Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

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Keleki
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Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:30 pm

Hello,

I've been on the path for, well...as long as I can remember. And have done the typical never-ending (seemingly) quest of seeking. Since finding this site, I have been pondering what my life would be like without that never-ending story of looking for something that is right in front of me.

My question of Before? At? Thru? is a genuine one...if one had to hazard a guess, I would say that I am at the gate and moving thru. My feeling on that is based on what my life has been like for the last 2 years...pretty much outright CHAOS...but yet also so very beautiful. The sheer amount of "coincidences", "synchronicity" , miracles and outright fun is beyond incredible...truly, life is amazing. From the viewpoint of the self, it looks like a big mess and yet, there is a piece of me (hard to find a way to adequately describe this with words) that KNOWS that it is not true and that all the so-called chaos is nothing more than rumors and that ultimately nothing can truly HURT who I am at my core.

On the flip side, I appear to still be searching somehow and often feel frustrated and pissed off that everything is NOT ROSY (which, of course is a STORY, which is clear from each moment.) I also seem to be surrounded by people who wish to CONVINCE me that I am not living in REALITY, that I should be DOING SOMETHING, TAKING CHARGE, TAKING CONTROL. And, at rare times, I believe that, too...but not wholeheartedly...the scare tactics just aren't that effective any more.

At any rate, I would love and appreciate a little guidance on the path and thank you in advance for the assistance. Paying it forward is a beautiful love story.

Keleki


I'm over half-way through Gateless Gatecrashers and I'm fascinated and seeing "myself" all over the place there.

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Chris7
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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Chris7 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:11 am

Dear Keleki

I would be happy help guide you.

The agreement is we will both to try to post once a day, and be as honest and direct as possible. I'll ask a question, you answer, and we go from there, until we are both satisfied that you have seen past the illusion of a separate self.

It is best if you stop any spiritual practices including reading any spiritual literature during this period. That way there will be no distractions and we can keep our focus clear and sharp. Also, please only relay your direct experience when replying to questions rather than referring to prior knowledge and understandings.

Can we begin with a couple of questions to see how close you are to the Gate?

1. Is there an ‘I’, a separate self, to be found any where in reality?

2. Can you locate an ‘I’ anywhere in your body/mind?

3. When decisions are made by you in your life who or what would you say actually makes them?

4. What are your expectations of what it will be like after becoming liberated – of going through the Gate?

There is no right or wrong answer here, the questions are simply to give me an idea of how close to the Gate you actually are.

It’s more important you use only your direct investigation when considering the answers.

Looking forward to you answers

Chris

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Keleki
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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:45 pm

Hello Chris,

And, thank you so much for stepping forward to help! Much appreciated.

So....here goes...

1. Is there an ‘I’, a separate self, to be found any where in reality?

When looking, there is nothing there except a story of identification as self. It's the identification of self that is paining said self, as it were..

2. Can you locate an ‘I’ anywhere in your body/mind?

No, I cannot except again as a story/rumor that vacillates between a very entertaining drama and also at other times, it is the fish asking what's all this talk about water? LOL

3. When decisions are made by you in your life who or what would you say actually makes them?

Oh boy, that one touched a nerve (whose I'm not sure! ; )) Okay, the self that calls itself I would like to say yes of course I have been making all these decisions and that I am at the helm of my own life AND my experience of the last 2 years proves otherwise because MUCH control has been lost and many, many beliefs have been dropped and when I look back over the amazingness and the miracles that are still unfolding, it's clear that there's no way "I" did all that ...the character of Keleki was simply and still is along for the ride. (Thankfully so much as been fun and beautiful...along with lots of baggage dropped along the way!) : )

4. What are your expectations of what it will be like after becoming liberated – of going through the Gate?
There's a fear that I will have to give up what I actually do find helpful in my life. Isn't that crazy? And, I get it's just a fearful thought...

Well, there you have it...looking forward to your reply and thanks again, so much!

Keleki

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Chris7 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:17 pm

Hi Keleki

Thank you for your reply. I would say you are at the Gate and just need a final push to cross through it.

