Richard511, this is your thread

[nonaparry]

Richard, let us begin here. Please describe in detail your expectations for what is going to/supposed to happen as a result of your seeing through the illusion of self.

love
Nona

[Richard511]

Hi Nona,

Quite literally get ‘myself’ out of the way; to have this new perspective as a way to truly experience life.

In the past eight or so months, I have been working on ‘removing the veils’, letting go of attachment to outcome, understanding intellectually and at times viscerally, that there is this illusion of self. For short periods of time, I can relate to what some who have seen through the illusion of self have experienced as reported in GG. Periods of seeing the world in an entirely new way – seeing it for the first time. Colors are vibrant, the world is just simply wonderful and alive! Ie: ‘Holy crap! Have seen that 1,000 times before and never noticed how beautiful!’ I have also had experiences where life events that were previously challenging are less ‘sticky’ as some call it; what I used to view as a problem just flows and resolves without the historical drama, the events just are. To the extent possible, I want to have that experience of flow, vibrancy, creativity, nimbleness as much as possible.

I ‘see’ direct seeing as laser-focused work that breaks through all illusion/veils and will release thoughts/perspective that hinder ‘my’ living life.

I want to be happier; I want to be less encumbered by the negative overhead that I seem to carry around at times. In total honesty, I hope this process helps me with weight/health as well as shift to a life of total abundance and fulfillment. (OK, just being honest! :) )

I see this seeing through illusion of self as a great basis for true (?) learning. Ie: without the distortion of the veils/illusion, I am excited about having a different experience of learning, growing, and other possibilities ‘after’.

much love and gratitude,
richard

[nonaparry]

Hi Richard,
I'm looking at your expectations/wants and see some confusion which I will attempt to clear up.

Quite literally get ‘myself’ out of the way

That's easy; there is no 'yourself' at all, so nothing to get in the way.

To the extent possible, I want to have that experience of flow, vibrancy, creativity, nimbleness as much as possible.

You are having that experience already; you are just labeling it something else.
Check it: an experience happens, and mind judges and labels it as good/bad, vibrant/dull, flowing/stopped, creative/stagnant. These are just labels—words applied to events by the mind. They have no impact on the actual event that happens—they only impact our later thoughts about those labels.

Notice that life goes on with or without our labels. What happens when you have an experience without labeling it?

I ‘see’ direct seeing as laser-focused work that breaks through all illusion/veils and will release thoughts/perspective that hinder ‘my’ living life.

Um. No. Direct seeing is opening the eyes in your head and actually LOOKing with them. What you said is THINKing, not LOOKing. The illusion is entirely thought; what allows us to 'see through' illusion is clear looking. Really. When you see there is no self at all outside of a thought, you may be astonished at how we completely overlook the obvious.
Understanding the difference between Thinking and Looking is absolutely key here.

I want to be happier

That's easy, too: just change how you label your experiences. When it rains, label it good. When it's sunny, label it good. When you're broke, label it good. You might as well: it's all what's happening anyway whether you label it good or not!

In total honesty, I hope this process helps me with weight/health as well as shift to a life of total abundance and fulfillment.

Wow. You don't want much, do you?? ;-)
Good. Total Honesty is absolutely required here. And I will say that while seeing through the illusion of self is only noticing that there is no "me" and never was, it is also my experience that seeing this has an effect on how I perceive my life. (Your mileage, of course, may vary.)
You are already living "a life of total abundance and fulfillment"; you are being supported by the universe completely and unconditionally at all times. Seeing that life is living itself with no "I" in control may help you discover how supported you already are, but it's not going to make a deposit to your bank account.

I see this seeing through illusion of self as a great basis for true (?) learning.

Hmmmm. Is there 'false' learning? Or is there only Learning? True/false are labels we use to make distinctions between thoughts. We say, this thought is 'true', that one 'false'; but in reality they are simply thoughts. The thought comes, and mind labels it.

I am excited about having a different experience of learning, growing, and other possibilities ‘after’.

