Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for guide

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Shell
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Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for guide

Postby Shell » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:21 am

Hello,
Im dying to wake up from the dream of separation. To really KNOW with all my being the nature of our eternal Reality.


Should it be helpful: I'm a student of and try to practice A Course in Miracles.


I feel a really deep gratitude that you are here and willing to guide a sleeper like me to find Truth directly.

In the hope that you will respond immediately (I'm a great believer in instant gratification ;-) Just playing...Seriously, it would be just wonderful to hear back from you.

In gratitude,

Shell xxx

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Chris7
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Chris7 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:41 am

Hi Shell

Welcome to LU. I would be happy help guide you. I like to think of this as a team effort, for my part I will help keep you focused on breaking through the illusion of an ‘I’ as a separate self. And, likewise your part will be to keep yourself focused on this.

The agreement is we will both to try to post once a day, and be as honest and direct as possible. I'll ask a question, you answer, and we go from there, until we are both satisfied that you have seen past the illusion of a separate self.

It is best if you stop any spiritual practices including reading any spiritual literature during this period. That way there will be no distractions and we can keep our focus clear and sharp. Also, please only relay your direct experience when replying to questions rather than referring to prior knowledge and understandings.

If you like you can tell a little of the story up to now, and tell me what you are your expectations of becoming liberated.

Chris

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Shell
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Shell » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:00 am

Hello Chris,
Thank you for answering and offering your help. Thats very kind of you.
When I think of what my expectations are re becoming liberated...deep peace..tranquility ..gentleness..kindness..compassion. Hard to put into words. I really dont know what to expect from becoming liberated. But I do know that I value peace, tranquility, kindness and compassion. I guess theres a sort of quiet desire to be a vessel for those qualities...a vessel for helpful Wisdom...without the I tainting it all.


See Chris, the greatest gift I ever received has been a friend introducing me to A Course in Miracles. And now a fellow Course friend, has introduced me here...and now to you. There is a feeling of trust, Chris...that this process is simply what is supposed to be happening right now...for the good of all concerned...

And so I am here..writing to you...feeling calm...a little flutter of excitement...a feeling of hope...a feeling of deep faith that this is simply part of the way that Im destined to follow.

Peace and gratitude
Shell

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Chris7
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Chris7 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:24 pm

Hi Shell
Thank you for answering and offering your help. Thats very kind of you.
It’s a pleasure to help. Together we will go towards the (gateless) gate me guiding you along the way - by virtue of having already travelled the route and know some of its pitfalls. At the gate you will cross through into liberation and I, along with many others who have also gone through, will be waiting at the other side to welcome a liberated (from the illusion) ‘you’ as no longer a separate self/entity.

When I think of what my expectations are re becoming liberated...deep peace..tranquility ..gentleness..kindness..compassion. Hard to put into words. I really dont know what to expect from becoming liberated. But I do know that I value peace, tranquility, kindness and compassion.
These are wonderful attributes to have and desire. For the moment however can we leave all expectations to one side? Our focus for this process needs to be laser like on seeing through the illusion of self.

I guess theres a sort of quiet desire to be a vessel for those qualities...a vessel for helpful Wisdom...without the I tainting it all.
Who is the ‘I’ that taints it all; that taints anything? Can you try and find where this ‘I’ resides? Is it in the body/ in the mind? Or, as is the case in reality, is it nowhere to be found apart from a thought?

See Chris, the greatest gift I ever received has been a friend introducing me to A Course in Miracles. And now a fellow Course friend, has introduced me here...and now to you. There is a feeling of trust, Chris...that this process is simply what is supposed to be happening right now...for the good of all concerned...
Excellent! And I appreciate you are a studying a Course in Miracles, and that’s great, but just for the short time it takes to go through this process can I ask you not to read this. We need to do this without distractions in order to blast through the illusion.

And so I am here..writing to you...feeling calm...a little flutter of excitement...a feeling of hope...a feeling of deep faith that this is simply part of the way that Im destined to follow.
Wonderful! Everything happens just the way it does, perfectly (no 'I' required).