In order for you to better appreciate what going through the gate looks like here is something for you to consider. After doing so you may know for yourself you really are ready to take the fall:

First of all liberation is different for everyone. It appears that we are all seduced by the stories of those famous ‘enlightened’ ones we encounter in non-dual circles. They recount wondrous experiences of a complete falling away, often tied-in with supernatural/mystical visions. Also some of these have never even considered a spiritual path prior to this.

There are also those who have these amazing visions, but are still strongly identified with the self. Because of the experiences of such people a lifelong following and visits to satsang after satsang, retreats, literature reading, etc. etc. is embarked upon by the student/seeker, often with no liberation ever accomplished, as they seek to emulate.

This is one extreme. At the other end of the spectrum there is simply seeing/knowing by ones direct investigation that there is no such thing as a self, ‘I’. No fireworks, no bands of Angelic choirs, just a simple, straightforward seeing through the illusion. In the case of the former (mystical/Oneness) this experience has been followed by a period of adjustment and sometimes going through the ‘dark night of the soul’. And in the latter, there is what can be described as a deepening or a falling, where after the initial breakthrough a gradual (or even a steep) falling away of conditioning, resistance, beliefs etc. And, of course, there is everything in between the two.

There is neither a self (nor a no-self) to be found anywhere in existence. You have looked and cannot find this phantom.

What I would like you to do next is look a little deeper by pretending you have no memory, and so everything your identity relies on has gone. Spend a portion of your time whenever the opportunity arises, or better still take a walk in nature if you can, pretending as though you don’t know anything. You are unable to label or judge as you have no idea what anything is called and have no preconceived concepts. In other words, do not view things from the perspective of subject (you) and object.

So, for example, if you see a tree, do not name it a tree, a Sycamore (or whatever), do not label it big or small, beautiful or crooked, just let the experience become part of seeing, feeling, hearing etc. See if this direct seeing is as true or truer than when there is an ‘I’ claiming to be the experiencer. Make this experiential rather than intellectual.

Sensations will arise, of course. You may find you feel any of the emotions that usually arise. For example, seeing a puppy dog or a new born baby you may feel warm and fuzzy, love, broody. Allow whatever comes up to arise without label or judgement. You may see or hear something that may cause a response (even without labelling) that causes, anger, disgust, contempt or fear to arise.

What you should find is that life just happens without anyone doing anything, no controller, no interpreter, just life, just reality – including your feelings and sensations. Thoughts will arise too. You will see you do not create the thought, nor control wherever they go as they enter your mind, have a frolic around before disappearing again. The thoughts are real too, but not the content of thought.

You can also notice how the mind always seeks to label, to judge and speculate, to inject an ‘I’ to claim everything as it’s own experience.

There's a fear that I will have to give up what I actually do find helpful in my life. Isn't that crazy? And, I get it's just a fearful thought..
Fear can arisel. But, remember, there has never been a ‘you’, ever, that has ever existed, life happened/happens just the way it does - regardless. It is only a thought that attaches to any experience claims it as belonging to an ‘I’.


If you wish check out this link to help cement your understanding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE

By considering the above and allowing an immersion into the experience/experiment as outlined I would guess you will find exactly where you are in relation to the Gate; knowing this beyond intellect and with realistic expectations.
I enjoyed the fish/water comment :-)

No rush to get back with a response as this could be the big breakthrough for you.

Much love

Chris

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:43 pm

Hello Chris,

First of all, thank you SO much for the thorough and well-thought out reply (or I guess I should be thanking your brain which was ahead of "you" on all of it! ;) ) I thoroughly enjoyed the video. WOW!!! So amazing and such a wonderful way to show that I'm/we're not "doing" a thing...we are being DONE...only a thought says otherwise. It's a mind-blower that ultimately proves that we have no control....control is a misperception.

I have done the exercise you describe years ago actually and it had quite a profound effect. It was during a retreat and I found myself immersed in a very magical world for a while following this exercise...one where things appeared very interconnected and there was definitely no reason to be afraid of anything...as I was clearly the observer and also part of the tapestry. Then I returned home and it faded...mostly I think...because my family members were not happy with my new found change and I gradually allowed the self to once again fall back into the illusion. The SEEING things differently, however, was a BIG step for me...and I think I've been tottering around the gate since then!

