am i where i presume i am...or not

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Jigme
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am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:22 pm

Ilona suggested i post here
So, to be upfront from the go, i just want to say that i am under the presumption that i, or not i, had, what in buddhist terms was an awakening to stream entry event some 4 and half years ago, and the unfolding of the implications of seeing and understanding no self has been gradually unraveling the delusions of me- ness since then.
However at times the certainty of this event, that seemed to be quite profound, though also very funnily simple and non special and very ordinary, and lasted for 6 months, seems to have faded into a very much more everyday more acutely aware and sharp sensitivity to living, but with very few bells and whistles, which is somehow more reassuring and relevant to just being alive. But, and this is the tricky one, and the testing one, and does seem to cause thinking mind a bit of trepidation and anxiety, an i still seems at times to suspect maybe i am still deluded about that realization. and i very much need to see that if that is the case.
Though the unfolding of life has also very much changed how i am living and existing, and much of my so called neurosis has dropped off, (and it was quite strong and all consuming before that event as i am calling it), or those stories just drop off quickly when i just remember to question the me stories, as if awareness just looks at itself and goes, ooo yes, silly billy you are not there, are you, and its no problem again. But still i ask, an i asks....and this is what i/ awareness feels id like to expose, these very doubtful thoughts and ideas and views to scrutiny and get your feedback....even if it exposes i am not where i presume i am, somehow that's still a little frightening, so who is scared, a good question and one i often apply, yet fear is arising, a little at least. Also if i am where i presume a little confidence from others on the page of the stream may benefit.
any ideas where i , we could go with this?

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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby nonaparry » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:26 am

Hi Jigme! Are you willing to describe your expectations about being guided to clearly see there is no "I" to even ask?

If so, please do, and we will begin. I ask questions; you answer what I ask with 100% honesty. We both show up here at least once every day, even if just to say we can't work today.

Cheers
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Jigme
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:52 am

Hi Nona, yes that would be great, i am committed to 100 % honesty
start when you like
and thanks
Jigme

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Jigme
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:18 am

Hi Jigme! Are you willing to describe your expectations about being guided to clearly see there is no "I" to even ask?

If so, please do, and we will begin. I ask questions; you answer what I ask with 100% honesty. We both show up here at least once every day, even if just to say we can't work today.

Cheers
Nona

Hi again, so to answer your expectations question. Only that the I will be seen clearly as a false story, that the i is only ever re-inforcing the i story, its all a puff of smoke. I am willing and ready to undermine this tricky subtler sense of an I that is apparently claiming even this process of seeing through....i expect it to drop off as it has done at times, but with a more definate release.... but then again i am not too big on expectations these days...so lets haveit and see where we go. thanx
jigme

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nonaparry
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby nonaparry » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:56 am

Great! Tell me as much as possible about this "I" that keeps cropping up. When and where does it arise? What is your response to it? Does it have a message for you? If so, what is it?
What about seeing the "I" is an illusion is confusing for you?

Thanks for your detailed descriptions!!
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:04 pm

Great! Tell me as much as possible about this "I" that keeps cropping up. When and where does it arise? What is your response to it? Does it have a message for you? If so, what is it?
What about seeing the "I" is an illusion is confusing for you?

Thanks for your detailed descriptions!!
love
Nona
so a long ramble to your questions....
so i was just sitting quietly in the garden, closed my eyes as its easier with just sounds, and then i notice a sound, bird, and immediately theres the label bird, and then another sound, wood cracking, distant, direction to left, mind thoughts working it all out, so the event happens and immediately a response by thoughts and images. fine, thats genuine experience then a making sense of it, the expression of a human being. but with the cracking wood theres anxiety too, nervous, a 'whats that, robbers intruders threat' etc, so ok normal also ( useful at times even).....but theres a me in there, a me is threatened, and then here's the i story, 'i should be careful, what if,' and the imaginations off into a story. so where is this i , i say to myself, who is scared, why???. emm so then i try again...just looking just listening, just being....sitting again and relaxing the mind down, but theres curious too, and theres an up tightness in the jaw, and realise im thinking it out, questions become thinking about what i am looking for, a result and an answer, i am looking for a letting go.....so i got lost in the i game gain, just relax...see and hear and feel body sensations , wind on skin, smells etc, and the thoughts whirring on. so i ask tentaively, whats always background, i know the answer is awareness, i have done this one technique lots and it works at times to realese me into Awareness, but now this time i notice, well i know it( in thoughts), but I am not Knowing it. At times theres just been Awarness being, now though its only looking for awareness. so what am i trying to express, a realistaion that there is a frustarted i story saying to itslef i am not getting this, and is this confusion is also apparently keeping me/i it from relaxing as just Aware being
.....my response to the I, well tricky, the i gets frustrated with the i that crops up, but the i also knows from interpreted past experience that that is absurd, and all that is just i story, round and round. Aware being mind...so to speak just is background, and has in past just laughed at teh absurdity. today, is silently quietly allowing some sort of noticing, or else id not be here writing this out, but somehow its still murky and a little claustrophobic this i, i am , me me, stuff, and not just seen as dust and cloud. who gets frustrated i asked, only me i answer....awareness stays quiet but present, good god, even the delusion of i knows the answer, that its all absurd...but still it goes on....i suppose i hope for it to end, it wont, cant, never ever was....
.....its message, can only be see how subtle i am and how i am clinging, more looking needed. a message from Awareness through i language i suppose, be alert mate be alert its tricky.
.......whats confusing is for the i itself, wants to comprehend, but doesn't really, gets in way of just being alive, as if im in the fog a lot of time, have been out of the fog, and know what its like, know the fog for what it is, yet still get fogged up and worried i will not get out again,as if im playing a t santa and at times believe the whole tail, until i realise im only playing santa, feels like job only half done.....i know i am speaking from thought bound mind, yet its defused with Awareness and awareness is guiding the words so that i ask the questions to drop the fantasy....oh ...i suppose how else can it be..... after all thoughts words labels are great facilities for communication, but still get caught up in a me me me story out of that,