Life and circumstances will be exactly the same 'after'; life itself doesn't change one iota. What changes is we SEE that there is no self living life. That is all. A shift in perspective. And what a shift it is! Minutely small, infinitely powerful.

Respond to my remarks and questions and let's move on.
love
Nona

[Richard511]

Hi Nona,

Please find my answers below.

Check it: an experience happens, and mind judges and labels it as good/bad, vibrant/dull, flowing/stopped, creative/stagnant. These are just labels—words applied to events by the mind. They have no impact on the actual event that happens—they only impact our later thoughts about those labels.

Ans: I do see this. So, for example, I have a self-less experience. After the fact (as evidenced from above, I judge it as good and I want ‘more’ of it. I also ‘notice’/label it as timeless, peaceful, etc.

Notice that life goes on with or without our labels. What happens when you have an experience without labeling it?

Ans: When I have an experience without labels, it ‘just is’. I don’t have any real sense of time and one thing flows to the next. Nothing really has to ‘happen’ at all.

Wow. You don't want much, do you?? ;-)

Ans: LOL! Understand. It’s not as ‘direct’ as a bank deposit. I already see life changing as I shed some of the veils, which (honestly), makes me think there is a payoff. . I henceforth release all attachment to outcome.

Hmmmm. Is there 'false' learning? Or is there only Learning? True/false are labels we use to make distinctions between thoughts. We say, this thought is 'true', that one 'false'; but in reality they are simply thoughts. The thought comes, and mind labels it.

Ans. Agree that the mind labels the thoughts/learning. Speaking from what I at least perceive to be my current perspective, that with this mind labeling and my attachment to those labels, ‘true’ learning is difficult because of the distortion created. The message doesn’t cleanly ‘get through’. So, without the encumbrance of labels having the weight/prominence that I currently give them, I would hope to have a much better, clearer path to getting the message.

Lastly, I realize that some of the answers above are conflicting and certainly not in line with seeing through the illusion. I’m trying to give you open, honest, and relatively unedited feedback. If I need to do something different, please let me know.

Thank you Nona.
Richard

[nonaparry]

When I have an experience without labels, it ‘just is’. I don’t have any real sense of time and one thing flows to the next. Nothing really has to ‘happen’ at all.

Yes. And when you have an experience with labels, it 'just is' TOO! The labels are empty; they are only mind's attempt to separate and categorise the inseparable.
Noticing the difference between actual experience and labels, between 'the map' and 'the territory', is key here. If you have any confusion at all, let us address it!

I henceforth release all attachment to outcome.

Excellent! The less you demand that your experience meet your expectations, the easier it will be to SEE there is no self and never has been.

Speaking from what I at least perceive to be my current perspective, that with this mind labeling and my attachment to those labels, ‘true’ learning is difficult because of the distortion created.

How can you differentiate 'true' learning from 'false' learning? Is it even possible to divide learning? Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by 'learning'.

I would hope to have a much better, clearer path to getting the message.

There is no You to 'get' the message.

I realize that some of the answers above are conflicting and certainly not in line with seeing through the illusion. I’m trying to give you open, honest, and relatively unedited feedback.

I have no idea what is "in line with seeing through the illusion". Life is paradoxical. We will not resolve all the paradoxes; we simply want to take a good look at reality. Open, honest, and unedited are the way to go here. If I question one of your answers it is because either I found it confusing or I want you to look again or deeper.


Next, please notice and describe what happens, what thoughts arise, what physical sensations happen, when I tell you "There is no self at all in reality. No you that lives 'your' life. Nada, zero, zilch. That "I", "me", "self" are empty labels with no existence in reality."
Is there fear? Anger? Resistance? Relief?
Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down here in writing.

love
Nona

[nonaparry]

I'm going to respond to your email query here, as it has a direct bearing on what we are doing here.

You asked

Are you saying map is a representation of reality, and territory is the real, actual thing you can
touch?

Yes, absolutely. A map is an Image of the territory, but not the territory itself! You can walk on the map and not see a single tree or hill or road.
This distinction is key for seeing there is no separate self at all, and never has been.
For example, think of a cup. See its shape, colour, dimensions, pattern. Got it?
You have a clear image of the cup, but you cannot drink from it.