Thank you for the reminder about fear arising (as well as all emotions). Allowing what is happening is key without adding any story...I've been working with this. The other day, fear arose in the shape of anxiety and instead of reacting in the usual way (resistance & labeling as "bad", etc) I sat down and asked what it was protecting and I could find nothing behind it except a patterned response, really...(thankfully, the anxiety faded with question, too!). I am going to do my best to remember this with all emotions...as I sometimes tend to be very hard on myself based on where I am on the journey and in my life or how I react to people or situations. That's where it's so helpful to remember it just IS...nothing more, nothing less and that one emotion is no better or worse than an other as it passes by. Wow...just thinking about how habitual this all is for me...I can almost see how it works as one thought/emotion builds off another with other thoughts/emotions until there is a full-blown story with all the drama, etc. behind it. Amazing, really!

Let me ask you another thing...I've been working on paying very close attention to how things feel in my body...as I noticed that that feelings behind certain labeled emotions feel very similar...if not exactly the same (such as fear, anxiety, trepidation, etc or even happiness, joy, gratitude...there are very similar associated feelings within). So, I've been noticing the feelings and working with them...let's see if I can explain this better. It appears that most emotional reactions are conditioned. I have been witnessing the emotions come with the understanding that things are happening in a conditioned way...it seems by allowing even space for that, I am able to clearly see that it's just patterns and conditioning and there's nothing that says I have to keep following that pattern if I am able to witness it as such. (I hope this makes sense...it has been working well for me regarding both beliefs and corresponding emotions...the witnessing and allowing for it to be something else).

Lastly, I can so totally see that I have been a seeker who emulates...but no more. I have to KNOW for myself, plus I am tired of what feels like giving my power away! I demand freedom and nothing less! : ) (and again...I understand I'm a fish demanding water!!!)

Thank you, so much, Chris...I will report back again after following your advice and seeing where the brain leads me! : )

Keleki

P.S. It occurs to me just now...if the mind/brain is 6 seconds ahead of me, what's to worry about? Everything is already happening, I just haven't claimed it as "mine" yet and the other option is that I don't even need to claim it because I can't know where it's coming from in the first place. As strange as this sounds, it's comforting to know I'm not the DOER!!! : ) Yay! And, this could be a story, but I don't think so...it feels good, right and natural to trust whatever energy is ahead of the curve of me and allow that....wow....

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Chris7 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:42 am

Hi Keleki

You are very insightful and working hard to see through the illusion, that is a great testament to you.
Of course, there is no ‘you’ doing it, as you have pointed out, but language, although, a wonderful tool, is at best a clumsy in such matters, isn’t it?

I can see you are circling the Gate perimeter with a little trepidation.

The exercise you are going to do, as you know having done it a few years ago, will be a great aid in catapulting you through. I was going to wait for your response to this but felt this last post worthy of a response in its own right.

I thoroughly enjoyed the video. WOW!!! So amazing and such a wonderful way to show that I'm/we're not "doing" a thing...we are being DONE...only a thought says otherwise. It's a mind-blower that ultimately proves that we have no control....control is a misperception.
This is wonderful. We never have had control and this is where the greatest illusion can be seen to unravel. What we are basically doing is taking a Rembrandt and overlaying his signature with our own and claiming doership. How fraudulent our thoughts are!


...as I was clearly the observer and also part of the tapestry..”
Beware this ‘I’ who does the observing. Don’t allow it to take residence on a subtle level. It’s a slippery character.
“...just thinking about how habitual this all is for me...I can almost see how it works as one thought/emotion builds off another with other thoughts/emotions until there is a full-blown story with all the drama, etc. behind it. Amazing, really!

Indeed! Seeing/hearing happens, a thought comes along and puts a label onto it, a sensation arises, thought labels that, an emotion arises thought labels that, round and round and on and on it goes building to a crescendo. The mind is a genius labeller. There is a feedback loop as the narrator in the brain reflects back what is happening – it’s just life experiencing itself as life – and there you have it your very own ‘I’.


