Grateful for some help please

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coradad
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Grateful for some help please

Postby coradad » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:01 am

Hi, new one here looking for a guide to chat with.

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:39 am

Hi Coradad,

This is John from the UK - happy to be your guide if you wish.

What brings you here?

With thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby coradad » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:48 am

First, thank you for your reply and time.

I have read the book online and many threads. I "get" the experience of noticing that "I" is a construct and not real. I think that this construct was meant as a protective/ interpretive device for survival. I realize that "I" is useful for communicating the experience happening here to others, a label.

But here is where I get stuck and maybe it's only linguistics. Experiencing is happening and in describing another's experience labels the other an experiencer, so there is an experiencer experiencing. If there's a you, there's a me. So is it that there's a you but no self in that you, and a me but no self in that me.

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:05 am

Coradad,
First, thank you for your reply and time.

I have read the book online and many threads. I "get" the experience of noticing that "I" is a construct and not real. I think that this construct was meant as a protective/ interpretive device for survival. I realize that "I" is useful for communicating the experience happening here to others, a label.

But here is where I get stuck and maybe it's only linguistics. Experiencing is happening and in describing another's experience labels the other an experiencer, so there is an experiencer experiencing. If there's a you, there's a me. So is it that there's a you but no self in that you, and a me but no self in that me.
Firstly, thank you for the response. Some great questions! But before we begin, there's just a few ground rules to take care of. If we can post at least once every day (even a quick post to say if you're unable to). Also, it's best to keep any other spiritual practices to one side while we focus on seeing the truth of the matter.

Are you ok with that?

If so, let's address your message. You get that the "I" is a construct. Excellent. But to this point, you've been stuck on the idea that an experience needs an experiencer.

Curious isn't it. No experiencer having an experience - only experiencing. No walker having a walk, only walking.

Two perspectives. What's the difference?

Sit with it awhile. Explore each perspective deeply.

Perhaps you are sitting reading this. Notice the 2 perspectives. I am reading v reading happening (in which there is no reader). Explore and let me know what is discovered.

With thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:34 am

Coradad,

Just to let you know, tomorrow (Friday) I'm away on business, so will be responding early evening UK time.

Speak soon,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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coradad
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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby coradad » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:09 am

Thanks again John,

I agree to the "rules"/ requirements.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was asking. Maybe another way to put would be: can two things be equally true.

I'm saying that I am having experience and you are having experience. Say I'm at a play and you're at a football match. When we communicate about our experiences, we implicitly describe an experiencer, either you or me who was at the event and had that experience. So, there is an "experiencer" who may or may not have the perspective of "no self". No matter there still is some identification with "experiencer" at least in the day to day communications of life. I don't know that this is a problem as long as it is seen, just asking.

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby coradad » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:28 am

Upon further reflection, I would say that I'm understanding the "I" as a psychological programming construct (a fiction) and also there is a separate "me" from "you". The unique carbon life form named John is experiencing life separately from my unique carbon life form. This experiencing is different and unique to every other existence. Every existence only extends to it's physical boundary. The programming/ instinct is to label this "self", there is a need to label it something to communicate with each other correct?

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:58 am

Coradad,
Upon further reflection, I would say that I'm understanding the "I" as a psychological programming construct (a fiction) and also there is a separate "me" from "you". The unique carbon life form named John is experiencing life separately from my unique carbon life form. This experiencing is different and unique to every other existence. Every existence only extends to it's physical boundary. The programming/ instinct is to label this "self", there is a need to label it something to communicate with each other correct?
Thanks for clarifying. As you say, in communicating with each other, the words "I" and "you" are used to refer to one another.

In terms of the experience, there is: looking and seeing.

Looking is watching the play from an "I" - who is apparently watching the play and having the experiences.
Seeing is watching with play, experiencing the play - no separate self of "I".

Two completely different experiences, yet probably both described to a friend as, "I saw a great play last night."

So, yes, you describe it well.

What comes up for you when you read, "There really is no separate "self", never was, is, or ever shall be?" - for real.