The thought is Real; you have the thought, you are aware of it. The content of the thought is Imaginary; it is an image.

Happy looking!!
love
Nona

[Richard511]

Hi Nona,

Noticing the difference between actual experience and labels, between 'the map' and 'the territory', is key here. If you have any confusion at all, let us address it!

I see actual experience as real. It is simply what is happening. I see labels as concepts, which are not real. I see a label as something that is produced with some regularity in our mind, which is OK, as long as we distinguish that labels aren’t reality. Last check: Labels ‘just are’. Is it the meaning we give to the labels that is the issue? Ie: we lose perspective when we treat the labels as real?

Next, please notice and describe what happens, what thoughts arise, what physical sensations happen, when I tell you "There is no self at all in reality. No you that lives 'your' life. Nada, zero, zilch. That "I", "me", "self" are empty labels with no existence in reality."
Is there fear? Anger? Resistance? Relief?
Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down here in writing.

The first response appears to be resistance. Pretty much ‘how can no-self even be possible?’ after reading GG, this question is not a surprise, yet answering in earnest for myself is so much different than reading about it. I feel enmeshed with this identity of ‘me’. Feels tough to make much distinction between this concept of self and reality.

I think of myself as ‘driving’ my life, which I do recognize as odd given so much happens that I can’t and don’t control. Only the thing ‘I’ put focus on is ‘appearing controlled’ while everything else goes on anyway.

I recognize intellectually that there is no self… I recognize that it is a thought, a concept. Can’t touch it or see it. Similar to the ‘spider man’ example in GG. I do understand that.

Fear: What’s left if no self? If I am ‘being lived’, what am I supposed to ‘do’? (I think the answer is there is I don’t do anything), but then I have this image of me being a piece of cork just bobbing on the waves of the ocean. Seems kind of pointless.

On the other hand, I do have some experience ‘being in the moment’ (minimal thought, minimal attachment to labels), for periods of time, I do have the perspective that life simply ‘presents’ itself. This is not something to be feared; to put a label on it, it is a peaceful and enjoyable state. As I write, I now see this cultural/world view of ‘you control your destiny’ kind of thing. If no self, what am I supposed to control? (nothing…), but there is fear that there will be a void somewhere without self.

Love and gratitude,
Richard

[nonaparry]

Is it the meaning we give to the labels that is the issue? Ie: we lose perspective when we treat the labels as real?

ALL meaning, whether of labels or anything else, is bestowed by us. There is nothing with inherent meaning. So treating anything as meaning anything other than what we say it means will get us into difficulty.

answering in earnest for myself is so much different than reading about it

Yes, indeed! And Looking for it is so much different from Thinking about it. :-)

Feels tough to make much distinction between this concept of self and reality.

Go back to the cup:

think of a cup. See its shape, colour, dimensions, pattern. Got it?
You have a clear image of the cup, but you cannot drink from it.
The thought is Real; you have the thought, you are aware of it. The content of the thought is Imaginary; it is an image.

This is a helpful way to see how the concept, of self or anything else, is only a thought.

I think of myself as ‘driving’ my life

Do you ever arrive somewhere and realise you were "on autopilot"? You have arrived but have no distinct memory of how you got there? What is 'driving' then? How about habits? What 'drives' behaviours you do without thought?

I recognize intellectually that there is no self… I recognize that it is a thought, a concept. Can’t touch it or see it. Similar to the ‘spider man’ example in GG. I do understand that.

Good!! Intellectual understanding is the first step. It helps that you realise this is only intellectual understanding.

Fear: What’s left if no self? If I am ‘being lived’, what am I supposed to ‘do’? (I think the answer is there is I don’t do anything), but then I have this image of me being a piece of cork just bobbing on the waves of the ocean. Seems kind of pointless.

Great description!! There is already no self; you are indeed 'being lived', right now!—are you a cork bobbing in an ocean? Does your work get done? Do your physical needs get cared for? There is nothing to 'do'; Life just happens. Working happens, caretaking happens, and there is no DO-er doing them.
LOOK as you go about your day; is there a little worker inside that ensures that work gets done instead of bobbing? Or does work just get done? Is there a little caretaker inside that ensures you bathe, eat, clean your teeth? Or does self-care simply happen? Check it!