It appears that most emotional reactions are conditioned. I have been witnessing the emotions come with the understanding that things are happening in a conditioned way...it seems by allowing even space for that, I am able to clearly see that it's just patterns and conditioning and there's nothing that says I have to keep following that pattern if I am able to witness it as such.

Yes it is all conditioning/programming of the incredible bio-computer we call a brain (including genetic predisposition of millions of years of programming). Again, who is this ‘I’ that follows, or does anything? Beware also of the ‘I’ being promoted to witnesser (or should that be relegated?). Life happens, thoughts, emotions, sensations arise (as you say) out of conditioning of the unique embodiment of this one called Keleki and ‘I’ claims.


P.S. It occurs to me just now...if the mind/brain is 6 seconds ahead of me, what's to worry about? Everything is already happening, I just haven't claimed it as "mine" yet and the other option is that I don't even need to claim it because I can't know where it's coming from in the first place. As strange as this sounds, it's comforting to know I'm not the DOER!!! : ) Yay! And, this could be a story, but I don't think so...it feels good, right and natural to trust whatever energy is ahead of the curve of me and allow that....wow....
Wonderful :-)

You’re doing good, Keleki

Much love

Chris

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Keleki
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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:44 pm

Hi Chris,

Well, still haven't "done" the exercise fully...playing with it here and there and plan to get into nature later today and sit with it.

I have, however, been doing lots of writing and reading here.

In between it all, I watched the movie "Yes, Man"...have you seen it? I've been meaning to watch it for ages and it was a perfect choice...especially when one character says to the other...

"The world's a playground. We know this when we are kids, but somewhere along the way we forget."

That is SO TRUE!!! There is a KNOWING of no DOUBT of that!!!

This made me really LOOK at the possibility that the WORLD IS A PLAYGROUND. And what is required of one at playgrounds? To have a good time...have fun, be in joy, enjoy!!! There's no requirement that says one is there to RUN the playground or CRITIQUE the playground or EVEN LABEL the playground because it's already DONE!!!! (and seemingly FOR US!) So, what is one at the park for? To have fun and enjoy yourself. This is very liberating!!!

Also, I watched the video online here about seeing clearly and how what if what we know is wrong? Sitting with that and feeling the truth/freedom there...also grief somewhat and compassion for how hard this was allowed to become...it is like THE cosmic joke!

Wow. (fast becoming my new favorite word!...what else can be said?!?) : )

Thank you again so much for listening.

Keleki

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Chris7 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:02 pm

Hi Keleki

It’s great you are pulling this all together and have realised the ‘cosmic joke’.

But, I wonder, if there’s a little part of you is getting a little distracted and losing your focus on actually stepping through the gate? You are just one concentrated effort from seeing through the illusion. Once you have done this you can never undo it - un-see it.

Once you’ve done this you can then deepen it by doing what you are doing now, and also with the full support of all of us in aftercare.

You are there, really you are. Is there anything that arises that is causing you to skirt around the entrance without going through?

Is there any fear, any reservations?

Do you have expectations of what it should look like that you’re waiting for before you make the leap?


Please, Keleki, one final push (as the midwife said) and you’re there.

Just look: is there an ‘I’ that exists anywhere? No more reading, watching videos, just direct looking!

If I don’t bring you back into full focus then I’m doing you a disservice and that would be so unfair on you :-)

Much love

Chris

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:45 pm

Hello there,

I suppose it's no coincidence that I just found a fortune cookie saying which states: "The strengths in your character will bring you serenity." Lol...this is how my life plays out...clues and encouragement from somewhere that keeps me keeping on.

So,I hear what you are asking and saying and I hear what wisdom (for lack of a better term is also saying)...MOVE!!!
But, I wonder, if there’s a little part of you is getting a little distracted and losing your focus on actually stepping through the gate? You are just one concentrated effort from seeing through the illusion. Once you have done this you can never undo it - un-see it.


