Going ALL the way...

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donnalouxxooxx
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Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:37 am

I think I will tell my story in bullets for simplicity
I think I have seen through the separate self, but am afraid it is an incomplete seeing as awareness is not yet abiding
I would like someone else’s eyes to see if there is any ‘self’ delusion here
the movie of my life has been crazy full of tons of trauma and drama
recently it was realized that all my intense suffering happened because I was a lover of truth and there was none to be had until recently
I have devoted the past 2.5 years to heavy duty inquiry, before that I was seeking big time
2.5 years ago, I gave up seeking relief from a 33 year long battle with debilitating chronic pain and started looking at the nature of my own suffering
I stopped believing in anything that wasn’t my direct experience and started questioning everything
since I could not work full time, I lived on trust and made studying my own suffering my full time job
I saw that there was an anatomy to the distress: open, raw energy---sensation (story of body)---thought---emotion-belief---assumption/action
I kept falling back, realizing that everything I projected to be out there was based on an energy I was unwilling to feel because the mind labeled it as something to fear
The distinction between pain and suffering became clear and the suffering ended.
I studied the nature of how attention was being paid and when attention diffused sufficiently, I could see body as object with all other objects, I experienced the dissolution of a sense of self
I kept noticing that there was a narrow focus on thought and that this narrow focus prevented me from seeing life as it is
I practiced endlessly diffusing the attention every time it was narrowed
In this, I saw and heard the silence from which they arise
I saw the space in which objects seemingly exist
I experienced timelessness in which thoughts of time arise
I saw the stillness which holds all movement
I realized these were all one field that held the body/mind rather than the other way around
I couldn’t separate however the sense of self and the knowing of these experiences, I was experiencing and the experienced
The concept of inside and outside completely was seen through
I started investigating the fields of experiencing separately… I noticed that in the field of hearing, sounds appeared, but they were not ‘made’ of anything and could not be distinguished from the field in which they appeared. Sounds only appeared as solid when combined with thought and image. And all sound were happening in me.
It was the same in each field, except seeing. That has not been penetrated. It is still and intellectual understanding. I can see that the ‘matter’ is given it’s density only by sensation and perception, but it has not registered like the appearances in the ‘other’ fields.
Enough of the fields were examined however to see that reality as I knew it is totally an illusion made out of ‘overlapping’ these fields. The fields of seeing, thinking, hearing, smelling, feeling, being and time, when combined, make things appear ‘real’ when in fact they are not made from anything I can see but the awareness of them!
So, boom! It is clearly seen this picture called life is JUST LIKE a dream, thus the expression ‘in the image and likeness’.
Now, here’s the deal. This is pretty much all done when the body is very still. The moment the body starts to move, bam, back in the dream.
I am so on fire to go all the way, that I barely get out of bed sometimes. (I do all my introspection in bed.)
It’s like I have seen what I am not, but I AM!
Recently, in this new understanding, it seems the raw open energy I was talking about is what the dream is made of. The moment that energy is claimed by the separate self, it says, YES! So be it! You claim to be limited, it is so!
I saw the only reason the separate me ever wanted anything was because of a frequency, a frequency when viewed now, is always available. How ludicrous to think that any ‘thing’ in the world has any power to give me a thing. It’s so friggin’ silly! How can something that’s made of nothing give something that’s made of nothing something? Ha ha ha ha!
It seems this energy, when freed from the confines of beliefs becomes ecstasy or peace, whatever I want it to be, really. Not the ‘I’, Donna, but the I who’s dreaming the dream. It seems I am the Ultimate Artist and whatever I label the energy to be, it is. That now feels like “me”.
I have no attachments to anyone or anything. The desire for this is so unquenchable, it is subsuming everything else. If someone were to say you have to give up everything you love in order to know this, I would. I know that most likely will not be the case, but if it were, I’d walk into nothingness. It’s the only thing that is really going on. My love is no longer dependent on any object. It’s right here and was here all the time.
I ask for guidance to have these things be remembered at all times, not just in deep contemplation.
I am ready to burn everything up in the fire of the Truth.
I have been sharing attention training with others to help them recognize that they are so much more than they think they are. Although it has just been a few folks, all have seen in a matter of minutes that who they were referring to as themselves was merely a point of view in the view. Using attention it is quite simple.
I question whether this is appropriate since there is still a flopping back and forth between the dreamstate and true knowing.
I am excited to hear from you.