If no self, what am I supposed to control? (nothing…), but there is fear that there will be a void somewhere without self.

That's a common fear. But there is already no self; you don't lose anything at all. Life continues in its customary format; only you SEE that the label 'self' is empty!
The difference between SEEing that Life is living itself and believing there is a controller is merely a shift in perspective; "seeing no self is not an experience but a realization".

Notice that Fear is trying to protect 'you'. But there is no 'you' to protect! 'You' is a label that only points to other thoughts about a 'you'; it doesn't point to anything Real.

love
Nona

[Richard511]

Hi Nona,

Below is response to one of your questions. More forthcoming. Finding myself being tired and sleeping a good bit the past few days.

Do you ever arrive somewhere and realise you were "on autopilot"? You have arrived but have no distinct memory of how you got there? What is 'driving' then? How about habits? What 'drives' behaviours you do without thought?

Right, in the case of driving on ‘autopilot’, perhaps I can say that it wasn’t ‘me’ or ‘self’ driving. Driving was happening. There was no ‘I’ in the middle, driving just happened, like breathing, digesting, growing hair, walking, etc.

The above is an academic perspective. I can see that most things go on without ‘me’ in them. So, I start to look at what ‘I’ am trying to control or get in the middle of. What comes is that ‘I’ is feeling pain about the past, worrying about the future, worrying about what others think of ‘me’. This is a big revelation. Seems that what ‘I’ am in the middle of is nothing. I understand there is no I, and also seeing the energy historically given to ‘self’ is a complete waste. This also helps me connect the dots with ‘Loving What Is’ a bit. You are the expert, my dear friend Nona, but I see how ‘self’ is ‘in others people’s business’ (and/or future/past states), to use KT’s vernacular. I’ll keep other ‘learning’ out, but wanted to make the connection.

More later...
Love,
Richard

[nonaparry]

Hi Richard,

in the case of driving on ‘autopilot’, perhaps I can say that it wasn’t ‘me’ or ‘self’ driving. Driving was happening. There was no ‘I’ in the middle, driving just happened, like breathing, digesting, growing hair, walking, etc.

"Perhaps"?? What in your experience does not work like this? What in your experience requires a Do-er in order to happen? Not what in your Thinking, but what in your Direct Experience?

The above is an academic perspective. I can see that most things go on without ‘me’ in them.

You could see that if you LOOKed, but you are not SEEing that "most things go on without ‘me’ in them." You are THINKing that.
Mental effort is wasted here; no one has ever thought his way to liberation. Open the eyes in your head and LOOK at Life happening; do you see a 'me' in any of what is happening at all?

‘I’ is feeling pain about the past, worrying about the future, worrying about what others think of ‘me’.

So this empty label is judging an experience about a non-existent time and bothering itself in other peoples' business? Hahaha!! Good one!

I see how ‘self’ is ‘in others people’s business’ (and/or future/past states), to use KT’s vernacular.

Do you see that Experientially? or mentally? Please check! We mental types have a tendency to say "I see" for "I think" or "I understand mentally".

I'm so glad you know The Work; what we are doing here is essentially The Work on the thought "'I' — is it true?"

Rest well.
love
Nona

[Richard511]

Hi Nona,

What in your experience requires a Do-er in order to happen? Not what in your Thinking, but what in your Direct Experience?

No experience requires a do-er. Period.

I really tried to find a do-er that makes my experiences happen. Did not find at all. What I have come to realize is that the illusory ‘I’ appears to have an ‘orchestrator’ who, in my thinking, is keeping ‘me’ on task. Keeping ‘me’ doing the things ‘I’ need to be doing in order to live life.

Richard: I see how ‘self’ is ‘in others people’s business’ (and/or future/past states), to use KT’s vernacular.

Nona: Do you see that Experientially? or mentally? Please check! We mental types have a tendency to say "I see" for "I think" or "I understand mentally".