enough over to you
thanks Nona
all my best
Jigme

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nonaparry
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby nonaparry » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:02 pm

So let me make sure I have this clear: what you want is daily life without mind, without thoughts, without I-language? Do you expect "thought bound mind" to drop from this guiding?
whats confusing is for the i itself, wants to comprehend, but doesn't really, gets in way of just being alive
What would "just being alive" look like if it were happening as you desire?

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Jigme
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:02 pm

So let me make sure I have this clear: what you want is daily life without mind, without thoughts, without I-language? Do you expect "thought bound mind" to drop from this guiding?
whats confusing is for the i itself, wants to comprehend, but doesn't really, gets in way of just being alive
What would "just being alive" look like if it were happening as you desire?

love
Nona
Hi Nona, emmm
no i don't want or expect thought mind to be gone, maybe i confused you with my rambles,i suppose what i feel needs to happen more, so to speak, is for the Awareness that i know is constantly present in all experience, the ground, to be recognised, valued more often than the confused thought mind. the thinking is all ok, its the miss apprehension of this that causes a me to feel it exists, when it doesn't, but theres still a trapping into that story that happens, more often than just being. It seems that there is a clearer witnessing of living going on, and has been there for over five years now, that is very different from my more scared and depressed view prior to that, now life is brighter, clearer, sharper, and generally more creative, even in midst of what could be seen as problems, but there is still some inkling of an attachment to an idea of a me.
....thought bound mind, ...no i dont expect it to drop, it is useful, plays its part, but the binding can come, its a binding of an invisible, non existent rope, that ties me in knots of self existence story still at times, a rope that doesn't exist yet if believed can still act like a rope. So also what i expect is that if that belief can be allowed to drop away more and more life will be freed up more and more. i've seen its not a real rope, not just intellectually, though whether fully enough i am not sure, i know its not even a rope pretending to be a snake, i have seen it isnt existent, and is only in imagination, yet it feels to me, possibly, like this is not quite enough to let its constraints fall away, but maybe that will come in time. I am not sure if i am just in an unfolding of the implications of something that has been seen into life, or whether i am still deluded and clouded, and need a nudge.

as to living life.... would be as it is right now, in every way, no different, just the knotty belief in an I dropped away, and the energy put into that, the resistance from life, would be free to flow as it is, though without dreaming. No difference, yet all the difference in the world. the play will play out, but there will be more fun in playing my bit character part, no need to think im the leading man, or the man with the shitty part, just play up and play on, through life and into the fading of life, living. but not a dream life, nothing will change, i have it all....but if I have/want it then i dont have it. Life is just life. When i have had a deeper clearer experience of this it feels like life is living out through me, god is seeing through my eyes, seeing itself, awareness is living in through me out into itself...so to speak, uniquely reflected/refracted through this being here. When this is not so clear, the fog can settle, but i have no doubt about what was understood, just a suspicion i am creating the fog in some tricky way.
does that help clarify, or muddy?
ian thanks again for your attentive warm questions

ps...re reading it all again.... somehow there's a sense that i do want something to be certain way, life maybe, this awakening maybe, but maybe also its a tricky thought mind game going on, trying to recreate a me being

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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:30 am

Hi Nona,
good day to you, its 8 am here, so vening for you i suspect.
any way a quick add on from last post.
sitting in meditation before bed last night what came to me was
statements.... such as.... i am frsutrated, i am hungry, i am sad, my foot itches, why do i feel lonely, what will life bring me etc etc
and then , and what are the only parts of these statements that are interlopers and not needed, i am, my, me...any reference to a personal self.... this then lent itself to feeling a more spacious, relaxed, curious awareness of what just is going on , right now.....
Thats
all
Jigme
x

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nonaparry
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby nonaparry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:11 am

somehow there's a sense that i do want something to be certain way
Yes; that's what is being seen here. You are good at checking your thinking and your feelings; check to discover just what it is that you want—what is that certain way that you want something to be?