If I say to you that ‘you’ do not exist as a separate self, never have existed and never will exist, that there is no ‘I’ in any of this for anything to happen to, how does it make you feel? (I realise this statement appears contradictory by referring to a ‘you’ but that’s just the conventions of language :-))

Happy looking

Chris

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Shell
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1) First hopefully honest answers to your guided questions,

Postby Shell » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:52 pm

Hi there again, dear Chris,

”It’s a pleasure to help. Together we will go towards the (gateless) gate me guiding you along the way - by virtue of having already travelled the route and know some of its pitfalls. At the gate you will cross through into liberation and I, along with many others who have also gone through, will be waiting at the other side to welcome a liberated (from the illusion) ‘you’ as no longer a separate self/entity”

Thank you again, Chris. Reminds me of, poetically speaking, “together, or not at all”; and “not One Note of Heaven’s Song was ever missed”; and “Nothing Real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, herein lies the peace of God”




...These are wonderful attributes to have and desire. For the moment however can we leave all expectations to one side? Our focus for this process needs to be laser like on seeing through the illusion of self.
Dear Chris, I can seek and endeavour to leave all expectations aside. I’ll do my best to, OK? And if expectations creep in, then please help me to see them for that.


(...I guess theres a sort of quiet desire to be a vessel for those qualities...a vessel for helpful Wisdom...without the I tainting it all.):-

“1) Who is the ‘I’ that taints it all; that taints anything?
In times of quiet, and occaisionally in times of great and very active stress, I feel and see that it is uterly absurd to refer to the I as a who, what etc.
When I am what I call “asleep” (deeply identified as the I), the I is me myself and I, body, mind, personality, etc. With that identification comes automatically all the yous and theys and thems.


2)Can you try and find where this ‘I’ resides? Is it in the body/ in the mind?
No matter how hard I search, including under the bed, there is no I to be found.
The I is not in the body.
The I is not in the mind. Theres a word in the mind (I ).. and loads of descriptions of what I is...but no tangible I.
The I is not in any part of the universe/ world to be found, according to my searching.
There appears to be dust under the bed...but no I.

3)Or, as is the case in reality, is it nowhere to be found apart from a thought?”

Even with thought, I can not be found/ located/ seen. I am sad. I am angry. I am loving. I am pissed off. I am a bitch. I am a bastard. I am holy. I am tall. I am fat. I am anorexic. I am a ballerina. I am married. I am a widow. I am a kiwi. There are perceived sensations and images (etc) – or, if you will, a perceiving,- that are called sad, angry, loving, pissed off, bitchy, bastardy, holy, tall fat, anorexix, ballerina, married, widow, kiwi. And routinely, if its not an I, its a derivatve such as a you or they or we that come nigh if not absolutely simulataneously on the heels of these thoughts. But neither the I nor a follow on (you, me,mine, we they, them, theirs) is tangibly found or seen, if you will.

Wonderful! Everything happens just the way it does, perfectly (no 'I' required).

My direct seeing shows me that this is a world of death, of lack, of constant need, of sacrifice, of terror, of short term delights that inevitably do not last. and of fear. It is a desert where thirsty people come to be born in and through pain, to struggle a while and to die. It is a kill and be killed world. Not one manifestation survies without killing another in order to survive.
And you are absolutely right, it is perfect. But only in insane ingenuity. That is what my honest looking shows me.


If I say to you that ‘you’ do not exist as a separate self, never have existed and never will exist, that there is no ‘I’ in any of this for anything to happen to, how does it make you feel?
I’ve been through several different experiences/ insights as a result of this question. Absoltue terror (death)......and now we are at absolute relief. In this moment. Who knows how it will be in five mintues time?



(I realise this statement appears contradictory by referring to a ‘you’ but that’s just the conventions of language :-))
Im really really really glad that you are willing to use the common language of every day. Its all about the content...and not the form or packaging, for me.
Language is useful to communicate with. Symphonies can also speak to the soul. As can poetry. Content (not capital I’s and lower case i’s or avoiding the use of the first person all together) is what I find useful.

Happy looking
Thank you, Chris, and kisses goodnight. I have a beloved husband to feed and its already very late....

Shell

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Chris7
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Chris7 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:07 am

Hi Shell

Thank you so much for your full and honest reply. You’ve got a great sense of humour and insightful observations.
Thank you again, Chris. Reminds me of, poetically speaking, “together, or not at all”; and “not One Note of Heaven’s Song was ever missed”; and “Nothing Real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, herein lies the peace of God
That is indeed poetic. To expand on the ‘nothing unreal exists’ part f I may? This fits in perfectly with our current task. I, me, mine, doesn’t exist, at all in any way, as you noted (finding only dust under the bed - lol).

Thoughts, feelings, sensations, table, chair computer all exist. The anger and defensiveness you mentioned in your PM today all exist. To all of these a label is placed of ‘I’, mine and me; engrained in language, conditioned in us from birth.

