Ready

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Justina
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Ready

Postby Justina » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:33 am

I posted this in the burning section first but decided that this tree-on-one would be better. A bit of copy and paste and here it is again.
Hello. I have read the book, done the app and doing alot of inquiry. Have been doing different inquirys for years, and read and listen to alot of non duality teachers and what have you. There has been some seeing and alot of glimpses. One moment very clear, the next not so clear again. It is like there is shifting back and forth. I can see that body works on automatic but when I get involved in something the old identification with body comes back, and there is a me doing again. The "I" is not so fixed anymore, like before it was more of a contraction that felt like the "i".
I dont have so mutch trouble with negative emotions, cause I don´t resist them like I use to.
My expectations about liberation is I guess to stop identifying with thoughts and stay in that seeing I have temporary in these glimpses and shifts or whatever to call it. And of course I want an end to the searching and desire for liberation.
And also I would like to add that I believe myself to be that wich acknowledges or "see´s/hears" thoughts. It is like there is a me that is listening and analyzing thoughts and emotions etc. I believe myself to be the witness. Like there is an imaginary self and a real self.

Anybody available to burn this me away.

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SeeEye
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Re: Ready

Postby SeeEye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:17 am

Hi Justina,

Let's take a look into this.

You agree to work hard, answer questions and post everyday, and we should be fine.

Let's start here...
What is going to happen when Liberation happens?

When you say you believe yourself the witness, are you pointing to your body, your eyes, a thought in the form of internal dialogue that says "I am the witness"??

Care,

CI

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Justina
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Re: Ready

Postby Justina » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:53 am

Hi SeeEye!

Thank you for taking the time to guide me. I agree to work hard and post every day.

"What is going to happen when Liberation happens?"

I imagine that liberation will mean an end to search and a end to be controlled by thoughts and beliefs. I believe it to be a relief. I also believe that my perceptions about reality changes in some way. And that I will feel like beeing home, and not separated. I expect it to be like in previous experiences I had where there is no sepration, and great relief.

"When you say you believe yourself the witness, are you pointing to your body, your eyes, a thought in the form of internal dialogue that says "I am the witness"??"

No, not to the body, not to thoughts, but to something formless that is aware of thoughts, experience, feelings, sensations. There seems to be separation, although there have been moments when there has been seen that it is nothing separating what is seeing and whats seen.

Thank you again for your time.

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SeeEye
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Re: Ready

Postby SeeEye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:37 pm

Great, let's take a look at some of this and get started.
I imagine that liberation will mean an end to search and a end to be controlled by thoughts and beliefs. I believe it to be a relief. I also believe that my perceptions about reality changes in some way. And that I will feel like beeing home, and not separated. I expect it to be like in previous experiences I had where there is no sepration, and great relief.
Let's not compare it to previous experiences...if you have not been there it makes no sense to put expectations on it. A lot of people are waiting to finally "be home" and then the angels ring a gong.

What arises for you when I say "If you are waiting for something to happen, don't worry. Nothing is going to happen" ?

No separation refers to non-duality. Saying that you are awareness is another matter also. Some say these are further realizations, some say they are not. Since we are looking into no-self, we need to stay solely on that task.

Look into this....you say you believe that you are formless awareness...and you know this because a thought comes along and says "I am this something that is aware of thoughts". This is no different from internal dialogue that says "I need to do the dishes" and "I wish I didn't feel so separate". Awareness itself isn't talking in your head, you are. Who is the "you" that is making the statements?

Care

CI

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Justina
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Re: Ready

Postby Justina » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:21 pm

Thank you.

"Let's not compare it to previous experiences...if you have not been there it makes no sense to put expectations on it. A lot of people are waiting to finally "be home" and then the angels ring a gong."

Ok. Yes.

"What arises for you when I say "If you are waiting for something to happen, don't worry. Nothing is going to happen?"

3 things happen. First a sense of disappointment. Then a sense of mind wanting to get around that, like something will happen but will not be experienced as "a happening". And then the question what does "don´t worrie" imply. The mind (or thoughts) wants to understand and find something to hold on to, like something that gives hope.

"No separation refers to non-duality. Saying that you are awareness is another matter also. Some say these are further realizations, some say they are not. Since we are looking into no-self, we need to stay solely on that task."

Ok. I get that. There is alot of non- duality concepts and ideas floating around here that colours the experience and language I use.