Tell me about the Awareness not being recognised. HOW do you want/need the awareness to be recognised? What would that look like?
i've seen its not a real rope, not just intellectually, though whether fully enough i am not sure, i know its not even a rope pretending to be a snake, i have seen it isnt existent, and is only in imagination, yet it feels to me, possibly, like this is not quite enough to let its constraints fall away
Are you saying there are Real constraints from a fantasy rope? Really? It isn't even existent and yet it's constraining? LOOK. Where is the constraint if the rope is merely an image in thought?
When i have had a deeper clearer experience of this it feels like life is living out through me, god is seeing through my eyes, seeing itself, awareness is living in through me out into itself...so to speak, uniquely reflected/refracted through this being here. When this is not so clear, the fog can settle, but i have no doubt about what was understood, just a suspicion i am creating the fog in some tricky way.
Sweetheart, is it that you don't want to be human? You don't want to have conditioned responses at all ever??
Consider this. When I saw through illusion of self at age 59.5 I had nearly 60 years of conditioned thinking and behaviours that made up my experience. Conditioning is like the papier-maché covering a balloon; when the papier-maché (conditioning) has dried, and the balloon (self) is popped and removed, the crust of conditioning remains. For you younger folk, there's less to work through; for us oldsters there's more. Not a big deal.
Take each thought that This moment should be different from the way it is and investigate it. I can recommend a superb tool for seeing through the beliefs that This moment NOW should be different.

Conditioning does NOT equal a me. It is merely habitual ways of responding based on a false belief that there was a separate self. Now you know there is no separate self, but the habitual responses continue. And so? That's the way of it. Until the habitual ways of being are no longer habitual, there will be a continuity of Selfing. No biggie. Just take each example and Check it! Is it true? Don't forget that while the thoughts are real, the Content of a thought is an image—imagined!

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:10 am

Hi Nona,
just to let you know, i am not that young really, nearly 47...so have my layers to work out of the system.
yes i see all your great points, and that helps. i just somehow need reminding that the crusts of old life habits remain and will fall as they will at the time they must....i realised this morning when sitting in meditation, that a clinging to its not all alright as it is is still quite a default setting for thinking imagining...thats a particularly well oiled and oft repeated habitual response to life, so not surprising its playing out quite often and in subtle forms.
thank you , i like your pointing out that the contents of thoughts is imagined not real....i will explore this moment now should be different more precisely....thanks again

as to how do i want awareness to be recognised, i will pose that question as well, that seems important too.
love
Jigme

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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby nonaparry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:30 pm

Excellent! I look forward to your responses!!
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Jigme
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:51 pm

Hi Nona, so here goes,
mulling and letting that great tool of yours,,,
So i sit looking out my window,always a great reflection aid for me....
i hear the tweets of the martins outside my window.... immediately labeled martin, then it begins, the my thoughts, my friends the martins, when will you leave me for Africa, i will miss you and on, and with emotions too. no problem, but then i ask...'and so what came first the thought or the sense of me'.... well the thought originally i.e noise, sound, ...bird, martin, then the me stuff. Ok so perhaps the me thoughts are just thoughts too, and so perhaps no more weight to be placed on me thoughts than that of all thoughts. But i notice there's another thought that says 'oh but me thoughts are more meaningful,' ok hold that thought, and re-aply the tool Nona has offered.
ok and heres another .....so i hear the bloke i share a community house with come in, and i feel the anger, pain, frustration fear etc, that the current ongoing conflict we have with each other....so what came first, the thought the label of him, and then all the emotional thoughts come flooding in, am i prepared to consider they are just thoughts and not evidence of a me that is justified in being defended and protected and in the right. Can i say that i or me created those thoughts, well apparently not ...check it out! The thoughts came up in response to teh original thoughts, quickly yes, but in that order, but a me so full of thoughts says to itself i am me and i am.
so a little more convinced, but still a need to apply and apply again, especially to more emotive thoughts, where it seems theres a stronger me falsifying going on. also baring in mind that conditioning and those old habits are ok to be doing the stuff they do, just watch out for the me within them and have a look.

so i will keep going, thanks for this one, it feels very significant, and i feel progress is taking place somewhere in here/out there mind things.....

i hope your day has been useful, it has for me, so thanks again.

