Well here it is Jimw!

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Tundra
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Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:22 pm

I'm glad you will help me!

A brief history :

I've always been a very science-minded person, but open-minded.

I read a book on free will and easily fell in with the idea of being an observer and watching life happen through me. Then I read Jed McKenna and thought it was interesting then somehow came across truthstrike and LU. I read forum posts, installed and read through your app and a hundred pages of your book (all today btw!) and I feel like I pretty much internalized this stuff slowly through the history I just gave. In your book you have a lot of people start their explanation with "I get it, I belief it to be true, but you say "look" and I don't feel I've "seen" it!"

I'm pretty much there. I really can't find an I or me in the process of living, but I seem to be thinking it true rather than seeing it.

Don't know what else to say!

Thanks for the help to come.

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jimw
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby jimw » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:02 pm

Hi Tundra, welcome to unleashed !!

I will happily be your guide for this process (not sure how you come to choose me !)

There are a few things we need to agree on before starting.

1. That you will be 110% committed to this process.
2. You will only speak from own experience, no quoting of others.
3. You remain focused on what is asked.
4. You will 'check i'n everyday (or let me know if you are going away / not free for any reason)
5. You will avoid other spiritual teachings just for the time being.

How does that sound ? Ready to start ?

In return I will do everything I can and will also check in everyday (unless I say otherwise in advance)

If you are, please tell me what you expect from this process and how you came to be here - just let loose, have a good rant.

all the best

Jim

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Tundra
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:47 pm

Yeah, I'll be committed and all the other things too!
I'm ready.

The rant begins!

Well, I expect the process to consist of someone who has seen no-self to help me see it. I'm pretty sure I grasp and (I know this isn't the point) "believe" them. I went through the app completely and a good deal of the book and as I said, I already had a good deal of the ideas known to me. I also read a load of the blog posts from truthstrike and watched a few of the videos from LU. As I said here : " In your book you have a lot of people start their explanation with "I get it, I believe it to be true, but you say "look" and I don't feel I've "seen" it!" " (hope that doesn't count as quoting others, it sums where I am up nicely)
So I'm hoping that I'll really know I've seen no-self rather than grasping it intellectually.

So I'll say that I know that life is a series of moments flowing, and actions and reactions and emotions and thoughts arise into existence from their prior causes. I know that I am not a being who is doing, when I found the book on (the lack of) free will in life, I grasped that and was fine living as a viewer that had life move in front of its attention at all times. However there is now this idea of no-self. That there's nothing seeing or thinking or doing or feeling, just sights and thoughts and actions and feelings. I don't even intellectually feel as though there is anything viewing or seeing etc, but I don't feel like I've "seen" it.

I'm looking through the app's quotes and thinking that I know this, and this, and this too, but there's not been a moment where I have seen no-self, just been silent and let sounds and thoughts arise and such with no "shift" to it.

In the short time (just over a day) since landing into the "thing" you and truthstrike do, I have noticed the thoughts correcting themselves ("it'll be a laugh to tell my friends I'm enlightened! wait not a good thought to have to see no-self!)

Dunno if that clarifies or helps you help me, ask anything you want!

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jimw
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby jimw » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:05 pm

Hi Tundra - do you want me to call you that, or something else ?
Well, I expect the process to consist of someone who has seen no-self to help me see it. I'm pretty sure I grasp and (I know this isn't the point) "believe" them. I went through the app completely and a good deal of the book and as I said, I already had a good deal of the ideas known to me. I also read a load of the blog posts from truthstrike and watched a few of the videos from LU.

So I'm hoping that I'll really know I've seen no-self rather than grasping it intellectually.
I guess you have some idea about what we are all about then - it is just an idea though so far.
So I'll say that I know that life is a series of moments flowing, and actions and reactions and emotions and thoughts arise into existence from their prior causes. I know that I am not a being who is doing, when I found the book on (the lack of) free will in life, I grasped that and was fine living as a viewer that had life move in front of its attention at all times. However there is now this idea of no-self. That there's nothing seeing or thinking or doing or feeling, just sights and thoughts and actions and feelings. I don't even intellectually feel as though there is anything viewing or seeing etc, but I don't feel like I've "seen" it.
OK, that's fine. We will work towards you seeing.