"Look into this....you say you believe that you are formless awareness...and you know this because a thought comes along and says "I am this something that is aware of thoughts". This is no different from internal dialogue that says "I need to do the dishes" and "I wish I didn't feel so separate". Awareness itself isn't talking in your head, you are. Who is the "you" that is making the statements?"

Yes. The awarness does not speak or think, a thought comes in after saying this is what I am and this is what I am experiencing.
When a thought shows up and is believed there is no awarness about it, it is only a thought that comes up and with that often a feeling or a sensation or contraction that makes it feel like me experiencing it. And then comes more thoughts about those thoughts, feelings and sensations.
When you ask " Who is the "you" that is making the statements?" this is when it gets tricky. I ask and look and I am waiting for an answer or to realise something but nothing comes. It gets very quiet and it is what is seen or what is felt, and sensations of waiting, wanting to see something. But I cannot find a me. It is still a sense of there being a me, that is waiting to see the me, or to not see the me. What also comes up is a sense of contraction in the cheast area, like this is somehow me.

I will look in to this harder and write more tomorrow.

grateful.

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SeeEye
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Re: Ready

Postby SeeEye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:59 pm

Outstanding...
When you ask " Who is the "you" that is making the statements?" this is when it gets tricky. I ask and look and I am waiting for an answer or to realise something but nothing comes. It gets very quiet and it is what is seen or what is felt, and sensations of waiting, wanting to see something. But I cannot find a me. It is still a sense of there being a me, that is waiting to see the me, or to not see the me. What also comes up is a sense of contraction in the cheast area, like this is somehow me.
Yes. You can observe the tension and say "thank you" to it. Experiencing happens, then thoughts come in and label and claim ownership, compare, ask "why no enlightenment experience" ....etc. Watch the train of thoughts after the experience.

If nothing comes, and there is no "self" to come out, then why are you waiting for something to come? Nothing can come. No-thing is correct, so it cannot come and show itself...it is just not there, is it.

You are right there.

Work with this, watch the thoughts that tell you something should come, watch all thoughts and experiences, and then ask again and then silence and dark.

Let me know how it goes.

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Justina
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Re: Ready

Postby Justina » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:31 am

"Yes. You can observe the tension and say "thank you" to it. Experiencing happens, then thoughts come in and label and claim ownership, compare, ask "why no enlightenment experience" ....etc. Watch the train of thoughts after the experience."

Last night was a trip. I think every emotion possible came up. I did as you said and I said thank you. With no thoughts attached, it was just emotions coming and going.

It is still some kind of "waiting" for something to happen, but it changes to another thought like, "this can´t be it" or it hasn´t happened because I don´t see what is funny yet (actually that thought is funny). It feels very hard to not have expectations come up. Even if I see there is just waiting or wanting something to happen it still feels very real.

"If nothing comes, and there is no "self" to come out, then why are you waiting for something to come? Nothing can come. No-thing is correct, so it cannot come and show itself...it is just not there, is it."

Yes, in one way this seems so obvious, yet in another this is where I feel stuck. Somehow it feels like I am so so close, but close to what? There are theese thoughts and expectations moving me away from the obvious and it seems impossible to not get sucked in to it, also because they change. Like "ok, that thought might not have been so real, but wait, this one is. And it starts over. The thoughts seem to come so quick so its only after I can see it. But is it not only another thought saying something about the previous thought, says one thought now. Seems like I am just chasing my own tail.


"Work with this, watch the thoughts that tell you something should come, watch all thoughts and experiences, and then ask again and then silence and dark."

Yes, thank you. I have to keep looking at this. There is some frustration about it at the moment.

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SeeEye
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Re: Ready

Postby SeeEye » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:25 pm

You keep doing this great work by telling me what comes up, and I will keep pointing you.

Frustration is good...observe it. Ask 'Who in there is so frustrated?"

What is the reply that comes? Who gives it?
Yes, in one way this seems so obvious, yet in another this is where I feel stuck. Somehow it feels like I am so so close, but close to what? There are theese thoughts and expectations moving me away from the obvious and it seems impossible to not get sucked in to it, also because they change. Like "ok, that thought might not have been so real, but wait, this one is. And it starts over. The thoughts seem to come so quick so its only after I can see it. But is it not only another thought saying something about the previous thought, says one thought now. Seems like I am just chasing my own tail.
One can always get caught up in thought.

Look at the thoughts and expectations....expectations are thoughts telling you what it should be, what it isn't.

Thoughts are real...you have the 5 senses and thinking = the 6 doors. All are real, just nobody in there to own them. Thought telling you there is "I" in there owning the thoughts and especially the feelings is the best it can come up with. Thought after thought chained together but chained around no-self....does not make a self in there.