Whenever an experience arises the mind labels it as ‘mine’ - but only after the fact. It comes within a thought. The thought is real, its content not. Try this: think of the last meal you ate, I’m sure you can picture it, describe it, maybe even recall the taste, but the meal isn’t real, but it doesn’t exist, you can’t serve it up and eat it. It’s the same with ‘I’. It’s a phantom, it’s a lie – just like dear old Santa.

Just as Santa was exposed or revealed we are exposing the unreal existence of ‘you’ as a separate self.


Dear Chris, I can seek and endeavour to leave all expectations aside. I’ll do my best to, OK? And if expectations creep in, then please help me to see them for that.
That’s exactly why I’m here, to walk the walk of liberation with you.

In times of quiet, and occaisionally in times of great and very active stress, I feel and see that it is uterly absurd to refer to the I as a who, what etc.
When I am what I call “asleep” (deeply identified as the I), the I is me myself and I, body, mind, personality, etc. With that identification comes automatically all the yous and theys and thems.
That’s great that you recognise the absurdity.

Even with thought, I can not be found/ located/ seen. I am sad. I am angry. I am loving. I am pissed off. I am a bitch. I am a bastard. I am holy. I am tall. I am fat. I am anorexic. I am a ballerina. I am married. I am a widow. I am a kiwi. There are perceived sensations and images (etc) – or, if you will, a perceiving,- that are called sad, angry, loving, pissed off, bitchy, bastardy, holy, tall fat, anorexix, ballerina, married, widow, kiwi. And routinely, if its not an I, its a derivatve such as a you or they or we that come nigh if not absolutely simulataneously on the heels of these thoughts. But neither the I nor a follow on (you, me,mine, we they, them, theirs) is tangibly found or seen, if you will.
That is really brilliant, Shell. Unless I’m mistaken you are saying all these things arise and are attributed to, but belong to no one. That you cannot locate this ‘I’ anywhere?

Just for absolute clarity, who or what (in your direct experience) is the perceiver?

Can ‘you’ as an individual manager of this embodiment called Shell, control any of these sensations, feelings or images you describe?

My direct seeing shows me that this is a world of death, of lack, of constant need, of sacrifice, of terror, of short term delights that inevitably do not last. and of fear. It is a desert where thirsty people come to be born in and through pain, to struggle a while and to die. It is a kill and be killed world. Not one manifestation survies without killing another in order to survive.
I appreciate your point and do not wish in any way to negate it, but, to keep the momentum on our focus, who is it - within you - that fears this?
Is there any ONE individual that this actually happens to?
Is this any different to, say, a thunderstorm, a monsoon, or a rainbow or a summer’s day?

And you are absolutely right, it is perfect. But only in insane ingenuity. That is what my honest looking shows me.
The perfection I refer to is that life happens all by itself. There is no one controlling it and so it cannot be any other way than the way it is. There is ultimately no right and wrong, just life - exactly as it is!

I really do appreciate your honesty, and wonder how this last statement made you feel.

I’ve been through several different experiences/ insights as a result of this question. Absoltue terror (death)......and now we are at absolute relief. In this moment. Who knows how it will be in five mintues time?
I feel you are so close to seeing through the illusion. This is wonderful, and what you experience in both the terror and relief is natural. Once you have seen through the illusion you can never go back to believing it again, though you can play along with it. You do not lose anything because you never had it to lose in the first place – apart from a false belief.

Im really really really glad that you are willing to use the common language of every day. Its all about the content...and not the form or packaging, for me.
Language is useful to communicate with. Symphonies can also speak to the soul. As can poetry. Content (not capital I’s and lower case i’s or avoiding the use of the first person all together) is what I find useful.
You’ll be at home in LU then because here language continues in the same way. There’s no dropping of the pronoun and none of the neo-advaita talk going on. It’s kept real :-)

There’s a lot here to consider, take your time to consider each one. I realise the questions are perhaps different only by context, but I just want to you make sure that by the time you’ve finished there is no ‘I’. To make sure, if you like, that it hasn’t temporarily gone from under the bed and into the wardrobe, waiting to pounce as soon as it thinks you have stopped looking for it.

The Gate beckons.

Much love,

Chris

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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Shell » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:55 pm

Sweet Chris,

our 15 year old son would have turned 21 today had he not hung himself. My husband is beside himself with grief...can you give me a bit longer to reply, please? Right now, it just feels right to hold my husband...Im feeling pretty terribly scared up shakey, too. Forgive me?

