Please guide me

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Demian
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Please guide me

Postby Demian » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:12 am

Hello,

I have been practicing meditation for 10 years, i started with vipassana tradition and the zen. I participated a number of retreats, including a nine months retreat in a monastery.

The practice helped to become more balanced, however the illusion of self is still there.

I would like to continue the journey with your guidance.

Thank you in advance!

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Eloratea
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Eloratea » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:36 am

Hello Demian,

Maybe we can start with your expectations and wishes from this.
Have you read some threads; Made yourself familiar with rules?

Than my first question would be, when you say the illusion of self is still there, what is exactly there?
Why do you call it illusion?

Best regards.

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Demian
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Demian » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:41 am

Hello Eloratea,

Thanks for contacting me. I'm more or less aware with the rules. I read some chapter of Ilona's book.

My expectations are to be able to be fully present, and react from that place skillfully, to stop the inner talk, to be more compassionate, a "better" person. Even if I know intellectually that these are desires of the ego.

Illusion is a label. I mean, there is a feeling of self, feeling of control, even sometimes in meditation everything is clear, huge, thinking fades, looses its power etc.. I mean, when i focusing inward, slowly it looses its grip. But in every day, usually this is just an intelectual understanding. I somehow feel that there is an I, who is clever, nice, honest etc, who makes decision, to whom others relates in certain ways. I somehow know however, that this I is not a constant entity, not real in this sense. My meditation experience also pointing to this.

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Re: Please guide me

Postby Eloratea » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:41 pm

I'm more or less aware with the rules.
Basic requirements are just absolute honesty, answering from direct experience and regular posting.

Please, leave for now all the expectations as they are not relevant especially any betterment of the person. Inner talk is usually reduced and more quickly seen through, but also usually there isn't not all of a sudden complete presence without ever being „lost“ in thoughts.
Anyway, the best start is to just have innocent and fresh look at things as they already are.
I mean, there is a feeling of self,
Could you describe the feeling of self? Locate it in the body?
And how do you know it is a feeling of self? How does it feel if you don't label it as a sense of self?
I somehow feel that there is an I, who is clever, nice, honest etc, who makes decision, to whom others relates in certain ways.
Actually that feeling is a product of belief that there is a separate I. If you wouldn't believe in it, the experience would feel completely different.
I somehow know however, that this I is not a constant entity
What if „I“ is not entity at all. Just a thought, ordinary thought as any other.
Have some good look on this, without thinking about it.
How does this feel?

Best wishes.

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Demian
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Demian » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:39 am

"Could you describe the feeling of self? Locate it in the body?"

It is a kind of background feeling, located mainly in the head. It is connected the "me" or "I" thinking.. It is like somebody living in this body. As I look for it it seems that there is a thinking involved, and the feeling is subtle, it is pointing to this background location.Hard to describe the feeling, just a subtle feeling that it is something there.

"And how do you know it is a feeling of self? How does it feel if you don't label it as a sense of self?"

I know it through the mental chat. During the chat there is a feeling/thinking, that it is me, I evaluate, decide, it happens to me.. etc. If I do not label it is a subtle chatting, a kind of identification continuously present.

"What if „I“ is not entity at all. Just a thought, ordinary thought as any other.
Have some good look on this, without thinking about it.
How does this feel?"

It feels as emptiness opens. If I do not identify with myself, then there is not much to do.
Its a kind of frightening feelings also. Fearing from loss.

Looking inside/investigation also involves some kind of concentration/awareness. The self thinking emerges and then there is an awareness, sometimes a kind of negation/cutting of this subtle thinking. Then sensations becomes stronger (hearing, seeing).

Best wishes.