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donnalouxxooxx
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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:26 am

p.s. The idea of letting go of all control is the juiciest notion that has ever sailed through.'FREEDOM!

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby Eloratea » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:03 am

Hi Donna,

if you hear that "I" is just a thought as any other what comes up?

Is there you right now having this experience, or it is just experience?

When the body moves look is there you moving it, or it just moves. Is there you anywhere inside or outside managing it?
IS there you doing the breathing, or it is just breathing?
Is there anyone looking behind the eyes, or it is just looking?

Best regards.

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:00 am

Dear Eloratea,
Thank you so much for writing. YEA!!!!! Ha, there's the thoughts that "I" am grateful for the response, followed by
I" am eager to dive deeply into these questions." "I" was getting antsy.

if you hear that "I" is just a thought as any other what comes up?

If there's just one thought, or if the "I" thoughts are moving slowly enough (usually when the body is still thus far), each one disappears and it becomes obvious that they disappear into silence. In the silent gaps, then usually there is feeling apparent. There are little sensations within the field of feeling mind labels. There seems to be one 'cloud' of 'energy' that holds all the sensations that come and go. There is a sense of I to this cloud, but it is seen that is just the mind's label as well. All thoughts of I are merely labels for what arises.

When the body is in action however, everything speeds up and with this physical movement of the body, thought speeds up and the personality reforms itself and is believed. Is this just a 'ripening' so to speak? Will it become abiding? Is there something missed?

Is there you right now having this experience, or it is just experience?

No, there is experience and within that experience, thoughts of ownership take place. It seems like there are decisions being made often, but in looking a couple of years back, it was obvious the event happens and ever so quickly as to go unnoticed, thought lays claim to it. It is so subtle and again, this observation only happens thus far when the body is at rest.

It seems if "I" had passed through the gate, this recognition would be abiding at all times, no?

When the body moves look is there you moving it, or it just moves. Is there you anywhere inside or outside managing it?
IS there you doing the breathing, or it is just breathing?
Is there anyone looking behind the eyes, or it is just looking?

This has just opened up as a clear seeing. Typing happens. Words on the screen happen. There is looking. There is understanding.

There is a noticing that thought will come and lay claim by instruction. It will say, "Is there a me answering or is there just answering?" This causes suspicion that the recognition is intellectual.

And there still seems to be 'others', but that is ridiculous because that too is a label.

Why is it so easily forgotten???
If this is through the gate, why doesn't it feel like it???
Just seems like it would be abiding.

Also what is happening now is it seems that there is a certain 'control' over the way the aforementioned 'cloud' of energy (no longer associated with a body or mind) is interpreted. When limitation is seen, the conversation in the mind goes something like, "This is not anger. This is only energy. There is no one this energy is happening to. This is the energy of pure potential. What do "I" wish it to be? - pause- ecstasy, love, yes. I am unlimited and the creator of this dream..." Then the old label gives way to the new definition and that raw energy tranforms itself into the new frequency. It is not Donnalou doing this. Donnalou it seems was made of limited thoughts and part of the dream. This feels outside of the theatre so to speak. There is something recognizing the unlimited nature of things and the malleability of the holographic quality of reality.

Can you speak about this in your direct experience, please?

I SOOOOOO appreciate your time and input.

xxooxx

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby Eloratea » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:29 am