Much love,
Shell xxxxx

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Shell
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Shell » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:05 pm

Shit, I did not mean to put this on the forum..I wanted it to go to you, sweet Chris, as a PM. Now it is too late, its on the forum and I can not delete it and send it to you privately.

I KNOW you are kind sweet Chris...and I dont really believe I have to ask you for forgiveness (we are supposed to post each day). I just wanted to let you know, as a simple human conventional couresty, that I cant promise to write in the next 24 hours. I am convinced you will be holding us in your heart.

Thank you in advance,
Much love from the tears

Shell xxxx

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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Shell » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:02 pm

Hi dear Chris,

You asked me to incorporate something I wrote to you personally, in the forum thread.
I will just paste and copy it here…it does not seem right to edit and dissect it. It is what it is/was in the moment. So, here it is, but please look further, because in this letter I will attempt to post my honest answers to your questions. But let me say again Chris, its always only my own honest answers that I am finding the courage to write here…I’m never suggesting with my postings that my answers are the “right ones”. They are but the ones I find within after honest looking.

“Good morning dear sweet Chris,

Your lovely message jumped into my heart and made my heart sing. Thank you.
My husband and I fell into an exhausted sleep, holding each other...now we are having coffee and awaiting guests to arrive..we are going to a morning market in Leopoldsburg. Chin up and march onwards....and keep looking, looking looking...

I feel a huge relief, just to think that if there is no I, then there was also no beloved son to die so tragically by his own hand. There is indeed no individual to die. The grief points to loss and tragedy that can not be in truth. The grief points to individuals in great emotional pain. But there are no idividuals to be in great emotional pain. There is just that emotion called grief and a body seemingly very sensitive to sensing it (grief).

Still not my experience, sweet Chris, still only an intellectual understanding for the most of the time...with a few glimpses of seeing it truly, for a second every now and then.

In the greatest appreciation for you and your deep kindness and guidance,
Kisses, Shell xxx”


So, that was the content that you asked me to post on the forum. Here now, back to my answers to your most recent questions.


“……To expand on the ‘nothing unreal exists’ part f I may? This fits in perfectly with our current task. I, me, mine, doesn’t exist, at all in any way, as you noted (finding only dust under the bed - lol).
Thoughts, feelings, sensations, table, chair computer all exist. The anger and defensiveness you mentioned in your PM today all exist. To all of these a label is placed of ‘I’, mine and me; engrained in language, conditioned in us from birth.
Whenever an experience arises the mind labels it as ‘mine’ - but only after the fact. It comes within a thought. The thought is real, its content not. Try this: think of the last meal you ate, I’m sure you can picture it, describe it, maybe even recall the taste, but the meal isn’t real, but it doesn’t exist, you can’t serve it up and eat it. It’s the same with ‘I’. It’s a phantom, it’s a lie – just like dear old Santa.
Just as Santa was exposed or revealed we are exposing the unreal existence of ‘you’ as a separate self. “


Yes, “meal” is a convenient word that points to several things at once, but only because of our conditioning and expectations of what “meal” means. It does not point to what gets specifically ingested. The word “meal” does not point to anything specific at all.


“That is really brilliant, Shell. Unless I’m mistaken you are saying all these things arise and are attributed to, but belong to no one. That you cannot locate this ‘I’ anywhere?
Just for absolute clarity, who or what (in your direct experience) is the perceiver?”
It’s a real bummer that you put in brackets “(in your direct experience)”.


This leaves me no opportunity whatsoever to present my prized intellectual understanding!!! So bugger you, dear,Chris. Now, everyone on this site is going to know that I am not enlightened!(xxx)
I have 3 very different direct experiences.
1) The most common direct experience (97% of the time, as I experience it): I am the perceiver. Although various parts of my body might be sensing and perceiving, I have the direct experience that it is my body and my mind and thus me that is diretly perceiving (and I have the feeling that my mind is between my earholes in what surgeons call the brain…and I have the feeling that “I” am seeing out from “my” eyeballs.

2) In moments where I feel I create a quiet space---it seems clear that it is absurd that “I” am the perceiver. In such very infrequent moments, it appears that perceiver and that which is being perceived is “one” – occurring simultaneously” and that it has nothing to do with what I truly am. In these extremely rare moments…there is only simulataneous perceiving and perceived…the one is dependent on the other.