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Re: Please guide me

Postby Eloratea » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:16 am

Hi Demian,
"Could you describe the feeling of self? Locate it in the body?"
It is a kind of background feeling, located mainly in the head. It is connected the "me" or "I" thinking.. It is like somebody living in this body. As I look for it it seems that there is a thinking involved, and the feeling is subtle, it is pointing to this background location.Hard to describe the feeling, just a subtle feeling that it is something there.
Is it like awareness looking through your eyes, but being also present when eyes are closed?
Is it personal, before the thoughts come in?
"And how do you know it is a feeling of self? How does it feel if you don't label it as a sense of self?"
I know it through the mental chat. During the chat there is a feeling/thinking, that it is me, I evaluate, decide, it happens to me.. etc. If I do not label it is a subtle chatting, a kind of identification continuously present.
So, you actually see that thoughts make it feel personal. Thoughts are flowing, there is no control over them, but there is possibility not to believe in them. Look is there a „you“ behind this thought, as there is body behind the thought „body“?
Here right now, is there you having the experience, or it is just experience?
"What if „I“ is not entity at all. Just a thought, ordinary thought as any other.
Have some good look on this, without thinking about it.
How does this feel?"
It feels as emptiness opens. If I do not identify with myself, then there is not much to do.
Good. Have a deeper look on this. There is no you to identify to yourself, neither it would make sense. There is identification or not with some part of the experience. With bunch of thoughts and feelings. Thoughts connect moment to moment experience into a story of you. Thus making of this always newly arising aliveness fixed story. Which is actually not even that fixed. Memories are always recalled little bit differently depending on current circumstances in which remembering arises. Can you see that?

And yes, there is not much job for „I“, as it never was, apart from making noise. Life unfolds as it always did, just in greater silence when this is seen through.
Its a kind of frightening feelings also. Fearing from loss.
Ok, this may notice you have looked deeply exciting the emotions. It is energy movement protecting discovering of long held beliefs. It is good, feel it and face it. Is there anything there that needs protection really?
Is there anything to be lost except the belief that is no longer needed. Feel the feelings that arise, so they can leave.
Looking inside/investigation also involves some kind of concentration/awareness. The self thinking emerges and then there is an awareness, sometimes a kind of negation/cutting of this subtle thinking. Then sensations becomes stronger (hearing, seeing).
It is like switching more and more to the mode of awareness and direct perception.
Keep looking innocently without expectations and honestly. Seeing this fact of life without gap between the subject and object is simple and obvious despite the complex appearances of awareness and many nuances that still may unfold later in experience.

Best regards.

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Demian
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Demian » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:00 pm

Dear Eloratea,

"Is it like awareness looking through your eyes, but being also present when eyes are closed?
Is it personal, before the thoughts come in?"

No, it is more connected with feeling, it is personal. Maybe there is some memory also present, "its me" kind of memory, but this is subtle/it is in the background.

"So, you actually see that thoughts make it feel personal. Thoughts are flowing, there is no control over them, but there is possibility not to believe in them. Look is there a „you“ behind this thought, as there is body behind the thought „body“?
Here right now, is there you having the experience, or it is just experience?"

Right here and know, there is just experience, but it is oscillating, usually there is a feeling of self.
Since intellectualism were regarded high in my family, there is a strong identification with thoughts, that is a hard part for me, even it looses its grip in the last years.
If I start to see at the thought, the identification starts to disappear, it is a fairly fast process nowdays, but there is little stress/less distraction in my life, since I'm at home recovering after an illness.

"Good. Have a deeper look on this. There is no you to identify to yourself, neither it would make sense. There is identification or not with some part of the experience. With bunch of thoughts and feelings. Thoughts connect moment to moment experience into a story of you. Thus making of this always newly arising aliveness fixed story. Which is actually not even that fixed. Memories are always recalled little bit differently depending on current circumstances in which remembering arises. Can you see that?"

These seems really simple. Fighting reality with thoughts continuously. Interpretations all around. But they are only chasing themselves.
There is a feeling of boredom, if I look deeper. The only task is to see things as they are, endlessly? It requires effort/awareness know, what if that becomes effortless, a kind of conditioned process? What remains then?

"Ok, this may notice you have looked deeply exciting the emotions. It is energy movement protecting discovering of long held beliefs. It is good, feel it and face it. Is there anything there that needs protection really?"

There is a fear that this will lead to a resignation, negation. From where comes the liveliness, freshness, and compassion or energy? I can feel some resistance in my stomach. Am I stucked in the emptiness/stillness, when clearer moments arising?