Like a song that has lyrics that repeat over and over "There is a unicorn, feel the unicorn, see....the feeling is it...the feeling is proof" and there is no unicorn in the song. There is record player, there is record, but no unicorn inside of the record. song just words and melody....it is a story that has never been looked into.

Are your feelings proof? At one time you felt fear there were monsters under the bed. It was very real, and if someone said you were being silly, you were offended because those were "YOUR" feelings. Look under the bed....what is really under there? Go look.

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Justina
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Re: Ready

Postby Justina » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:36 am

Hello again. Last night I came very caught up in drama. I havn´t been for many years. I lost focus, But today has been different. There has been this silence. Almost loud. Thoughts coming up about "yesterday" but has nothing to do with reality. It is just thoughts coming up.

"Frustration is good...observe it. Ask 'Who in there is so frustrated?"
What is the reply that comes? Who gives it?"

When i sit with this I cannot find anyone who is frustrated, there is just frustration. There is no reply, only silence, only feelings and seeing the room I sit in. Then a thought comes up, about something completly different. Not about reality or what is now.


"Look at the thoughts and expectations....expectations are thoughts telling you what it should be, what it isn't."

Yes, this is clear when I sit with it. Thoughts have nothing to do with reality, with what is. Some can be, but it is mostly about what´s going to happen, or what should be happening... or what has happend.


"Thoughts are real...you have the 5 senses and thinking = the 6 doors. All are real, just nobody in there to own them. Thought telling you there is "I" in there owning the thoughts and especially the feelings is the best it can come up with. Thought after thought chained together but chained around no-self....does not make a self in there."


Yes, the feelings that come with the thought makes the thought seem true. But even seeing this it feels like there is a me seeing this, someone being aware. It feels real.


"Like a song that has lyrics that repeat over and over "There is a unicorn, feel the unicorn, see....the feeling is it...the feeling is proof" and there is no unicorn in the song. There is record player, there is record, but no unicorn inside of the record. song just words and melody....it is a story that has never been looked into."


This is funny. And also strange, feels like standing before a free fall. How can this I not be there? what comes up is confusion.


"Are your feelings proof? At one time you felt fear there were monsters under the bed. It was very real, and if someone said you were being silly, you were offended because those were "YOUR" feelings. Look under the bed....what is really under there? Go look."


Feelings are just feelings, they come and they go. But again the feeling of an I that is aware of feelings is here. But... I can´t find it, and say this is the I. Because when I look, there is just seeing. The thought "This is me" shows up. Oh and more confusion, it is just a thought, and then seeing, waiting, silence.

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SeeEye
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Re: Ready

Postby SeeEye » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:19 pm

Feelings are just feelings, they come and they go. But again the feeling of an I that is aware of feelings is here. But... I can´t find it, and say this is the I. Because when I look, there is just seeing. The thought "This is me" shows up. Oh and more confusion, it is just a thought, and then seeing, waiting, silence.
Awareness is aware of feelings, the 6 doors.

Try this:

Sit down, take a deep breath. Close eyes, then tap on one hand with the other several times. Notice the sensations.

Then notice thought label this. There is a gap between experience and thought.

Notice what your feet are on. Then look for thought to come in. "Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking about my feet, how funny"

Now in this same way, notice your feelings/emotions arise, then thought comes along and starts talking.

Now, is the sensation occurs before thought can say "There is a sensation, so therefore "I" am there to feel it"...but you had the sensation before the thought....then apparently the organism doesn't need to thought to be there to have the experience.

Watch this in what you are doing, in anything. Cooking, cleaning, showering....lot's of experiencing, and THEN the thinking. What about the steps you were taking with your feet that you didn't notice, or the breathing....no DOER inside.

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Justina
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Re: Ready

Postby Justina » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:27 am

HI. First I just wan´t to say that there has been something different in perception. For example when I am listening to music, there is no filter, the music is direct and I can´t say where it comes from and who is listening. It is Only the music. Colors are more sharp and things look more "real" and close. And looking in the mirror, there is no contracted sense that that is me, it is only a image just like looking at a table, same thing.
I also notice that the body moves on automatic. But still, it is a huge difference from being alone without distractions from being in situations like at work or interacting with other people. So it feels like effort is needed.

"Sit down, take a deep breath. Close eyes, then tap on one hand with the other several times. Notice the sensations."
"Then notice thought label this. There is a gap between experience and thought."

