Space for Ronin7

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SeeEye
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Space for Ronin7

Postby SeeEye » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:48 am

Hello, R7,

The basic format is guides ask you questions, you answer honestly as to what comes up. Best to be committed to post once a day.

Please tell me a little about what you think your "self" is...what your experience of "I" is. Also, what your expectations of liberation are.

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:58 am

Hello, R7,

Please tell me a little about what you think your "self" is...what your experience of "I" is. Also, what your expectations of liberation are.
A little about what I think my "self" is:

My self is this identity, of self. Composing of thoughts, emotions, feelings, ideas, persona.


My experience of "I":
What comes to mind, is, the "I am". The sense of self. I am, I do, I eat, I think, I work, I sleep.

Expectations of liberation:
Since I seem to have been on this quest of something I can't really put into words. This urge to figure it out, to get liberated from some thing. To get an answer to a question I don't have words for.
For nearly 20 years I've had my nose in books, collecting knowledge and tools. But I feel like I'm continually collecting all this stuff.

There was something I read in the Enlightening App for this forum that resonated.
"You are not your thoughts." Author Antero Alli said something very similar and I think it was "You are not your emotions."

As of reading through the app and through this forum, there have been chords struck, so to speak. Something hit. I can't explain it quite yet but something hit.

But I have fear- fear of becoming an unmotivated zombie. Fear of a death of something. Fear of coming to a truth, finally coming to a truth. An empty, silent, quiet, truth.

Also, doubt. Could this be just more stuff? Am I just collecting more stuff?

I've been trying to undo and deprogram the software that has been running around in my head for years... And now there is no need to undo? There really is no program or software? I'm not being skeptical but almost a "what the fuck?" Everything up until now or when I reach this sense of enlightenment, everything that I've tried to learn and work on is all for nothing?

I'm being honest.

Along with current self enhancing work. I've become more aware, more cognizant of the moment. More sounds to hear, movement, sights, color. Today I was taking my usual walking meditation break at work, walking the skywalk and I noticed the way the light shined down on the tile and the way it reflected up and moved with the stride of my walk. I walked that section of skywalk for years and never noticed it.

Sorry to ramble on. This year has been a big year of change for me.

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SeeEye
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby SeeEye » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:31 pm

I've been trying to undo and deprogram the software that has been running around in my head for years... And now there is no need to undo? There really is no program or software? I'm not being skeptical but almost a "what the fuck?" Everything up until now or when I reach this sense of enlightenment, everything that I've tried to learn and work on is all for nothing?
There is software, there is reprogramming, and it's not or nothing. It also is not "knowing" what you are, or seeing what you are working to see.

Knowledge remains, memory remains, patterned robotic responses remain. The work you have done will continue o serve you well. It's just that the reality of "YOU" is not there in reality.

If you are not your emotions, and not your thoughts, what are "you"??

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:39 am

I've been trying to undo and deprogram the software that has been running around in my head

Knowledge remains, memory remains, patterned robotic responses remain. The work you have done will continue o serve you well. It's just that the reality of "YOU" is not there in reality.

If you are not your emotions, and not your thoughts, what are "you"??
What "i" "am"....

I honestly don't know what I am. What I thought I was, was a composition of thoughts and feelings.
After a few years of shedding those parts of bullshit and useless ideas of what I am, I'm not sure.

I feel some anxiety of sorts when it comes to what I really am. The observer? I have been doing work of the observer. Noticing those thoughts and feelings that I thought make up me. There's this silent observer there/here. It's been there for a while. I sense it from time to time when I'm cognizant of working with it or on it.
Like it's a separate self. Something else. Watching me, walking with me. Yet it's a part of me. It has no words, feelings, or thoughts, it just seems "there". Silently, there.

The fears I have discussed are feelings of losing something, abandonment. Like, there are things that I know I should abandon and other things I don't want to abandon such as the things I've learned since really digging in and working on myself. Such as, NLP, the observer work, and self enhancement. IF there are parts of those items that should be shed, then I ask myself; which parts?

There is an underlying fear of "godammit, here we go again! Just when I think I'm moving to a more clear direction, up pops a new mode of thought or idea and the rest is all shit." That I know is bullshit in a sense but the feeling of everything thus far was all for none and it's time again to switch views and start another new path."

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:03 am

Except from the app/book.
While reading last night.
Perhaps the observer and the experience are one? Not me and the experience but that observer in the experience I feel every now and then, that is really me?