For now it is best that you don't read other threads on LU, or even watch the videos / read the book etc. This process is much more effective if we focus on our dialogue.

First question(!)

What comes up when I say: 'There is no separate self. There never has been, it is just an illusion.' Just right out what comes up straight away.

Jim

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jimw
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby jimw » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:13 pm

I meant write out what comes up - apologies, had a long day !

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Tundra
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:14 pm

All I can say to that quote is nod my head, acknowledge I had't inspected the idea for most of my life but now know it to be true. There's no anger or anxiety or any feeling really, just agreement. I believe it but I I've read here that you don't believe, you see and then once seen you can't mistake having seen it. Correct that if it's wrong or misguided or if you think I'm grasping it wrong but I feel like I am (and have been for a long time) on the edge of seeing this disconnect between reality and agency, and now, reality and a self. I'm sat here hoping that the push will come from this discussion, not doubting that it's going to come sooner or later because no-self is so obviously true. I feel almost like I was convincing my, am now convinced but think that's not "through the gate". Unless where I've heard it may be a subtle shift to mean unperceivable in my case.

That's what comes up. :)

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Tundra
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:15 pm

Also I'd be pleased to be known as Tundra here. It's just a label ;)

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jimw
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby jimw » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:43 pm

All I can say to that quote is nod my head, acknowledge I had't inspected the idea for most of my life but now know it to be true. There's no anger or anxiety or any feeling really, just agreement
OK, that's fine, there doesn't have to be anxiety, but if there is/ it arises you need to tell me.
I believe it but I I've read here that you don't believe, you see and then once seen you can't mistake having seen it. Correct that if it's wrong or misguided or if you think I'm grasping it wrong but I feel like I am (and have been for a long time) on the edge of seeing this disconnect between reality and agency, and now, reality and a self.
It is true that 'seeing' is not 'believing' or agreeing with a concept.
I'm sat here hoping that the push will come from this discussion, not doubting that it's going to come sooner or later because no-self is so obviously true. I feel almost like I was convincing my, am now convinced but think that's not "through the gate". Unless where I've heard it may be a subtle shift to mean unperceivable in my case.
OK, that's fine. We can work to make sure you see. For some it is a big 'pop', for others very subtle, or more of a little puff of smoke.

I understand that you want to see no self. Do you expect anything in particular to happen once this is seen, any particular changes, or anything else ?

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Tundra
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:06 pm

The change I expect to see is at least some knowledge I saw no-self rather than just grasped it intellectually, and then for my day to day living to be notably changed in terms of my thoughts being less "self" rather than "me catching myself thinking" and "correcting" the thought to align with what I "know". I read people saying how they changed or didn't after the sight of no self, but I don't expect any of their changes (such as lessened anxiety or anger or whatever) other than the less "self-y" thoughts and beliefs.

Still no anxiety. :)

Also I might be a bit hung up on the fact you need to see it rather than "know" it. Maybe you could expand on why one doesn't work and why I'm grasping one and not the other.

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jimw
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby jimw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:49 am

I read people saying how they changed or didn't after the sight of no self, but I don't expect any of their changes (such as lessened anxiety or anger or whatever) other than the less "self-y" thoughts and beliefs.
Good. Expecting *anything* is not helpful - what is, kinda is.
Still no anxiety. :)

Also I might be a bit hung up on the fact you need to see it rather than "know" it. Maybe you could expand on why one doesn't work and why I'm grasping one and not the other.
Well, there is knowing(from an intellectual point of view - i.e. understanding a concept) and then there is knowing from an experiential point of view, which is what we mean by seeing. A deep unshakable 'knowing'/'feeling'/'seeing' is what we are after. It might be case that you are closer to the 'gate' than you think you are !