If there's just one thought, or if the "I" thoughts are moving slowly enough (usually when the body is still thus far), each one disappears and it becomes obvious that they disappear into silence. In the silent gaps, then usually there is feeling apparent. There are little sensations within the field of feeling mind labels. There seems to be one 'cloud' of 'energy' that holds all the sensations that come and go. There is a sense of I to this cloud, but it is seen that is just the mind's label as well. All thoughts of I are merely labels for what arises.
Yes, thoughts just label the experience. Interpreting it as „mine“. And thoughts always come one by one. It is not possible to think more than one thought at the same time. Check!
This cloud is sense of aliveness, presence, awareness, labeled as sense of self. But, actually it is not separate entity, it is just this seamless experience.
When the body is in action however, everything speeds up and with this physical movement of the body, thought speeds up and the personality reforms itself and is believed. Is this just a 'ripening' so to speak? Will it become abiding? Is there something missed?
It is „your“ experience; every experience is more or less different and certainly unique. Just notice what happens. This investigation is focused only on looking if there is a separate self in life? When walking, just notice what is happening. Mind projects separate self till it does. But once you clearly see it as illusion thinking patterns are changing.
No, there is experience and within that experience, thoughts of ownership take place. It seems like there are decisions being made often, but in looking a couple of years back, it was obvious the event happens and ever so quickly as to go unnoticed, thought lays claim to it. It is so subtle and again, this observation only happens thus far when the body is at rest.
Decision happen. And it feels as you make them. It is ok. But, look, actually, they just happen. You can't choose what you choose.
Decisions are thoughts, and as all thoughts labels coming after the actual fact.
It seems if "I" had passed through the gate, this recognition would be abiding at all times, no?
Doesn't have to be the case. Thoughts in form of doubts may arise again. But once you see it it can't be unseen and you have always this tool of looking in direct experience.
Why is it so easily forgotten???
If this is through the gate, why doesn't it feel like it???
Just seems like it would be abiding.
Relax. Feel whatever arise, without paying to much attention on thoughts.
And leave the expectations how this should be. Expectations may come from the same place as the self illusion. Things are as they are. Just see that what already is clearly. Or: let the clear seeing happen.
Also what is happening now is it seems that there is a certain 'control' over the way the aforementioned 'cloud' of energy (no longer associated with a body or mind) is interpreted. When limitation is seen, the conversation in the mind goes something like, "This is not anger. This is only energy. There is no one this energy is happening to. This is the energy of pure potential. What do "I" wish it to be? - pause- ecstasy, love, yes. I am unlimited and the creator of this dream..." Then the old label gives way to the new definition and that raw energy tranforms itself into the new frequency. It is not Donnalou doing this. Donnalou it seems was made of limited thoughts and part of the dream. This feels outside of the theatre so to speak. There is something recognizing the unlimited nature of things and the malleability of the holographic quality of reality.
Let what unfolds, unfold freely. Thoughts naturally try to explain the experience. Let it be.

Experiences of others are now not relevant. As said, each expression of life is unique.
Once you are „confirmed“ on the forum, there is opportunity to share the experience with others.

When ready answer: is there you in any way or form, was there ever?

With best wishes!

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:43 pm

Yes, I will keep looking and get back to you.
Our dialogue has already been of benefit.
I SOOOO appreciate your response.

WOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOO NO YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Yipppppppppppppppp EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE NO MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby Eloratea » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:30 am

Hey Donna :)

Could you describe your actual experience here, right now, how it looks like?
Is there "you" talking with "me" here?

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:01 am

Hello my dearest guide.

Could you describe your actual experience here, right now, how it looks like?
Is there "you" talking with "me" here?
Actual experience: In the visual field, there is a scene playing out in a room filled with objects. Window, trees, desk, table, body, fingers typing letters, making symbols appear on a screen.
In the field of thinking, the words being written are spoken as they are written, so they are heard in the field of hearing. There is an idea that there is someone, you, to whom this is being written, yet it is obvious that there is not a 'you' in anything other than a thought field except thinking. It is the same with I... There is only a reference to "I" in thinking.

Thought just wandered, creating a future scenario, an dream-like image that momentarily veiled the current moment.

In the field of feeling, there is a cloud of energy in which feelings and sensations arising that thought takes ownership of. The mind labels the feeling as grumpy and makes it mine. "I feel 'off' today." Then there are accompanying sensations that 'feel' like they are happening to 'me'. When there is a close looking, the sensations are just happening. So "me' is the label the mind gives to a sensation as well.

It was realized yesterday that the chronic pain that has been experienced for 30+ years is probably the culprit for a lot of 'me-ness'. There is pain in my back, pain in my neck, pain in my knees etc... When there is a clear seeing, I can see that the idea of a location of the label of pain makes it so. If the visual field is taken out by closing the eyes and the label of pain is ignored, what is left is raw sensation... no my or no back.

It is strange, it feels like there is an 'I' who is examining these different aspects. Something is definitely looking, or better said, there is looking.

The thought, "I am confusing myself" just arose.

The phone rang in the midst and there is such a distinct difference, like the looking goes right out the window and all the talk of 'me' and 'you' just sucks the recognition back in!

There is gratitude arising for your assistance. Thank you so much.

There is also a noticing of how sentences are being constructed... rather than saying I am constructing sentences... like a need to do it right. Ugh.

That's it for now.

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby Eloratea » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:16 am

Hi Donna,
It is good that you noticed that you are talking with two guides :) Will see how we proceed further.