Yes, the thought comes in after, the thought is never in the present. I notice that if the thought does not come in, then there is only sensations, yes. No arm, no one doing. Just that.


"Notice what your feet are on. Then look for thought to come in. "Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking about my feet, how funny""

It´s more of an mental image then a thought, a noticing. Very automatic and subtle. The feet wasn´t even there before I thought of them.


"Now in this same way, notice your feelings/emotions arise, then thought comes along and starts talking."


Yes," ah the feeling means this and maybe I should do something about it", this is what is happening" kind of thoughts. Sensations in the body, thought comes in and says "I am cold, I should close the window".


"Now, is the sensation occurs before thought can say "There is a sensation, so therefore "I" am there to feel it"...but you had the sensation before the thought....then apparently the organism doesn't need to thought to be there to have the experience."

Yes.

"Watch this in what you are doing, in anything. Cooking, cleaning, showering....lot's of experiencing, and THEN the thinking. What about the steps you were taking with your feet that you didn't notice, or the breathing....no DOER inside."


Thank you. I will take this with me today.

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Justina
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Re: Ready

Postby Justina » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:43 pm

This I or me is inside the experience? just like I imagine a future or a past, the I is imagined? The I can't be aware because something is aware of it? It' s inside? There is something noticing that it's all experience. Am i on the right track with this?

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SeeEye
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Re: Ready

Postby SeeEye » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:03 am

This I or me is inside the experience?
No - not there at all.
just like I imagine a future or a past, the I is imagined?
Yes. Just like the dot on the map that says Detroit. It does not contain anything but the reference.
The I can't be aware because something is aware of it?
This is what you need to look into, look inside for. When you say "I" can or can't be aware, you are implying that this "I" can be located, or is there. It is an implication, a reference, a sign pointing to something. "Unicorn" is also this. It doesn't point to anything that is real. You can have thoughts, mental pictures of unicorn, an Illustration like Bugs Bunny, but cannot find the real unicorn.

You want to look and see if there is a real "I" inside. It's not thoughts, not the senses, so not the 6 doors.
It' s inside? There is something noticing that it's all experience. Am i on the right track with this?
For now say that awareness is aware, and leave it at that. You are waiting to realize there is no self, so don't let "I" claim to be awareness, because most of what happens it is not aware of anyway.
Yes, the thought comes in after, the thought is never in the present. I notice that if the thought does not come in, then there is only sensations, yes. No arm, no one doing. Just that.
This is the right track. There is only sensations, no one doing. "I" is a thought concept. If experience comes before thought, then what and how does the "i" arise? It arises as thought that says "I" did that, that happened to "me" but it is just a thought that comes after. Try it with any experience...you feel cold water, then thought starts labeling self, mine, temperature, and will keep on labeling the "I" like a chain of "I" thoughts. So you look in the present for this "self" and all you get is internal dialogue frantically labeling and talking. OR you get silence.


All thought is mental images, internal dialogue, 5 senses.
It´s more of an mental image then a thought, a noticing. Very automatic and subtle. The feet wasn´t even there before I thought of them.
Where is the "I" before you think of it? DO this: watch your experiences, looking at objects, showering, walking. No matter how hard you try to be fully present with just you and object, you and experience, you will forget and be doing all kinds without having an "i". then "I" will pop back into thought and internal dialogue. Then you realize that it must not have needed to exist in order to walk up the stairs, put the milk away. Thought is there, 5 senses are there, but unlike your feet as you mention above, "I" has never been there.

Work on this, reread the last few posts, jot down what sticks for you, what seems to work, and stay with it. It's not about collecting stories as much as it will be to do the looking for yourself and keeping at it. It's like looking or the keys, you will know when you find them.

Let me know what's going on for you with this.

Much Care,

CI

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Justina
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Re: Ready

Postby Justina » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:46 pm

Hello again. Here is what comes up.

"This is what you need to look into, look inside for. When you say "I" can or can't be aware, you are implying that this "I" can be located, or is there. It is an implication, a reference, a sign pointing to something. "Unicorn" is also this. It doesn't point to anything that is real. You can have thoughts, mental pictures of unicorn, an Illustration like Bugs Bunny, but cannot find the real unicorn."
"You want to look and see if there is a real "I" inside. It's not thoughts, not the senses, so not the 6 doors."


When I look I can´t find anything but this mental image and sensation in cheast area that says this is "I" or "me". It doesn´t "click". It feels real, like that is me. But not anyway near as real as it used to. There is definitly serious daoubt about this "I" really being there, or here, or anywhere.