3) I’m going to leave the 3rd direct experience for later in this reply, where it seems to fit well in answer to one of your questions.


“Can ‘you’ as an individual manager of this embodiment called Shell, control any of these sensations, feelings or images you describe?”

I experience that I can, Chris.
An example. The Yoga teacher teaches pranayama. The life force that rides on the breath. You can have the discipline to simply watch the breath, without taking control of it (extremely difficult), or you can develop the discipline to take control of the breath and do loads of fancy exercises with it.
A second example: the bloody mosquitos are destroying my sleep and biting me in bed…I can decide to get up, walk all the way downstairs and try to find white vinegar to apply to the bites…or I can decide to determine to fall back asleep and bugger the mosquitos. If I am asleep I don’t notice them.
Just two examples of a hundred that I can give ( such as deciding what to buy to cook for dinner and how to cook it and when to cook it).
It really feels like I am doing the deciding and taking control of many aspects of daily life….
On the other hand, I’m pretty clear that I can not control the weather or how fast trees grow or whether my sister, who is desparate to fall pregnant, will fall pregnant. etc etc etc


(My direct seeing shows me that this is a world of death, of lack, of constant need, of sacrifice, of terror, of short term delights that inevitably do not last. and of fear. It is a desert where thirsty people come to be born in and through pain, to struggle a while and to die. It is a kill and be killed world. Not one manifestation survies without killing another in order to survive.)

“…but, to keep the momentum on our focus, who is it - within you - that fears this?
Is there any ONE individual that this actually happens to?
Is this any different to, say, a thunderstorm, a monsoon, or a rainbow or a summer’s day?”


Can you refer back to answers 1 and 2 above? It’s the same experience for me. 97% of the time, I experience that it is billions of individuals, including yours truly, that fear this. And the remaining tragically small percentile of the time---I see the absurdity of there being an individual I that this actually happens to.
Are you asking me if there is a hieirachy (cant spell) in illusions perhaps, sweet Chris?
Is our 15 year old son’s hanging himself the same illusion as say, a rainbow appearing, and a summers day occuring, and a Tsunami that kills 1000s at a swoop occuring and mass genocide occruing, and the flowering of a bed of roses occuring? Is there in fact, no difference whatsoever in any of these occurances?
My personal answer is the same as above. For 97% of the time, at least, in my experience the terrible tragedies/ great beauties are quite individual, and have wildly different impacts on those who experience them. And this 97% with this comes extremely personal suffering or extremely shorlived joy.
During the extremely rare moment that clarity seems to hit---it seems absurd that death is real, and that temporary joy could ever be possible, and that there is never an individual that could be hurt in any way.


“The perfection I refer to is that life happens all by itself. There is no one controlling it and so it cannot be any other way than the way it is. There is ultimately no right and wrong, just life - exactly as it is!”

Chris, may I ask you something? Do you REALLY swallow this as Truth? REALLY? Do you really experience that “there is no right or wrong, just life, exactly as it is?”
Do you REALLY experience it all as “perfect”? Do you REALLY experience that this is indeed, “LIFE” as in life eternal?

Now, let me answer your question as honestly as I can; there is no offence intended; I’m only trying to answer honestly, ok sweet dear Chris?:-
1) I have no proof that there is no one controlling it, this thing that you call “life”. If it is GOD Who is at the reins, then I presume HE is an insane and very cruel bastard type of entity, who is telling and making manifest the tale of a manically insane but ingenious idiot.
2) The only thing I have faith in is that GOD/ the CREATOR is not insane and is not a bastard and is not a maker of a cruel tale told by an idiot. I am not willing to pin-point this world that you call “life” onto a perfectly and all ecompassing loving GOD/ CREATOR.

If Love/GOD is Perfect and All Encompassing, it can have no opposite. It knows only ITSELF.

3) My only possible assumption therefore, is that this entire world is an illusion, a nightmare and at times a pretty dream. NOT REAL. NOT TRUTH. NOT TRUE LIFE.

4) I agree, that if “no one controlling it” refers to a Chris or a Shell not controlling it, than no one individual is controlling it. Chris and Shell are puppets in this world…they have no control over what they do or what they think or what they feel. Chris and Shell are convenient words that point to seemingly complex individual physical, mental, emotional, intellectual and astral bodies. These are but puppets and are not capable of controlling anything whatsoever…although their experience is regularly the opposite of this. Chris and Shell regularly believe and experience that they have loads of control…

“I really do appreciate your honesty, and wonder how this last statement made you feel.”
Ahh, sweet Chris. At first I saw no option but to kill myself, I felt so lost and hopeless and saw only a cruel and evil world of death. Then I recognized it as THE motivations of all motivations to “wake up”….



