looking for help

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M.I.A.
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looking for help

Postby M.I.A. » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:56 am

Hi,
I'd like to try this process out to see if it can help me find out where I'm still stuck. I have a strong background in mindfulness practice and vipassana. This has really helped me a lot, but there still seems to be some resistance to...I'm not sure what. I'd be grateful for any help, thanks!
Mike

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Re: looking for help

Postby Eloratea » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:48 pm

Hi Mike,

It is good that you have such background. This process of direct inquiry can be of great help too, but it can be also regarded as a step from which „path“ unfolds further.
So it is good you notice all your expectations from this, what it should be or shouldn't be so it doesn't come in way to seeing what already is here, right now.
Only genuine desire for truth and honesty are necessary companions in this looking.

Now, when you look in your direct experience is there you in any way or form?
When you say „I“ what do you refer to?
If you hear that „I“ is just a thought what comes up?

All the best.

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Re: looking for help

Postby M.I.A. » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:52 pm

Hi Eloratea, thank you for responding. Also, thank you for the reminder about expectations, I want to approach this as a beginner.
Now, when you look in your direct experience is there you in any way or form?
No, I can't really say there is. There's a self image which is just that – a constantly shifting bundle of thoughts, memories, habits, intentions, perceptions and feelings. Right now there is knowing. There's inquiry, searching. There's a feeling of dissatisfaction, of something still missing. And also a wanting to give up searching.
When you say „I“ what do you refer to?
A sense of “me” which is in the head. When it's looked at it breaks up, there's no “I” there. Another answer – I'm not really sure.
If you hear that „I“ is just a thought what comes up?
Relaxed calm and subtle happiness, but also a hint of doubt intrudes now and then. I know it's true, but just can't quite believe it or trust it.

thank-you

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Re: looking for help

Postby Eloratea » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:45 pm

No, I can't really say there is. There's a self image which is just that – a constantly shifting bundle of thoughts, memories, habits, intentions, perceptions and feelings. Right now there is knowing. There's inquiry, searching. There's a feeling of dissatisfaction, of something still missing. And also a wanting to give up searching.
What is missing in this moment?
Look deeper. What is feeling of dissatisfaction? If you break down feeling on thought and sensation and leave thought, what stays?
A sense of “me” which is in the head. When it's looked at it breaks up, there's no “I” there. Another answer – I'm not really sure.
If that sensation is not labeled is it than also sense of „me“? Or it is just sense of this experience, aliveness? Can you draw line between you and not-you?
If you hear that „I“ is just a thought what comes up?

Relaxed calm and subtle happiness, but also a hint of doubt intrudes now and then. I know it's true, but just can't quite believe it or trust it.
You don't need to believe it. Here, right now, is there you outside of the thoughts? Was there ever?

Warm regards.

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Re: looking for help

Postby M.I.A. » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:10 am

What is missing in this moment?
Look deeper. What is feeling of dissatisfaction? If you break down feeling on thought and sensation and leave thought, what stays?
Not knowing. Not knowing if “I” am awakened or ever will be. When I see this, it's just “not knowing” and that is okay. Dissatisfaction because of wanting to know. Without thought it's an unpleasant sensation which goes away after a time.
If that sensation is not labeled is it than also sense of „me“? Or it is just sense of this experience, aliveness? Can you draw line between you and not-you?
Oh that's good. And very obvious, now that you point it out! No division can be found between me and not-me.
You don't need to believe it. Here, right now, is there you outside of the thoughts? Was there ever?
Are you trying to tell me that I don't have a problem? ;-) But, but, but, I've spent a lifetime believing I have a problem! (laughing). Seriously, is there me outside of the thoughts...? Not that I can see. Not the thoughts either, there is just thinking. There is pain, sorrow over losing the illusion, I suppose, or seeing all the unhelpful habits and behaviors laid bare. Now I know that these things just have to be held patiently as newer more helpful responses take their places. For me waking up has unfolded slowly over the past year, and I've had a hard time balancing the relative with the ultimate, and coming to terms with what wakefulness is really like – as opposed to the myths.

Yes yes, this is already helping me to see the attachment to getting something (enlightenment). It's helping me see that I have been still trying to get rid of “me” rather than just see through it and not believe the story. In other words, seeing that sense of being alive as you call it (I like that better than “sense of me”) as a problem rather than just another arising.