Love
Jigme...or as generally known Ian...though whats in a name aye.
x

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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby nonaparry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:09 pm

Here is the best tool I know for dealing with thoughts that bother us: The Work of Byron Katie. This tool, and all the resources needed to use it, are available for free at http://www.thework.com

I notice you haven't answered my questions yet.
Everyone's story is just a story; just a collection of thoughts that are believed in the moment. They are not True.

Please answer my questions:
what it is that you want—what is that certain way that you want something to be?
HOW do you want/need the awareness to be recognised? What would that look like?
Where is the constraint if the rope is merely an image in thought?
is it that you don't want to be human? You don't want to have conditioned responses at all ever??
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Jigme
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Re: am i where i presume i am...or not

Postby Jigme » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:03 pm

Here is the best tool I know for dealing with thoughts that bother us: The Work of Byron Katie. This tool, and all the resources needed to use it, are available for free at http://www.thework.com

I notice you haven't answered my questions yet.
Everyone's story is just a story; just a collection of thoughts that are believed in the moment. They are not True.

Please answer my questions:
what it is that you want—what is that certain way that you want something to be?
HOW do you want/need the awareness to be recognised? What would that look like?
Where is the constraint if the rope is merely an image in thought?
is it that you don't want to be human? You don't want to have conditioned responses at all ever??
love
Nona

Hi i am a little confused, i thought you,d already given me something to work with ie
you said....Conditioning does NOT equal a me. It is merely habitual ways of responding based on a false belief that there was a separate self. Now you know there is no separate self, but the habitual responses continue. And so? That's the way of it. Until the habitual ways of being are no longer habitual, there will be a continuity of Selfing. No biggie. Just take each example and Check it! Is it true? Don't forget that while the thoughts are real, the Content of a thought is an image—imagined!

and i was applying that and looking at my thoughts of an i in what was arising, and trying to ask that maybe there is no evidence of an i, and that seems to be working on me.....but oh i got that angle wrong and that's not what you meant...i have looked at some Byron Katie stuff, some time ago, and its been useful and i may look again, however i feel i am looking at a different angle here...emm but i will consider this suggestion...i feel a bit befuddled as we seem to have got mixed messages here....but i will plough on, so as to your questions,
what it is that you want—what is that certain way that you want something to be?
I suppose i want to be freed up form this sense of I, or at least less caught in its belief, more often than at present....from your balloon analogy, which i like, i suppose i'd like to be understanding that its just the crust of habitual conception more often than not. I am a lot less caught than i was...but still get caught... thats ok as you suggest, but theres caught and theres caught.
HOW do you want/need the awareness to be recognised? What would that look like?[/quote... as above, i would be seeing thoughts for what they are more quickly and freely, it wouldnt look like anything particular, more just that liberated sense of not being caught...i dont expect my life to change, just my preconseptions of a me to fall off more quickly. The implications of this liberation from self will unfold i suspect, as they have been doing to some extent over the last few years.
Where is the constraint if the rope is merely an image in thought?
...yes good point, and thats what i need to ask dont i.....if ive seen through selfing...enough...then i shouldnt be fooled by that rope, yet fooling happens sometimes, especially when deeper long held beliefs are involved, but is that evidence of a me, first cause is a thought, the effect is a sense of me, a thought of me....not vice versa
is it that you don't want to be human? You don't want to have conditioned responses at all ever??
...well thats a long held habit there you spotted, not wanting to be human/born....but i understand what your getting at...no i dont expect to not be a human being, far from it, if anything has dropped away with my comprehension its the search for an idiolised human being, that is tosh, its life thats here as it is, warts and all....


Nona, I wonder if i can refer back to my original discussion topic, and reason i came to this forum.... as i feel you may not be being taken it into consideration....i do feel i have had some seeing through of self view, and it has significantly improved my life and assumptions about life, perhaps this does not come over in my answers and questions, perhaps i may sound a little naive and emotive, confused, perhaps not? please say so if thats the case.... i have come to a point where my exploration of mind and self, and awareness, and especially the storys that erupt and get believed, needs to be further looked at, some thing, call it awareness maybe, has requested i ask others for verification, (only by guiding me here) and help, and possible tweaks etc...it seems to be in the area of feeling that my habits are my habits, that i create in order to protect a me, or defend a me, or promote a me. ...But what could be seen, more deeply or clearly is perhaps that really, really, there is no me at all, and never has been, me is a thought and is caused by other thoughts and causes yet more thoughts etc, but at root no me. So somehow i want to look deeper. Your previous post seemed to suggest areas i could really explore, i have been exploring this afternoon with your post in mind, and have felt something cracking, but now i find you were expecting something else from me, so im left a little flumuxed, a little exposed, yet also inspired as i have come to a newer fresher perspective and possible exploration.....which may be why i came here after all, and why we posted together.

I hope this clarifys and helps, and can go some way to getting us on the same track again
all the best
Jigme


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