“I feel you are so close to seeing through the illusion. This is wonderful, and what you experience in both the terror and relief is natural. Once you have seen through the illusion you can never go back to believing it again, though you can play along with it. You do not lose anything because you never had it to lose in the first place – apart from a false belief”


“There’s a lot here to consider, take your time to consider each one. I realise the questions are perhaps different only by context, but I just want to you make sure that by the time you’ve finished there is no ‘I’. To make sure, if you like, that it hasn’t temporarily gone from under the bed and into the wardrobe, waiting to pounce as soon as it thinks you have stopped looking for it.”

Dear Chris,
Im really confused and stuff needs just to come out. Let me just write here what comes, OK?

So many take great comfort and enlightenment by recognizing that they are not present (ie, no ‘”I”) when they sleep at night. They awake to the daytime and think, “wow, I was perfectly happy, there was no I, I must have been truly resting”
Well Chris…my experience is utterly different. My experience tells me that the physical eyes do not see. My experience tells me that perception of form is the most blinding of all.
Chris, the mind NEVER sleeps. I lucid dream. Perfect awareness of dreaming.
In the night dream (ie, when the body is in bed), the mind NEVER stops. And no physical eyes are required to see whole worlds.
My body’s eyes are as firmly closed as any other body lying in sleep in bed. But I SEE. Entire worlds.
There is always a feeling of slight pressure behind the eyeballs, a feeling that the mind/ world is between my earholes. And yet I am truly withnessing/seeing our world without physical eyes, including the body within the dream world that I may or may not be personally identifying with as I am aware that I dream.
Conclusion: the entire world of space and time, including all its individual figures such as Chris and Shell never left the mind that is dreaming it. No idea ever leaves its source (the mind) to manifest.
It is a massive mind trick. We never wake up in the morning to a real world. We just continue dreaming, yet believe that this physical world is real.
I have a mate in Ankara. He was born without eyes. He only has empty eye sockets. Universities in Canada and the USA heard about him and decided to test him out. He had never left his tiny Turkish village in his life.
They took him and tested him and put him through the hoop. He paints perfect, including technical drawing perfect, pictures of the world as we know it. From the extremely complex ocatagonl cathedaol in Florence that he has never touched nor visited, to perfect landscape paintings of the Turkish countryside and sea coast. He was born without eyeballs…but he can see, too.
I don’t see without my physical eyes as well as he does….but even with my physical eyes I see the astral body…which most proclaim is bullshit, it does not exist. But, we see it. Really see it. Before we even knew what an astral body was or had ever heard of a cathedral or a city called Florence… we could see it.
Its all just part of the same illusion. Its all in the same and singular mind. There are no individual minds, although that is our experience. There is only one mind…and that mind is not REAL…and nothing in that mind is real. Nothing. Its is only images in a dream that feels like it is extremely real in the normal 9-5 waking life in the world.
I told you my direct experience, sweet Chris. I did not tell you stories about masters who have had the same and much deeper experiences. I told you my experience.
I am desparate to wake up from this dream.
I love you
Shell xxxxx

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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Shell » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:33 pm

Sweet Chris,

I dont know with all of the above whether I have even made my confusion clear.

My experience is, is that this entire manifest world, the stars, Pluto the suns, Mars and the whole job DOES NOT EXIST. This from lucid dreaming when most people sleep peacefully and snore loudly...when I am aware of dreaming, of non stop dreaming of the world. It is all in the mind. It never left its source (the mind).

The scarey part is, is that I too, experience that I wake up every morning in a very manifest physical world, trapped in a body that is destined to snuff it sooner or later. At the same time, I know it has to be a dream - from my own direct experience.

Dear God, Chris, there is NOTHING so blinding as perception of form, be it physical, emotional or mental form. There is nothing so blinding. I know the truth...but IM compeletly blinded by the form which lies and lies and lies and lies and lies. And I experience my split minded belief in the lies that the non existant physical world report back to me.

Its very scarey indeed.

Its very scarey indeed to know directly that the entiring sleeping and waking experience is a lie...to experience it as a dream...but to have no clue as to how to wake up from it.

I hope this makes it clearer.