Anyway it is about your looking into actual experience.
And this is about seeing illusion for what it is and how it manifests. It is not about deleting it, neither it is possible. Story about Donna and here interactions with other people continue. But once you clearly see that this story is just in thoughts, not more real than story of some movie character, perception shifts.
Who is there to care how the experience will look like in the future?
Is there anyone? Is there anyone having control over the experience, or the experience unfolds according to many various conditions?
Look, again and again. Check all the story about „me“; what makes them really yours?

Warm greetings and best wishes!

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:57 pm

Hi E,
I was guided to stay in conversation with you as my only guide and am great with that,
I will sit with these words and will share the findings.
Is it helpful to review the book or other posts while engaged in this conversation?

xxooxx

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby Eloratea » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Is it helpful to review the book or other posts while engaged in this conversation?
For some it is best to focus on their own looking, but for some was also helpful reading something...so I leave it up to you. Be honest with yourself, so you will discover what is just distraction and what is helpful.

Looking forward to your new discoveries :),
Stay well.

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:49 am

Good evening, E.
It was an interesting day. I do not remember which story it was from the The Gateless Gatecrashers, but in it Ilona told some one that the process might be a gentle unfolding and that the seeing would deepen with each question. Today there was an ease that had not been noticed before. There was more looking and less brain chatter. There is a heightened awareness of the story of Donna going on almost constantly in thoughts.
And this is about seeing illusion for what it is and how it manifests.
your help is requested on this one...
There will be a thought or an idea followed by a decision. "Shall I go to the dance or not?" It seems the decision is made after the choice arises to do one thing or another. This seems to be the most insidious piece... "I" am making a decision. Or something simple as what to make for dinner... there will be a pondering on the menu and then later that meal will be made. Boy, oh boy, it sure feels like there's an I making decisions Can you give me some clarity on this whole illuion of choice/decision making, please? It's a sticky one.
Who is there to care how the experience will look like in the future?
Is there anyone? Is there anyone having control over the experience, or the experience unfolds according to many various conditions?
Look, again and again. Check all the story about „me“; what makes them really yours?

Any thought of future only happens in thought or image. That is plain to see. When those thought streams arise, they have a veiling affect on the present moment reality. It is much like if a movie was projected onto a crystal ball which already contained another movie. A movie on top of a movie. The one in the crystal ball is still there, but goes unnoticed because attention is only being paid to the projection. It can be noted that time is happening in timelessness, so it bears to reason that any image "Donna" is happening in timelessness as well. Donna only happens now as a thought.

All I can find when I look for someone is a combination of thoughts, images, sensations and perceptions.

The next question is quite a doozey. Even though traces of Donna still exist, there has been a clear seeing of the combinatory pattern of which she and everything else is made of. In close inspection of the individual fields of experiencing, it became obvious that no thing has an independent nature nor is it substantial in and of itself. Every thing seems to be made out of experiencing. It seems experiencing expresses itself as a sensory field and that field gives rise to an appearance in that field. For example experiencing modulates itself into a field of hearing and the from that, sounds emerge. This is true also for all the other senses as well.

When 'peeled back', and there are no sounds, hearing is still present, but it no longer knows itself as hearing for hearing i no longer necessary. Only experiencing remains. This is evident in all fields except feeling, but it ceratinly stands to reason that the same thing applies.

I would guess this is what is referred to as emptiness or the void, where nothing exists materially, but everything exists potentially.

Here is the question. Since the field of feeling has not been seen through and there still seems to be an "I" as experiencing itself, does that mean there is still identification with feeling or is it just a thought again laying claim to life itself?

This may sound intellectual and yet it comes from direct seeing and insight.

And it appears that this raw, benign energy of experiencing itself, an aliveness for lack of a better word, is what is creating everything. It seems to take a thought and create a reality around it in which Donna becomes 'real'.

Whew, that was difficult to put into words.

Lastly, you wrote:
the experience unfolds according to many various conditions?
I am not sure what that means. Could you say it in a different way so that it can be looked at, please?

Thanks so much for your guidance.

All the way, big team!

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:10 am

One more thing, please.
before it was realized that there were two guides, I wrote this to ilona. It was suggested that I just work with you before it was addressed.

This body has experienced chronic pain for over 30 years and for the longest time, there was an ownership of that pain. "My back hurts", "How am 'I' going to take care of this?" No attempt to find relief EVER worked more than temporarily for more than 30 years!

Anyway, there was a decision to give up all searching for relief and a desire to study the nature of suffering. Because of this deep looking, suffering about the pain ended, but it seems like maybe a lot of the 'me-ness' still resides in the sensations that the mind labels body and pain.

