now, after seeing no-self, to investigate everything and everything in the 'universe'.
Other senses take a back seat in these times...
one sense seems to take over, and the others are there...
Yes Chris, some senses seem more at the forefront than other at times. sometimes we are totally immersed in seeing when looking at something beautiful, in taste when tasting some amazing new food, and in hearing when listening to our favorite music. Regardless of this, just notice Chris, that there is Experience, and then Thoughts about it, which is also Experience.
but their tone brings up feelings of anxiety
Yes Chris, there are also feelings. However, upon closer inspection, we can see that affective feelings/emotions are the result of thoughts, specifically dualistic thoughts which interpret Experience in to a Subject/Object or qualitatively judge Experience. What happens when you label something "beautiful"? What happens when you judge your co-workers. This is all fine, and don't force yourself to stop, just notice it. Emotions/Feelings are really sensations and are the results of thoughts colliding with experience.

Let me now if this is comfortable with you, and this system of investigation is confidently True for you, and we can proceed.

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CPJ
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby CPJ » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:26 pm

This feels right. I do agree with what you said about experience. I was just noticing the predominance of certain senses at certain times. I also notice how I feel when experiencing things. For example, I could feel tired (from a physical feeling) and those colors aren't as beautiful (which comes from a thought judgement based on that feeling).
I'm finding this process rewarding. Thank you.

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cosmiK
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:57 pm

Chris,

Good. Remember, there is nothing I can 'say' about Experience. I can only Point you to Experience, and give you skillful ways to discern and divide experience to deconstruct STORIES and FANTASIES <--- as you know, these will NOT help you SEE the Truth. In the end, SEEING this will Awaken you.

Keep using our model of investigations at all time (when circumstances permit of course). Just Gently, and Simply, SEE, LOOK. There is Experience, and THOUGHTS about it, which is also Experience. There is ONLY Experience.

When I say SEE, or LOOK Chris, I mean simply observe. Not observing 'in' 'out' 'here' or 'there', Just simply Observe, based on what? Based on our model of Direct Experience.

Now that we have established a method for us to both look at experience together. We both have these 6 sense streams operating constantly to create our Experience. Now that we have agreed on this, we can investigate the illusion.

So Chris… LOOK right NOW, in your Direct Experience!

Where is Chris? Can you locate this Chris? Find this Chris for me please. Where is this "I"? Where i this "me"? Write out how you find this Chris, this separate self.

feel free to just stand up, maybe walk around, sit, move around, fly to the moon, kiss a friend, sing, dance, and just LOOK, just SEE.

Always, Always, Always, LOOK at Experience, and use the Model to report back to me so that we can both verify together.

Report back to me your investigation.


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