What are your expectations for life without this apparent "I" apparently doing things, controlling things, owning things?

I'll be away now till early evening - look forward to catching up then.

All the best,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:00 am

Just to add about seeing a play (as opposed to looking) - watcher, watching and watched are all lost in the same experiencing.

/J
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby coradad » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:21 pm

What comes up for you when you read, "There really is no separate "self", never was, is, or ever shall be?" - for real.
At this instant nothing really comes up. It's like reading "Today is Friday". When I first read it and started to understand/ experience it the day before yesterday I had some real contorted reactions. First was uncomfortable resisting, tried to argue with it. Then an "aha! I understand that" which was exhilerating. Then a vascillation back to scepticism but as I examined my scepticism I didn't find anything real that I could hang my hat on to dispute it so I accepted it. Even as I write this, "I" have a twinge of recognition that there is a bit of identification with the last sentence "I accepted it" and had the urge to edit it to say "and it was accepted". Anyway, after acceptance then a sadness which I still have a bit of. A feeling of this sense of self was a self protective mechanism that wasn't meant to harm but sure caused a lot of suffering. Then compassion for me and others who I now understand were (and are) operating under this delusion. I can see how this sense of self is a barrier between individuals, that this false sense of "protection" of the fictional "I" is not needed.

Anyway at this time I don't feel "liberated" in a joyful, ecstatic sort of way but more of a sober, somber way. I feel like this is just a realization and the first step in truly knowing myself authentically.
What are your expectations for life without this apparent "I" apparently doing things, controlling things, owning things?
I don't know that I have any expectations, I don't know what tomorrow will bring. My desire is to just to know and be my authentic self, my unique expression of humanness. Before this I didn't invest much in the idea that "I" was controlling anything anyway so it doesn't feel like anything has really changed in that regard. I have always had this innate feeling that everything works out for the best and not to get too attached to a current view of something being "good" or "bad".

I really don't know how this will impact my life but I guess I hope that it will help "close the gap", make life more a direct experience instead of being "filtered" through the veil of self and thus be more authentic. At this point, it seems like I'm making an effort to stay in this awareness of "no self" but don't know why. I don't think I can unsee it but I feel like I have to be vigilant, maybe because it's a new realization. And, I also have a glimmer of excitement as I write this, to see how life will unfold moving forward. I think of a dear friend I would like to share this with, not in an "evangelical" way but in a happy "look what I found" way- a true desire to share.

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby coradad » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:49 pm

Just to add about seeing a play (as opposed to looking) - watcher, watching and watched are all lost in the same experiencing.
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here in the way you may have intended it so instead of making an assumption could you explain further. Are you saying that there is a sense of boundarylessness in experiencing?