Let’s check: First off, I have not read a bunch of books or have some pre-conceived notions here related to non duality. What I am coming to understand here is not from some concept I read about, but from gaining some understanding from reflection on your questions and how they relate in my life. So, I think this first step is about looking inside myself; perhaps it is a mental exercise from the standpoint that I am thinking about this dynamic of ‘self’ being ‘in other people’s business’ in my life. However, I am relating to it and understanding it through my own historical experience, which, I think is experientially?? I understand ‘self’ is nothing; just trying to describe to you the prison I think I’ve built for myself, and seeing clearly how it operated.

Open the eyes in your head and LOOK at Life happening; do you see a 'me' in any of what is happening at all?

I took a walk and looked around at everything. Life was just happening; didn’t see a ‘me’. Traffic on the main road kept flowing, traffic lights worked, trees and grass were growing, legs kept moving this body, eyes moved around without any required direction; seemingly aligned with a thought of some type. I observed. That was mostly it – just looked. I had the thought that I grew-up, and no assistance required in the process. There was no self guiding, no ‘I’ telling my body what to do, etc. It just happened. Requisite amounts of sleep, exercise, food, etc were utilized in the process; there was no ‘I’ to manage or direct any of it.

Thank you Nona.
Love,
Richard

[nonaparry]

Hi Richard,

I really tried to find a do-er that makes my experiences happen.

GOOD! It's good that you're working for this. I really want you to look for anything at all that "makes my experiences happen".

the illusory ‘I’ appears to have an ‘orchestrator’ who, in my thinking, is keeping ‘me’ on task. Keeping ‘me’ doing the things ‘I’ need to be doing in order to live life.

Has the "I" moved from a Do-er to an "orchestrator"? There is no "I" at all, not do-ing, not orchestrating. Check your experience: Point with your finger to the Orchestrator and tell me what you see with your eyes.
What would happen if 'you' were not kept 'on task'? Are there things 'you' need to be Do-ing in order to live Life? Are there doings that are not simply happening by themselves that require an orchestrator? Please really look.

I understand ‘self’ is nothing; just trying to describe to you the prison I think I’ve built for myself, and seeing clearly how it operated.

Yes. I get that you understand. And I want you to SEE that 'self' is nothing. Experientially. That self is a word, a label, that is used in communication but points to nothing that exists in reality.
You looked at trees, grass, traffic lights...notice that the label 'tree' is not a real tree, does not have bark and leaves, but points to real trees that really exist. The label/word 'grass' points to real growing stuff. The label 'traffic light' points to a mechanical/electronic device that exists in reality. But the label 'self' only points to more thoughts about self; there is no self you can point to, touch, see. None at all.

This is important because the label and the object are different logical types even though we use the same language to convey both. The word 'tree' is used Both as a label AND for the growing living barky leafy reality.

I took a walk and looked around at everything. Life was just happening; didn’t see a ‘me’.

Exactly. You're doing great. Keep LOOKing.

Traffic on the main road kept flowing, traffic lights worked, trees and grass were growing, legs kept moving this body, eyes moved around without any required direction

Yes. Did you see an orchestrator?

seemingly aligned with a thought of some type.

Did you SEE a thought aligned with movement? You SAW traffic lights, trees and grass with the eyes in your head; they are real. Did you SEE an orchestrator, a thought, a 'me' at all? Use your senses to check what is Really there.

I grew-up, and no assistance required in the process. There was no self guiding, no ‘I’ telling my body what to do, etc. It just happened. Requisite amounts of sleep, exercise, food, etc were utilized in the process; there was no ‘I’ to manage or direct any of it.

Yes indeed. So where/when/how did this "I" show up? Where/what is it at all? You write "I", I write "I"—what do you mean by "I"??

You're doing good work, Richard. Keep LOOKing. :-)
Love
Nona

[Richard511]

Hi Nona,

So, I have done a considerable amount of looking… I can say definitively that no orchestrator/do-er is seen. None. I can’t see a do-er/orchestrator; it is a concept and not real.