Yes, that is happening...and has been happening....
Is there anything that arises that is causing you to skirt around the entrance without going through?
There is some sort of fear that by really truly doing this I will be required to give up even more when I have already given up so much (and even as I sit with this, i see it's not true...all just a story...the same one I have allowed to play out for a very long time..with lots of big drama and projection...fears of being ostracized (really? who's there to be shunned?)....of being lost...of not knowing what to do (who is doing what)....aimless....
Is there any fear, any reservations?
Ultimately no...the biggest fear is of not crossing the gate (and btw, I have been noticing some positive signs that things are shifting...very little reaction to events occurring around me, even when directed at me, things are MUCH LESS PERSONAL and also noticing that often now my answsers to almost every question are "I don't know" during conversations...because in almost every instance...I don't know and it doesn't feel right to conjecture.
Do you have expectations of what it should look like that you’re waiting for before you make the leap?
I am a bit hung up on the whole idea of dealing with emotions...seeing anger rise and fall. Yet I am noticing this happen already with anxiety (and in some cases which would have previously evoked anxiety, no anxiety at all..).

And, the "I" is trying to make this (the crossing) all spiritual and special...spinning out stories of announcing the change to the world (which is hilarious when you think about it, because it's basically announcing it's left town and was never in town in the first place...LOL : ) ) Also watching lots of comparisons with where others are on the path and what that will look like once I cross over.

Also realizing that I have been living with some very large expectations and the universe or 6-second self has been reinforcing their occurance through signs like fortune cookies and the like....however, it seems clear that all expectations (both good, bad, otherwise) need to be dropped...which feels quite freeing.
Just look: is there an ‘I’ that exists anywhere? No more reading, watching videos, just direct looking!
There is no I...just the idea of an I that is being dropped... and I promise to get serious and LOOK!! : )

If I don’t bring you back into full focus then I’m doing you a disservice and that would be so unfair on you :-)[/quote]

Thank you so much...this is why I'm here...to be put in focus and I so appreciate your help.

Keleki

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Chris7 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:54 am

Hi Keleki

OK, sleeves rolled up and down to getting you through the gate ;-)

There is some sort of fear that by really truly doing this I will be required to give up even more when I have already given up so much (and even as I sit with this, i see it's not true...all just a story...the same one I have allowed to play out for a very long time..with lots of big drama and projection...fears of being ostracized (really? who's there to be shunned?)....of being lost...of not knowing what to do (who is doing what)....aimless...

It’s great you’ve looked at your fear. Whenever fear arises it’s good you look at it in this way. Welcome it and investigate it to always see what is behind it. The ego itself will throw up some fear, that’s natural, it's clinging on to its own identity, illusory as it is.

Part of the process 'post-gate' is the falling away of conditions and concepts that are no longer needed. All you are doing is now (pre-gate) is seeing through the illusion.

Nothing changes by doing so, because you are not losing anything. You are not metamorphosing; your life will carry on life-ing but without the misperception of an ‘I’ as a real entity controlling and directing you life.

You answered your own doubts aptly - who or what is there than can be ostracised?

Who or what is there that will not know what to do, to become aimless?

While you read these words you can say, “I am reading these words.” Or: “reading is happening.”
The reality is the words are being read, the only difference is there is no ‘you’ reading these words. Nothing here has changed, not your comprehension, not your eyesight, not your reaction to them. Your response to them remains exactly the same. Just no ‘I’ as the intermediary, that’s all. Well, life is also the same in all other aspects - without there being a need for an ‘I’.

Remember: you are not removing anything, extracting anything, annihilating anything, because there was never an ‘I’ there to begin with –never has been. Never will be, whether you, or anybody else for that matter, agrees with it. BUT, you know this already, you’ve at the very least glimpsed it.You are just seeing it as a phanton, the same way you saw Santa was.


I am a bit hung up on the whole idea of dealing with emotions...seeing anger rise and fall. Yet I am noticing this happen already with anxiety (and in some cases which would have previously evoked anxiety, no anxiety at all..).

Emotions, anger, happiness, sorrow, anxiety, all these are already happening without there being an ‘I’ in reality. Remember: nothing changes, but things start falling away after you’ve seen through the illusion. It is not necessary to lose these beforehand. All attempting this does is to allow the ‘I’ to continue under the premise of spiritual improvement, which suits it down to the ground, because it gets to maintain the illusion of itself.