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:15 pm

Hi Coradad,

Ok, let's go through it:
What comes up for you when you read, "There really is no separate "self", never was, is, or ever shall be?" - for real.
At this instant nothing really comes up. It's like reading "Today is Friday". When I first read it and started to understand/ experience it the day before yesterday I had some real contorted reactions. First was uncomfortable resisting, tried to argue with it. Then an "aha! I understand that" which was exhilerating.
I tried to argue too, but I ended up accepting that there was nothing to argue with! When we are born, there was no "I" - so what's to argue about? It was socially-conditioned and served a useful purpose for quite a while. But there's comes a time, when a return to our most natural perspective just feels right.
Then a vascillation back to scepticism but as I examined my scepticism I didn't find anything real that I could hang my hat on to dispute it so I accepted it.
Excellent.
Even as I write this, "I" have a twinge of recognition that there is a bit of identification with the last sentence "I accepted it" and had the urge to edit it to say "and it was accepted". Anyway, after acceptance then a sadness which I still have a bit of.
The sadness is quite natural. Most real change has a melancholy about it. You mention about using pronouns, "I accepted it", " and it was accepted." To be honest, the words are not so important. It's the feelings behind the face value of the words that matter and you express it very well.
A feeling of this sense of self was a self protective mechanism that wasn't meant to harm but sure caused a lot of suffering. Then compassion for me and others who I now understand were (and are) operating under this delusion. I can see how this sense of self is a barrier between individuals, that this false sense of "protection" of the fictional "I" is not needed.
Yes, brilliant! This fictional "I" is not needed any more to live life. You mention barriers. When two people talk, each normally speaks from their own "I" perspective and also has a perspective of "you". So, it all gets very filtered and treading on egg shells so as not to hurt each other's "I".
Anyway at this time I don't feel "liberated" in a joyful, ecstatic sort of way but more of a sober, somber way. I feel like this is just a realization and the first step in truly knowing myself authentically.
Sobriety comes from clarity - so great work. You put it nicely: "a realisation and the first step". Each day is full of first steps, because life is always happening anew, whereas the "I" is built of memory and only sees it's reflection.
What are your expectations for life without this apparent "I" apparently doing things, controlling things, owning things?
I don't know that I have any expectations, I don't know what tomorrow will bring. My desire is to just to know and be my authentic self, my unique expression of humanness. Before this I didn't invest much in the idea that "I" was controlling anything anyway so it doesn't feel like anything has really changed in that regard. I have always had this innate feeling that everything works out for the best and not to get too attached to a current view of something being "good" or "bad".
Good to have few expectations - even those can be set aside, because they belong to the past - essentially, thoughts ABOUT the future which can't be known.
I really don't know how this will impact my life but I guess I hope that it will help "close the gap", make life more a direct experience instead of being "filtered" through the veil of self and thus be more authentic. At this point, it seems like I'm making an effort to stay in this awareness of "no self" but don't know why. I don't think I can unsee it but I feel like I have to be vigilant, maybe because it's a new realization. And, I also have a glimmer of excitement as I write this, to see how life will unfold moving forward. I think of a dear friend I would like to share this with, not in an "evangelical" way but in a happy "look what I found" way- a true desire to share.
:) You are strolling up to the gate very nicely.

Ok, this awareness of "no self" - what if there is no such thing as no-self? No "self" and no "no self".

What is left?

Check it out for a while, sit with it, let it come to you - and report what is seen.

Great work Coradad!

With my best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:25 pm

Coradad,
Just to add about seeing a play (as opposed to looking) - watcher, watching and watched are all lost in the same experiencing.
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here in the way you may have intended it so instead of making an assumption could you explain further. Are you saying that there is a sense of boundarylessness in experiencing?
My apologies - the word "lost" is not the most useful way of putting it.

When the world is looked out upon from our "I", through our eyes, there is a sense of separation: me, in here, and the world, out there. When the "I" is seen through, it simply disappears as this locus. With this new perspective, there is no "I" to see from and to receive the world. With no "I" there is no apparent separation. There is simply opening eyes, and seeing what is presented - fresh. So, no boundaries in the sense of separation. Not really boundrylessness, because without separation, a boundary can't be placed anyway.

As you're finding, it's far easier to see than talk about. :D

Best,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby coradad » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:47 pm

Ok, this awareness of "no self" - what if there is no such thing as no-self? No "self" and no "no self".

What is left?
First confusion over the double negative "no- no self". Then an understanding of possible identification with "no self" as replacement for "self". If there's no "no self" there's only what is, pure experience I suppose. This has a feeling of energy, I'll try to label it for you. Somewhat apprehension, somewhat anticipation, I feel it in my chest radiating outward to the rest of my body. As I examine it and explain, it changes. It feels like expansiveness.

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Re: Grateful for some help please

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:22 pm

Coradad,
Ok, this awareness of "no self" - what if there is no such thing as no-self? No "self" and no "no self".

What is left?
First confusion over the double negative "no- no self". Then an understanding of possible identification with "no self" as replacement for "self". If there's no "no self" there's only what is, pure experience I suppose.
Yes.
This has a feeling of energy, I'll try to label it for you. Somewhat apprehension, somewhat anticipation, I feel it in my chest radiating outward to the rest of my body. As I examine it and explain, it changes. It feels like expansiveness.
Good work!! Leave it for while, then go back to it. No "self" and no "no self". What is left?

Take your time. It will come to you.

With best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U


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