The 'pain' is almost constant and has been for 3 decades.

good night,
d

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby Eloratea » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:36 am

This seems to be the most insidious piece... "I" am making a decision. Or something simple as what to make for dinner... there will be a pondering on the menu and then later that meal will be made. Boy, oh boy, it sure feels like there's an I making decisions Can you give me some clarity on this whole illusion of choice/decision making, please? It's a sticky one.
Hey Donna, sure it feels that way, you are not robot, nor zombie. This is much more realistic illusion :) Just have a relaxed look when decisions happen - they just happen! They are made, but not by you.
„You“ is one of the thoughts, as well as thought that comes after decision – that you have made it. Yet you need to see it for yourself.
It happens fast and unnoticed if not payed attention, as with TV images when brain can't see discontinuity of images.
So it is like you can choose, but you can't choose, what you will choose. :)
There is will, there are thoughts, but they come from „invisible field“ and disappear there and there is no separate self controlling them.

All I can find when I look for someone is a combination of thoughts, images, sensations and perceptions.
Actually it is very vague, all this combination, isn't it? Very elusive, there is no clear stable image, it is very noisy. Actually it is only that. Noise covering empty clarity.
And once it is seen, it doesn't cover it, they can coexist. Images are becoming kind of transparent.
I would guess this is what is referred to as emptiness or the void, where nothing exists materially, but everything exists potentially.
Emptiness also means that nothing exists independently, inherently, but comes into being when required conditions come into being. Yet, that emptiness which is no-thing manifests as this aliveness, awareness making it all possible and being experienced.
The experience unfolds according to many various conditions?

I am not sure what that means. Could you say it in a different way so that it can be looked at, please?
If you look in the experience in this moment you trace for yourself what different causes are making it exactly the way it is. And of course you can't even trace it all. But you can see that if some of those conditions would be different it would be different experience. Conditions are all the parameters from the weather, to body condition, mood..etc.
Step back from the belief in someone controlling experience and just look how it unfolds…how it always was.
Since the field of feeling has not been seen through and there still seems to be an "I" as experiencing itself, does that mean there is still identification with feeling or is it just a thought again laying claim to life itself?
What do you mean by field of feeling? Sense of aliveness, presence?
What is it prior to being labeled with „I“? Is it Donna experiencing itself? Or it is life experiencing story of Donna?
Identification is thought being believed.
And if there is no belief in „I“ - thought, what stays?

With Love.

p.s. regarding your pain issue, I don't think it is much relevant for this inquiry. It is part of the current story of Donna. But loving acceptance of everything that arises in ones experience, as it arises in here and now, without telling much story about it is certainly beneficial.

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Re: Going ALL the way...

Postby donnalouxxooxx » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:00 pm

Good morning, Eloratea,
Ohhhhhh, grrrrrrrr. There has been deep, deep looking all morning, just lying here for hours, looking, to no avail it seems.

Has all this prior seeing just occurred in thought, that reality is transparent and made out of nothing but energy?
Even when these words are being written, it is seen that the thoughts are dictating what is being said. They words sound themselves out as the fingers type. The habitual "I" noticed or "I" am feeling frustrated is stopped dead in its tracks. There is recognition that this "I" is happening only in thought. Then it is translated by thought and replaced with 'it is noticed' or 'there are feelings of anger'... when writing is taking place. Is the mind just being frigging PC and forbidding any real seeing from happening? It is not clear at all.

Has this whole thing been intellectualized? It's almost sickening. Is the delusion that thick?

The thoughts say, "I am so tired of this. I just want to wake the F... up!" and it is perfectly obvious this is happening in a thought which disappears as fast as it came. this does not feel like clear seeing. There is no sense of well-being.

Is it that the body obeys the thoughts? The thoughts are frustrated so the feelings and sensations follow?

Sometimes they don't. Sometimes there are thoughts that "I" am frustrated but upon looking that is not so.

When there was an examination of decision making, there was an inability to move a certain body part without a thought. To do a movement willfully, the words were needed, almost as if attention needed to focus on the object before it responded. The hand made a fist when the thought 'make a fist' appeared. So free will seems to be a function of thought in combination with an action.

Yet the body moves on it's own without thought the rest of the time.

There may have been more confusion created than clear seeing.

It's all a jumble.

I have been scheduled for a webinar with Rupert Spira for quite some time tomorrow morning. There is a huge commitment to being in integrity with this process until it is done. Shall I cancel it?

with much love,
d


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