And, the "I" is trying to make this (the crossing) all spiritual and special...spinning out stories of announcing the change to the world (which is hilarious when you think about it, because it's basically announcing it's left town and was never in town in the first place...LOL : ) ) Also watching lots of comparisons with where others are on the path and what that will look like once I cross over.

Excellent! You are seeing through the illusion here and recognising there was never anything there to leave in the first place.

It’s impossible to compare to anyone, everyone has a different experience.


Also realizing that I have been living with some very large expectations and the universe or 6-second self has been reinforcing their occurance through signs like fortune cookies and the like....however, it seems clear that all expectations (both good, bad, otherwise) need to be dropped...which feels quite freeing.

Brilliant realisation here, Keleki.

There is no I...just the idea of an I that is being dropped... and I promise to get serious and LOOK!! : )

That’s all it takes. Of course there is nothing to be dropped – nothing there to drop in the first place as you realised.


Thank you so much...this is why I'm here...to be put in focus and I so appreciate your help.

It genuinely is a pleasure to help, and that’s why we’re both here, working as one. It is just one consciousness helping itself to see. C’est tout!


So, is there a separate self that exists at all, in any way, within Keleki?


Much love

Chris

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:50 am

Well, here goes...there IS NO separate self that exists. This is very clear every time a mirror is visited. There is no way to physically SEE the self...no matter how long the body stands and gazes into the mirror, what's being seen is NOT REAL. (a thought arises now saying "this all feels quite trippy" and body responds with a little swirly feeling. Woah and wow, both.) That is my big realization, that whatever the quite-amazing-little soundtrack in the head would like to believe about it's non-existent self, it just possibly cannot be true!!!!! There is no one there (feeling of devastation passing through followed by a giggle...and a sigh). Wow, this paying attention is amazing in itself...WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT?!?!? : )

Noticing there was an expectation of unity perception happening similar to what was experienced at the retreat...that does not appear to be the case and anything is possible..will keep LOOKING. ; )
Am also noticing an abiding ease of something supporting the experience that wasn't being felt before. Wow.

So, no....no self anywhere that can be found (almost wrote I can find...ha ha! Silly I!)...mind, brain, body. Remnant thoughts seem to be showing up now and again in defense of the opposite, but its like breaking through from amnesia and going, "really? I believed that?!?!? really?"

Big sigh. Sense of RELIEF. Laughter.

Okay. Signing off.

: )

Keleki

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Chris7 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:21 am

Hi Keleki

Really brilliant stuff, nice and focused on seeing through the illusion.
Noticing there was an expectation of unity perception happening similar to what was experienced at the retreat
The unity perception is an experience, as we have mentioned before, and it’s something that can fluctuate from being subtle to full-on. Your experience will deepen in this and you may also find the ‘I’ reappears at times but you can never un-see the illusion of a separate-self once seen.

You will find, as you go about your daily life, especially if you go into nature, that the unity feeling expands as your five senses are triggered without there being a ‘me’ who is experiencing them. It will of course spill over in ever greater degree to the rest of your life.


So, no....no self anywhere that can be found (almost wrote I can find...ha ha! Silly I!)...mind, brain, body. Remnant thoughts seem to be showing up now and again in defense of the opposite, but its like breaking through from amnesia and going, "really? I believed that?!?!? Really
So, would you say you are ready for the final questions? I certainly would.

Big sigh. Sense of RELIEF. Laughter
:-)


As soon as you confirm you are ready I will post them for you.

Much love

Chris

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:14 pm

Hi Chris,

Yes, I am! Woo Hoo!!! Let's do this thing! Wheee..............

Did I mention there is excitement? Holy cow batman!! (who by the way, ALSO DOES NOT EXIST LOL). LIBERATION....there is NO ME here to do anything only life happening. Trippy, but the proof is in the pudding. YOU CANNOT LOOK IN YOUR OWN EYES...EVER! That clinched it for me way more than the quantum physics stuff...probably because it's direct experience.

So, bring on the questions...and THANK YOU!!!