"For now say that awareness is aware, and leave it at that. You are waiting to realize there is no self, so don't let "I" claim to be awareness, because most of what happens it is not aware of anyway."


Yes, waiting is still there, waiting for the "click". True, I see this, awarness comes and goes. Thought comes in after saying I was aware when I actually wasn´t. It was just happening on it´s own.


"This is the right track. There is only sensations, no one doing. "I" is a thought concept. If experience comes before thought, then what and how does the "i" arise? It arises as thought that says "I" did that, that happened to "me" but it is just a thought that comes after. Try it with any experience...you feel cold water, then thought starts labeling self, mine, temperature, and will keep on labeling the "I" like a chain of "I" thoughts. So you look in the present for this "self" and all you get is internal dialogue frantically labeling and talking. OR you get silence."


Today when taking a shower it was noticed that it was just that happening. feeling the water, hot water, hands washing hair. And it was all automatic, like noone was there. Not even a witness. Thought or awarness was not needed at all. It was no me doing anything. But that did not last. The "me" doing stuff came back again. And now thoughts about what was seen or happend comes and "looks back in time" telling what happened. I have this image of an event happening when I get it and it will last. And there is a narrator voice telling the story in the background. All very silly. :)


"Where is the "I" before you think of it? DO this: watch your experiences, looking at objects, showering, walking. No matter how hard you try to be fully present with just you and object, you and experience, you will forget and be doing all kinds without having an "i". then "I" will pop back into thought and internal dialogue. Then you realize that it must not have needed to exist in order to walk up the stairs, put the milk away. Thought is there, 5 senses are there, but unlike your feet as you mention above, "I" has never been there.

Work on this, reread the last few posts, jot down what sticks for you, what seems to work, and stay with it. It's not about collecting stories as much as it will be to do the looking for yourself and keeping at it. It's like looking or the keys, you will know when you find them."


Yes, "Where is the "I" before I think of it? It doesn´t exist before the thought. Good pointers. Thank you. I will continue looking in to it.

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SeeEye
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Re: Ready

Postby SeeEye » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:25 pm

Hi Justina,

Keep up the good work, the looking into.
When I look I can´t find anything but this mental image and sensation in cheast area that says this is "I" or "me". It doesn´t "click". It feels real, like that is me. But not anyway near as real as it used to. There is definitly serious daoubt about this "I" really being there, or here, or anywhere.

Great, now check this out carefully. Here you are using thought and feeling to describe "I" and "me". Thought/sight = a mental image. This is thought. Image comes after experience, like a photo is a "representation" of an object. You see a picture of yourself in your head, but you are just seeing "that body". Hearing/thought= "click". Feeling/sensation in chest = kinesthetic sense. You can observe this (after the fact) and say "There is tension in chest, or constriction in chest".

You are trying to use your strategy to KNOW there is no-self, but you have to peek around your strategy...the knowing and realization you are looking for won't come how you are expecting. In fact, one can't have expectation of the unknown, because how would you know what to look for? This is memory trying to steer you forward.

You are expecting to realize something, and then you will have a feeling of some sort, and then you will say "I got it!" So you have lost your keys, and there they are on the table, and you are looking right at them, but you do't yet recognize them, BECAUSE....you are focusing on some internal experience, some visualization, and you are checking for some feeling, and your internal dialogue is saying "no, not yet, I don't think so, WTF!, come on already, maybe it's never going to happen" and then more thought is visualizing, etc. AND, you are looking at the keys. I am telling you to just see the keys, and you are stuck in your own process of expecting/disproving.

NOW....take all of that, and that can be observed. All of this is going on after the fact, and you know this, and are working with this. So turn around inside yourself and look inside and see if there is an "I" that can be found, that is not-all-that. Close your eyes, and look inside. What do you get?

Don't be waiting for some magickal, all-loving state to overtake you and then you will be held in this lovely state....accept that this will not be the case, quit using this preconception as "proof", and just look. The benefit of the seeing will unfold on it's own, without a doer or one who "expects". This doesn't always happen as a thunderbolt, or a CLICK...it is different for everyone. In my case I saw it, and then thought kept badgering me and it had to settle in for a while.

Be good with "there is nothing to gain, and no-one to gain it". If you have a reaction to this, run with it.

You said you can't find anything but this....re-read what you typed a few times.

Now try to find the no-unicorn with your strategy, look for it, and please explain to me why you can't find the no-unicorn.


Much love,

CI


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