Best Wishes

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Re: Please guide me

Postby Eloratea » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:44 pm

Right here and know, there is just experience, but it is oscillating, usually there is a feeling of self.
Right now is all that is. Rest are thoughts appearing also right now.
What I am pointing you is to look at that you call sense of self and self and see it for what it is. But you need to do it.
Otherwise it will always stay some vague feeling of being „you“ separate, stuck somewhere in life.
Since intellectualism were regarded high in my family, there is a strong identification with thoughts, that is a hard part for me, even it looses its grip in the last years.
I don't think bad about intellectualism, but what is usually regarded as intellectualism is just slavery to the thoughts.
Direct experiencing, focusing on pure sensation, feeling the feelings and meditation can help balance the experience and stop believing unconditionally in thoughts.
If I start to see at the thought, the identification starts to disappear, it is a fairly fast process nowdays, but there is little stress/less distraction in my life, since I'm at home recovering after an illness.
Good, why not use this time to look through the illusion of thoughts. And I hope your recovery is going well.
Maybe start with thought "I". How this huge belief develops through life til this very moment.
"Good. Have a deeper look on this. There is no you to identify to yourself, neither it would make sense. There is identification or not with some part of the experience. With bunch of thoughts and feelings. Thoughts connect moment to moment experience into a story of you. Thus making of this always newly arising aliveness fixed story. Which is actually not even that fixed. Memories are always recalled little bit differently depending on current circumstances in which remembering arises. Can you see that?"

These seems really simple. Fighting reality with thoughts continuously. Interpretations all around. But they are only chasing themselves.
You see it intellectually. Do you experience it actually? maybe need some time for the deeper realisation.
There is a feeling of boredom, if I look deeper. The only task is to see things as they are, endlessly? It requires effort/awareness know, what if that becomes effortless, a kind of conditioned process? What remains then?
This part comes from thinking, not looking, not being aware. There are no such questions in presence and awareness. There is no separate manager of life who needs to manage what's next.
There is a fear that this will lead to a resignation, negation. From where comes the liveliness, freshness, and compassion or energy? I can feel some resistance in my stomach. Am I stuck in the emptiness/stillness, when clearer moments arising?
This leads to the kind of another level of the life experience. Without any special changes in the life story. It certainly doesn't lead to some kind of the zombie state. To proceed with this you just need genuine interest in seeing things more clearly, or in more free way of living.
All those hesitations and fears are just mechanisms of keeping the current status and preventing liberation. But truth is already her behind the resistance.
Feel the resistance, ask it why it is here?

Best wishes.

p.s. if you would like to use qute function, here are instructions:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

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Demian
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Demian » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:04 pm

Dear Eloratea,

When I look for the I, it is just some undefined feeling, some thinking. Then it starts to disappear. As I loook for it, I can feel my body, my chest, hands. Then a thoughts comes, "you should look deeper" etc., then a kind of white noise appears, and then a flowing feeling from up (head) to down. It is then starting to become a kind of meditation, objects appears in the awareness an then goes. Only rare and subtle identifications with me.

Best Regards

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Eloratea
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Eloratea » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:03 pm

Only rare and subtle identifications with me.
Identification with what exactly?
Is there you?

:)

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Demian
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Demian » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:25 am

Good Morning Eloratea,

:)

During sitting this morning, the same.. thought comes and goes.. if concentration weakens, there are more identification with them. I ask where these thoughts comes, then disappears.

Have a nice day

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Eloratea
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Eloratea » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:31 am

Good morning,

Are you thinking your thoughts? Or thought just come and go, one by one?

When identification happens what exactly happens?
Have a deep, relaxed look in your actual experience.

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Demian
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Demian » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:11 pm

Are you thinking your thoughts? Or thought just come and go, one by one?
right know not much thinking, they just come and go
When identification happens what exactly happens?
the thinking flavored with senses (feeling of some parts of the body), and the narrative is filled/centered on I, ME
It happens usually very fast, unnoticed. When noticed, depending on the situation, more direct seeing is possible

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Eloratea
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Eloratea » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:49 pm

right know not much thinking, they just come and go
Is there ever you thinking thoughts, or they always just come and go? Just look.

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Demian
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Re: Please guide me

Postby Demian » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:52 am

Is there ever you thinking thoughts, or they always just come and go? Just look.
They are just coming and going


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