Peace and gratitude

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Re: looking for help

Postby Eloratea » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:15 am

Hey Mike, this is going well :)
You are beginning to see where it comes from - the talk about anatta, no-self…
Are you trying to tell me that I don't have a problem? ;-) But, but, but, I've spent a lifetime believing I have a problem! (laughing).
Mind game, cosmic joke, Maya…
Seriously, is there me outside of the thoughts...? Not that I can see.
Is there anyone looking, or it is just looking?
Not the thoughts either, there is just thinking. There is pain, sorrow over losing the illusion, I suppose, or seeing all the unhelpful habits and behaviors laid bare. Now I know that these things just have to be held patiently as newer more helpful responses take their places. For me waking up has unfolded slowly over the past year, and I've had a hard time balancing the relative with the ultimate, and coming to terms with what wakefulness is really like – as opposed to the myths.
Let all the images that may arise now, flow without paying much attention, but also without resistance. And no need for special effort to figure it all now intellectually. Most important is to feel whatever arise. Pure, row sensations; pure energy.
Yes yes, this is already helping me to see the attachment to getting something (enlightenment). It's helping me see that I have been still trying to get rid of “me” rather than just see through it and not believe the story. In other words, seeing that sense of being alive as you call it (I like that better than “sense of me”) as a problem rather than just another arising.
Bingo! :)
When you look now in direct experience is there“ you“, is there experiencer, or just experience, thoughts included? See how thinking invents „me“ than belief in separate entity arises and gap between you and rest of the life and imagination goes on and on?
Look around throughout the day. How actually everything unfolds effortlessly and quietly without belief in little voice in head, in separate self managing life. Everything staying the same, yet being perceived slightly differently.

With Love.

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Re: looking for help

Postby M.I.A. » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:25 pm

Let all the images that may arise now, flow without paying much attention, but also without resistance. And no need for special effort to figure it all now intellectually. Most important is to feel whatever arise. Pure, row sensations; pure energy.
This is just the advice I need right now because the conceptualizing is trying to take charge of the realization and make it into something "I" got or understand. Thank you!
When you look now in direct experience is there“ you“, is there experiencer, or just experience, thoughts included? See how thinking invents „me“ than belief in separate entity arises and gap between you and rest of the life and imagination goes on and on?
There is just experience and it is not self. And more - the experience is the world, it's not separate. There is no division between knowing and what is known - words cannot adequately express this.
Look around throughout the day. How actually everything unfolds effortlessly and quietly without belief in little voice in head, in separate self managing life. Everything staying the same, yet being perceived slightly differently.
You've killed me. Thank you! :)
Love and Peace to you

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Re: looking for help

Postby Eloratea » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:18 am

Was there anything to be killed in the first place?
:)

Let me know if you feel that shift happened and that you ready to answer kind of final forum questions.
Or there might be still some doubts and issues you would like to go into?

Much Love.

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Re: looking for help

Postby M.I.A. » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:27 pm

Was there anything to be killed in the first place?
That's a trick question! ;-) but no, of course not.
Let me know if you feel that shift happened and that you ready to answer kind of final forum questions.
Or there might be still some doubts and issues you would like to go into?
Yes, a shift has definitely happened. I think I need some time to adjust. There have been cessations and energy surges, tingling sensations, and awareness just doesn't want to go to sleep. So I need some rest. Also I have contacted my regular teacher and he's going to look over my journal entries for this time. Can we meet back here in a week and take it from there?

Thank you for doing this work, you've really helped me.

All the best

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Re: looking for help

Postby Eloratea » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:07 pm

Can we meet back here in a week and take it from there?
Sure, if you feel so.

I will leave you with questions. Answer them honestly when ready or let me know how it is.


Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

How does it feel to see this?

What was the last bit that made you see through the illusion of separate self?



With Love.

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Re: looking for help

Postby M.I.A. » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:09 am

Hi Eloratea,
Perhaps I'm too quick to take a break here...I apologize for any confusion. It seems you want to be sure, I do too. Can we forget about taking a break and keep working? I want to know if I've actually reached the truth of this, and I really appreciate your diligence.

I spent the past day or two clearly seeing the oneness of everything, how there is just knowing or awareness and it's not here or there. How the “movie” of the world that the senses and mind creates cannot be separated from a “me” somehow. Any line drawn must ultimately be arbitrary and artificial – that is, conceptual. This felt really good.