I love for and thank you for all your help. Please be patient with me and dont dump me as a hopeless case sleeper xxxx

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Chris7
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Chris7 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:21 pm

Hi Shell

Wow! I have to admire your honesty, the deep searching courage and tenacity.

In answer to your very last question: “Please be patient with me and dont dump me as a hopeless case sleeper”
Not a chance, well not as long as I have the physical/mental capacity :-)

You’ll notice by the end of this thread that I have not responded to all your points. That’s obviously deliberate as we need to get the focus laser-like now on our objective: you seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

I feel you are almost there. To give an analogy, imagine a radio, the type where you turn a dial in order to get to a radio station, and sometimes just slightly before or after the clarity of the sought station is located, there is some distortion. That’s where I feel you are. Just a tiny tweak needed.

Let’s start by reviewing expectations as these can be subtle and/or unrealistic and cause someone to look in all the wrong places and not in the place that is staring them in the face.

I know many seekers have come across the ‘famous’ gurus/teachers who have had profound awakenings often accompanied by amazing mystical experiences and visions. They then follow them attending satsangs, reading their books, and spend the rest of their lives chasing the dragon. This is despite the guru pointing to the simplicity of seeing the illusion and warning against the expectation of a sensationally profound experience. Of course, there are some whose careers depend on dangling the illusive golden carrot.

Everyone has a different experience. Some are indeed profound, some are like a violent storm and others are like a gentle breeze. What we are doing here is looking for the beginning only. Once the illusion is seen, just like the when Santa was found to be a lie, you can never go back, although you can play along with it.

Once seen through the illusion of an ‘I’ as a separate-self existing in reality, there then comes the falling. This can be very steep and rapid, or gradual and smooth. In other words there are two extremes and everything in between. During the falling process conditioning, beliefs etc. begin to fall away.

So, what we’re looking for, all we’re looking for at this stage, is you ‘knowing’ the self doesn’t exist at all – in any way. When you know this to be true in your direct experience, rather than intellectually, then you are indeed liberated from the illusion. Voila! It’s as simple as that. You will know you do not exist as a separate individual. From this place there is deepening, there is plenty of support through LU, and when you return to your spiritual readings you will find you now get what they’re all saying.


I feel a huge relief, just to think that if there is no I, then there was also no beloved son to die so tragically by his own hand. There is indeed no individual to die. The grief points to loss and tragedy that can not be in truth. The grief points to individuals in great emotional pain. But there are no idividuals to be in great emotional pain. There is just that emotion called grief and a body seemingly very sensitive to sensing it (grief).
I suggested you posted this from your PM in order to show how wonderful this is. The ‘huge relief’ you mention is a great breakthrough. I appreciate you go on to say: “Still not my experience, sweet Chris, still only an intellectual understanding for the most of the time...with a few glimpses of seeing it truly, for a second every now and then.”
But this is where the breakthrough is waiting. It’s a bit like a chick that has started to hatch, still in the shell (shell :-)) but the hatching out is just a couple more pecks away.


The most common direct experience (97% of the time, as I experience it): I am the perceiver. Although various parts of my body might be sensing and perceiving, I have the direct experience that it is my body and my mind and thus me that is diretly perceiving (and I have the feeling that my mind is between my earholes in what surgeons call the brain…and I have the feeling that “I” am seeing out from “my” eyeballs.
You looked for the ‘I’ in all of this earlier and could not find it –not even under the bed. You are a unique embodiment and therefore perceiving is unique to your specific mind/body. But, is there an ‘I’ as a manager/controller who all this happens to, or is controlled by?

Try this experiment: Spend a little time looking, listening, touching at/to things as you go about your business, or if you can as you go for a walk in nature. Can you notice there is no ‘I’ needed in any of this. Seeing happens all by itself, your eyes open and all there is to be seen is seen. ‘You’ cannot choose not to see what the eyes capture – seeing happens all by itself. When hearing a sound can ‘you’ choose not to allow the sounds? Or does hearing just happen? Run your fingers along your skin. Does feeling happen, or can ‘you’ choose not to allow feeling to happen? If some event/situation causes tension in you and a knot is felt in the stomach, can ‘you’ choose not to experience the knot? Or does it just happen. When you walk, does walking just happen or do you control it? Do ‘you’ give orders as in right leg forward, left leg forward, stop, turn left etc. or does it just happen.

Try to see these things for what they are in direct experience, without attaching a story. Watch how your mind will interject and claim directorship/ownership. It was taught to do this since the day you were born and reinforced throughout your life, so why wouldn’t it?