: )

Keleki

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Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Chris7 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:10 pm

Hi Keleki,

Here goes then :-)

Here are the final questions, please answer them at length.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Much Love

Chris

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Keleki
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: Before? At? Thru? Could use a little help...THANKS! : )

Postby Keleki » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Hello,

I'm back (and the I'm part is just a rumor!!! : )) LOL.

So, it took awhile to answer the questions, mostly because words are now seeming inadequate in certain instances and there was a sense of wanting to be as clear as possible.

So..here are THE ANSWERS:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

There is NO me at all..this is completely clear intellectually for sure and in glimpses of it in reality....it is an understanding combined with a sense of knowingness. The mind attempts to create stories, reaction happens or does not...basically that's it. And, for the record, I feel a bit like I'm still in the shallow end of the pool, if that makes sense.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

As near as can be figured, programming starts almost instantly with a definite awareness of a separate self around age 3, at least to memory. It seems like as children we innately understand that there is nothing to fear and that we are here for joy (watch one of those laughing baby videos and tell me that's not the most natural thing happening right there) and that is conditioned out of us through the use of a lot of B.S. (beliefs and stories). The child, who sees all as self with no separation, will naturally assimilate the thoughts, feelings and emotions of those around them and not only that BUT eventually ASSUME THE THOUGHTS, FEELINGS & EMOTIONS are their own. WOW.

The illusion of the false self is truly no different than believing in Santa Clause. Then only BIG (and of course, it's HUGE) difference is that we are perpetuating the belief now from the inside about the inside self. In other words, we project Santa as a false character outside the self; we are also projecting ourselves as false characters.

The way I see this is that we arrive here empty, innocent, impressionable and pure and one by one beliefs are laid upon us (and repeated over and over and over again and reinforced handily by pretty much everything we encounter...everyone is basically participating in the mass delusion)...until we (our vessel/embodiment) assimilate and become like the rest of the bunch. It truly is a lot like the Borg from Star Trek the Next Generation. Assimilate or die (at least that's what we believe on one level...it's that death fear that keeps us motivated, I think) and resistance is futile. Which is actually true...resistance IS futile and creates a lot of pain.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

Uh, weird... : ) Seriously, I feel different..lets see if I can put this in words. As I type there is a stream of thought that has been playing fairly steadily saying...THIS CANT BE IT. THIS CANT BE IT. THERE'S GOT TO BE MORE. And yet there is a knowing, a feeling, a shift in perception where things 'look' the same but the feeling beneath everything is NOT the same. (Does this make sense?)

And interesting things happen...for instance: I hear the self make a proclamation out loud...something completely asinine and unprovable in any stretch of the imagination ….and suddenly the next words out of the mouth are something like this...”don't listen to me...I don't know a thing...I heard that somewhere but I have absolutely no idea if it is true.” This is happening a lot...it's like mind prattles on about some inane thing and presto chango, instant awareness...which does and does not require anything other than being aware. My housemates are looking at my a bit askance, tho! LOL.

Pretty amazing, though, to look at the character that has been built up...thankfully there are feelings of love, gratitude, respect, honor and caring for the vessel and how well it's done its job (only perfectly!) Really became aware of that through intense looking for the self in the mirror while continually stating what was true (not the mirror). However, there was an admiration for what was reflected, if you get that, a real feeling of sweetness for the character of Keleki.

Ironically, it was looking in the mirror a year ago at this time and seeing and falling in love with the “character” that kept me keeping on. The clues have been fun, but confusing, as I got caught in the eddy of believing that I was the CREATOR of my reality;....truly a case of the emperor has no clothes and not only that, THERE IS NO EMPEROR! It was only this final push of objectively SEEING that there is nothing to SEE that allowed the dropping away of that untruth.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Honestly, the only thing I would be able to do right now is point them to the website and hope I wasn't drooling while doing so. LOL.

Truly I have nothing to say right now -nothing - and this is coming from someone whom most of my friends and family would call a spiritual proselytizer (especially for the next BIG THING).

It feels right to just be quiet for now. : )

There you have it...wow...it's a process, as far as I can tell...but also pretty amazing.

Can't wait to see what happens next (and the good thing is it will exactly right!)

: )

Keleki


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