Now there is a little contraction, but still a lot of equanimity. I wonder if the equanimity is obscuring some attachment still. Now as I write this however the contraction doesn't seem to be a problem, it's okay, it's part of the experience – who can walk around their whole life in a non-dual bliss party? This doesn't seem to be a realistic expectation. Somehow I'm still feeling (knowing!) this connection with everything too, even if it is not so crystal clear in every moment now.
Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, but there is an ego function which allows action as a human in the world. It's important to respect its needs for dignity, and if we hope to be happy its important for its actions to be in harmony with love – a natural morality or ethics. This is not a rigid code or set of rules, its needs are expressed as each circumstance unfolds. But this is all empty of inherent existence because everything which arises is dependent on some “thing” else. It looks more like a constantly changing pattern of energy to me. Was there ever a “me”? No. This is a memory, a habit. I cannot say what “I” am. I'm everything, the whole world – and absolutely nothing at the same time. This is what it looks like to me now.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
The illusion of separate self is painful. It is the belief that the mind's choosing of this over that is deciding something for “me”, or that this function is “me”. It's the belief that in looking there “must be someone looking”.

It starts with discrimination, it starts when a new arising is not embraced with love and acceptance – when it's either grasped as something lasting and wonderful or pushed away as something not acceptable. It begins every moment we forget that what arises is impermanent, not self, and not capable of providing lasting satisfaction, not a place we can stand on.

It works like a closed reinforcement loop. It maintains “itself” through judgment: “this is good”, “this is bad”, “this I don't care about” (or “this I don't even see, let's ignore it”). A lot of it is maintained by an unwillingness to experience unpleasantness or uncertainty. It's also maintained by fear.
How does it feel to see this?
Amazement. Happiness.
What was the last bit that made you see through the illusion of separate self?
When you asked the question “if that sensation is not labeled, is it then also “sense of me”? Poof! Then it was seen. Calling it the "sense of me" had been keeping me looking there for some kind of secret which I was sure was hidden there. The "secret" turned out to be that my perception of this fabricated sensation was reinforcing the notion that there was actually something there!

May you be well

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Re: looking for help

Postby Eloratea » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:35 am

Hey Mike,

thank you for the answers.
Certainly this will take some time to settle in, stabilize, unfold further...

Here is one question from another guide: when you talk about ego function... where it comes from?
Is it direct experience or some conjecture of the mind?

Thoughts keep trying connect it with some existing beliefs, assumptions...notice this movement, let it be and let it go. And keep coming back in direct experience, here, right now, questioning thoughts.

:)
Till later.

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Re: looking for help

Postby M.I.A. » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:35 pm

thank you for the answers.
You're welcome! Thank you for your patience and understanding! :)
Certainly this will take some time to settle in, stabilize, unfold further...
It's fine. The doubts have vanished. I remembered that every time there's been a path moment (further awakening) in the past, there's been doubt and uncertainty. This time feels finished though. Any uncertainty over not self is finally gone. The tendency in the past was to take a stand, and now there is a complete unwillingness to do so. When the mind wants to make something out of it like “oh look, now 'I'm' enlightened!” there is dispassion and compassion toward that grasping. In fact compared to past openings, the thought is hardly arising at all, and lacks the compelling intensity it once had. There really is no interest in being anything. I just want to get on with my life and contemplate how I could best help others.

It's a great relief really, now I can sit in meditation and just enjoy it and let things be – whether further insights arise or not. I love this, this peace of not having to get anything. Yesterday I had not slept most of the night because of energy surges and wakefulness. I finally slept for 3 or 4 hours and woke up with a splitting headache and feeling contracted. But in spite of a little confusion it was really fine. I didn't freak out about missing sleep, there was patience and total acceptance of how things were, as there is now.
Here is one question from another guide: when you talk about ego function... where it comes from?
Is it direct experience or some conjecture of the mind?
The ego function comes from both learned behaviors, habitual responses, and no doubt from biology. What I meant by it specifically is how we set boundaries, limits on our interactions with others. Obviously the fewer boundaries we maintain, the greater the potential for happiness, because this is in harmony with the truth of things. I do not mean any solid, discreet kind of thing. My comments on ego function were just a clumsy way of saying that both relative and ultimate truth must be respected to live in the world. When we experience a choice, which will continue even after awakening, we are experiencing this, even if ultimately there is no one making the choice. The more I write about it, the more conjectural it becomes!
Thoughts keep trying connect it with some existing beliefs, assumptions...notice this movement, let it be and let it go. And keep coming back in direct experience, here, right now, questioning thoughts.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm doing. This is a good reminder, thank you.
Eloratea, I owe you and all of my teachers and guides a debt of gratitude. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
With deepest regards,
Mike

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Re: looking for help

Postby Eloratea » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:36 am

Hello Mike,
thanks again for the answers and now we have finished here :)

I will send you pm for further contacts if you will be interested.

Much Love and best wishes!

http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf


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