All you need to do here is see for yourself the ‘I’ isn’t real. Shell is, your conditioning, beliefs are all programming of that incredible bio computer called the brain. You are predisposed to be of a certain, unique expression of life, by virtue of this and your genetic make-up.

As I mentioned at the start of this thread I haven’t answered or addressed everything from you last one. I have read through it numerous times and appreciate all of it and may come back to it at a later time. But for now I really would like you to focus directly on whether or not there is an ‘I’ that is a separate individual. Anything else is likely to lead to debates, philosophising and such like which can use up many lifetimes without getting any nearer the truth.

Life is an incredible mystery that no amount of speculation or intellectualising will understand. The finite can never even begin to grasp the infinite.

Keep that focus, Shell, just on this direct experience and you will have broken out of your shell, Shell.

Much love

Chris

PS.. My support is 100% unwavering.

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Shell
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Shell » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:41 am

Good morning, dearest Chris,

Let me thank you again from the bottom of my heart for the massive amount of time and care and guidance that you have been extending to me, often more than once a day, through private messages. Now I feel, thank you to you, a lot more confident to return to this public thread and continue the journey on this thread. At least here, everyone can read the marvellous guidance you offer to me....Thank you, thank you, thank you xxx


I will post as soon as I can again...and in the meanwhile, I will continue with practical application of the guidance you give me. Directly looking...really seeing that there is seeing and what is being seen appearing to occur simultaneously but no personal "I seer " to be found...no personal "I" listener to be found...no personal "I" in any of it. Just the appearance of life lifing along...all without help from a non existant personal "me". To think I thought I was the personal director of a personal "this is MY" life ;-)

With love and deepest gratitude,
Shell xxx

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Chris7
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Chris7 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:51 am

Hi Shell

Thank you so much for this. I know you are working hard at this behind the scenes and your looking to see throughthe illusion of an 'I' as a separate self continues.

As soon as you are able let me know what you find (or don't find) or what the obstacles are, if any.

Much love

Chris

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Shell
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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Shell » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:59 am

Hi dear Chris,

There is a ligntening. A sense of tremendous relief. Relief because Shell is not directing the show. Relief because there is no need to judge whatever is happening in the show. And that all adds up to a tremendous sense of relief and an absence of responsibility to direct the show and judge positively or negatively the show. There seems to be a quietness now...and a lot of new verbs that you wont find in the Collins or OXford dictionary. Trees are treeing and leaves are leafing and petals are petaling and shells are shelling and clouds are clouding and wind is winding, etc.
Above all, there is just massive relief...and quietness. Is it happiness? I can not label it...but it does feel peaceful and content. Waves of emotions pass through...but they too, pass on. The audio script in the mind still chatters on, but that is feeling more like the audio section of a movie...so whether the commentary is "loving" or "murderous", it does not really matter.

There is a tremendous relief at living with whatever is happening in this moment. A sort of realisation that whatever is past is not what is happening now. And that whatever is future is also not happening now...So acceptance of what is happening now, whatever that is.

Much love and endless gratitude to you, sweet Chris,

Shell xxxxx

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Re: Longing to wake up. Would be tremendously grateful for g

Postby Chris7 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:44 am

Hi, Shell

A really wonderful realisation. The relief you feel shows you truly have seen through the illusion.

There seems to be a quietness now...and a lot of new verbs that you wont find in the Collins or OXford dictionary. Trees are treeing and leaves are leafing and petals are petaling and shells are shelling and clouds are clouding and wind is winding, etc.
Above all, there is just massive relief
Isn’t it a beautiful insight to see the reality without interjections of a doer?


The audio script in the mind still chatters on, but that is feeling more like the audio section of a movie...so whether the commentary is "loving" or "murderous", it does not really matter.

Again, Shell, yet another delightful realisation, recognising the chattering in the mind to be no more than a commentary that it is no more real than the ‘I’ it portrays itself to be and no more real than the ‘I’ it is assumed to be in the illusion.

I’m so pleased you’ve seen this and would like to ask one simple question:

Is there a separate self, an ‘I’, that can be found existing anywhere within this embodiment known as Shell?


If you can answer, ‘no there is no ‘I’ to be found’, (in direct experience, i.e. outside of intellect) that you are ready for the final questions.


I suspect you are ready for the final questions and if you agree please let me know in your next post.

Much love

Chris


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