I took a walk as described earlier, no do-er. I look inside, and get confused. Even those who have seen past the illusion of self describe that they recognize thoughts. So, who is recognizing those thoughts? Does there have to be a ‘who’? Maybe not. Maybe the thoughts just are. I do not believe there is a do-er/orchestrator, but I don’t KNOW it.

I then look at my body. I see skin, hands, fingers, legs, etc. Absolutely no do-er/orchestrator; but meet resistance when I look at this body and think this isn’t ‘me’, just skin, hair, nails, and other assorted body parts. I somehow associate me with my body…

Many, many thanks.
Love,
Richard

[nonaparry]

Hi Richard!

So, I have done a considerable amount of looking

I see that! Good! Don't stop.

I can say definitively that no orchestrator/do-er is seen. None. I can’t see a do-er/orchestrator; it is a concept and not real.

Good!

I look inside, and get confused.

How do you "look inside"? With your eyes? Or with thought. Can a thought see?
How often do we say "I see" when we mean "I think" or "I understand mentally"? No wonder we get confused!

Even those who have seen past the illusion of self describe that they recognize thoughts. So, who is recognizing those thoughts?

Well yes. There are thoughts. And recognising thoughts happens. There's just no 'who' to recognise them, no 'who' they are happening to.

Does there have to be a ‘who’? Maybe not. Maybe the thoughts just are.

Exactly. The next time a thought is recognised, check if there is any 'Recogniser' that is needed for thought-recognition. Is there a minute Thought-Recogniser resident somewhere that notices thoughts—perhaps calls "Look out!! Incoming!!" Or do thoughts simply arise, get recognised, and depart?

I do not believe there is a do-er/orchestrator, but I don’t KNOW it.

No; and the question is not whether you know but whether you SEE there is no do-er/orchestrator. Knowing intellectually that there is no do-er/orchestrator is not going to liberate you; you will have to experience it directly, SEE beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no do-er/orchestrator in Reality.

I then look at my body. I see skin, hands, fingers, legs, etc. Absolutely no do-er/orchestrator; but meet resistance when I look at this body and think this isn’t ‘me’, just skin, hair, nails, and other assorted body parts. I somehow associate me with my body…

So is 'me' the body? Do this little exercise. Close your eyes; get very clear where 'me' is, and when you've got it, lift a hand and with a finger Point to the 'me'. Then open your eyes and look at what the finger is pointing to. What is it? What did finger point to?

Touch your leg. Touch it. Now the left arm, and the chin, now touch the right ear, and the nose.
Just follow through on this.
Now touch Richard.

Where is it? Where is Richard? In the body, outside the body, in thoughts?
Can you at least point to it with a finger?

Can you touch that which is looking through the eyes? If not, how do you know that there is something there at all?

Looking forward to your reply,
love
Nona

[Richard511]

Hi Nona! I have been working on the suggested exercises, and have an update:

So is 'me' the body? Do this little exercise. Close your eyes; get very clear where 'me' is, and when you've got it, lift a hand and with a finger Point to the 'me'. Then open your eyes and look at what the finger is pointing to. What is it? What did finger point to?

Touch your leg. Touch it. Now the left arm, and the chin, now touch the right ear, and the nose.
Just follow through on this.
Now touch Richard.

So, I closed my eyes and tried to point to 'me'. At first, it was not at all clear where 'me' might be. After some time, I realized that the body was relaxed, and that the head was the focal point. I then attempted to narrow down a specific location where 'me' might be and to point at it. As I focused on different areas of the head, and did not find 'me' anywhere. I did find this to be relaxing, and at some point really only felt energy/tingling sensation on the top of my head; kind of crown chakra area.

OK, then I tried the second recommended exercise of touching body parts and then touching 'Richard'. I have done this at least 5 or 6 times throughout the day. There is no Richard to touch. That's where I stop. By simply resting the hand that was touching the arm, ear, leg, etc.

I think I'm going to sleep on this and try the exercises again in the morning. I cannot express exactly why, but do have a sense that the exercises were beneficial.

Thank you Nona!
Love,
Richard