You might have tried these already, but give the following exercises a go, let me know what comes up and what it means.


1. Sit quietly, and notice what is real: body, furniture, feelings, thoughts, sensations, surroundings. Can you find an “I” here? Or are there just thoughts, feelings, sensations, images, sounds ?

2. Look at an object in the room you’re in (doesn't matter what - something ordinary). What happens? Can you closely observe the process, and tell me if there is someone involved in this looking process at all — someone that is not just an assumption ?

3. Raise your right arm (or don't). Can you pinpoint the exact moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice?

4. DO NOT THINK OF AN ELEPHANT. Really, do not under any circumstances, think of an elephant. No elephants for us. ............Did you think of an elephant ?...... I think you did. Did you have control over that thought arising ?

happy looking!

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Tundra
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:31 am

1. I can't find an "I". If I can't find an "I" in the present, while going through all the things I can experience, then there's never been an "I", not in memories of experience or sights or feelings or anything else.

2. No I can't say that, I'm simply looking at an object because of the prior cause of finding an object to look at due to reading the phrase "Look at an object in the room you’re in", there's no lineage of me in the process of getting to looking at that object. While looking at it, there's just the moment of it being the image seen, not anyone who is or had commanded any step to that point.

3. The decision arises from beyond any power. (this is a common exercise when explaining lack of free will) The impulse arises to do, or not do, and the action happens. Thoughts can then rationalise the impulse ("I don't do what I'm told!/Well, my arm was under my leg so I couldn't be bothered!") but it's clear that there is no active decider, the brain just gives an order or doesn't.

4. Of course I thought of an elephant! Of course I didn't have control over it!

These all confirm it for me, but still can't say this happened:
" A deep unshakable 'knowing'/'feeling'/'seeing' is what we are after. "

Good stuff so far. I know we can make it! :)

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jimw
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby jimw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:10 pm

Hi Tundra - very good, top marks !

Well, it looks like you didn't find a self. Could it be that what you think liberation is / will bring, is just a concept or an idea of some future event ?

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Tundra
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:17 pm

That question is hurting my head slightly!

It feels like something I'm waiting for, knowing that any moment should be able to show me no-self, but not finding it beyond grasping it intellectually at any moment. I'm "trying to pop", wondering if this chat will build momentum until I have to see it or if it can just happen right now, but not having it now, or now, or *now* either! :)

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jimw
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby jimw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:25 pm

That question is hurting my head slightly!

It feels like something I'm waiting for, knowing that any moment should be able to show me no-self, but not finding it beyond grasping it intellectually at any moment. I'm "trying to pop", wondering if this chat will build momentum until I have to see it or if it can just happen right now, but not having it now, or now, or *now* either!
What in particular are you waiting for ? What if in your case there was a gentle wander through the gate rather than a big 'pop' ?

Could it be that there is no self in the here and now as you read these words on the screen ?

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Tundra
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Re: Well here it is Jimw!

Postby Tundra » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:36 pm

I'm waiting for a noticeable movement to seeing no-self. It seems like I learnt it to be true, tested it and know it to be true (that there is no self) but I don't feel like it's registered as a change. It still feels "belief-y".

Of course there's no self right now as these words are typed. I feel like I'm going to keep confirming the truth in my thoughts and in the exercises, but not seeing it in a way that leads to that complete deep unerring knowledge.

By "What if in your case there was a gentle wander through the gate rather than a big 'pop' ? " you mean I might have missed the gentle wander? How could I check if I really permanently grasp it rather than just being able to correct my thoughts? How can I check I'm "through"?

I saw (before you told me not to look at other threads and books and such, I've been good! :) ) that you confirm people get it with a few questions, and I want to make sure I'm not just believing I got it, answering how I think you want it to be answered and then ending this without the actual liberation.


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