"You and your experience are one not two.

There is no you living a life. There is life as you experience it and that is you."

That excerpt hit hard.

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SeeEye
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby SeeEye » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:06 pm

Good, look into this.
I honestly don't know what I am. What I thought I was, was a composition of thoughts and feelings.
After a few years of shedding those parts of bullshit and useless ideas of what I am, I'm not sure.
You think you are a composition of thoughts and feelings. Are thoughts and feeling a static composition, or a linear fluid process or happening?

Just look at it happening, this pattern. Thought says "I am a composition", memory of things happens, old images and scenes and some feelings, and then again thought says "see, here I am" .....AS IF that last thought is the final word on yourself, but it is just another thought in a line of thoughts.

Take any activity and watch this. Be as aware and present as you can. Activity is happening, showering for example. You can note and label what is happening....water on body, seeing shower curtain, water on body, splashing sound, bubbles in the drain. But....isn't this labeling taking place a moment after experience experiences? Then, you get lost in thought, and shower is still showering without a thought called "I" to label itself and all other experiences, and no "I" was present to claim ownership for a while.

Yes, there is no "self" living life. Awareness is always there. It 'may' be accurate to say "I" am awareness, but until you see that there is no "I" it may be very misleading.

NLP, driving a car, cooking a burger are knowledge that remain. Who inside there is whining about losing this?

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:48 am


You think you are a composition of thoughts and feelings. Are thoughts and feeling a static composition, or a linear fluid process or happening?
Thoughts seem to be happening.

Just look at it happening, this pattern. Thought says "I am a composition", memory of things happens, old images and scenes and some feelings, and then again thought says "see, here I am" .....AS IF that last thought is the final word on yourself, but it is just another thought in a line of thoughts.
Thoughts are always there. But I am not my thoughts. My thoughts are not me. They are thoughts, just that. "I" am not a composition of thoughts. I am not even an I. Not easy to grasp, yet. I do not sit here and type this. The body sits here and types this. I control the body that sits here and types this. The observer sits here and types this? I observe the typer. I. There it is again. I.

NLP, driving a car, cooking a burger are knowledge that remain. Who inside there is whining about losing this?
The ego maybe? Whining about the fear of losing it.

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SeeEye
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby SeeEye » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:29 pm

So try this real quick.

Right now, raise up your right arm.

-------------



Did arm go up?

Did "you" make the arm go up, or did it go up before "you" started talking about it?

Is it possible that the organism can have thoughts and use them, that it can process data and context through the senses and act in it's environment.....without the thought that comes is and says "I did this" "I did that"?

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:40 pm

So try this real quick.

Right now, raise up your right arm.

-------------



Did arm go up?

Did "you" make the arm go up, or did it go up before "you" started talking about it?

Is it possible that the organism can have thoughts and use them, that it can process data and context through the senses and act in it's environment.....without the thought that comes is and says "I did this" "I did that"?
My arm went up. The brain sent a message through the CNS and instruct the muscles and such accordingly.

Yes, I think it is possible the organism can have thoughts and use them. I don't "talk" in my mind to move my arm up, it just goes up without a "verbal" command.

Like Audra, I understand this concept, and throughout time during meditations or contemplations, there have been "moments" of this non-thought, non-self, and empty feeling, like a void of some kind. Hard to put into words. Those moments are fleeting though.

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:40 pm

I've been contemplating "no I" or "no me" for many hours over the past week.
There's a few emotions/thoughts that arise commonly.
Fear. Anxiety. Uncertainty.
There seems to be fear and anxiety. A fear of losing something. Is my ego, or meme-identity, or something trying to fight back to stay alive? There's nothing to lose, so why the fear and anxiety?

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SeeEye
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby SeeEye » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:09 pm

Good to contemplate, keep working it.
Like Audra, I understand this concept, and throughout time during meditations or contemplations, there have been "moments" of this non-thought, non-self, and empty feeling, like a void of some kind. Hard to put into words. Those moments are fleeting though.
You don't want to look for a state, you just want to see it clearly and recognize it. States come and go, the knowing stays.
There seems to be fear and anxiety. A fear of losing something. Is my ego, or meme-identity, or something trying to fight back to stay alive? There's nothing to lose, so why the fear and anxiety?
It is unknown, and this type of thing has a lot of buildup.

I can tell you that I didn't lose anything, but you will have to know this for yourself.
I've been contemplating "no I" or "no me" for many hours over the past week.
You are not your thoughts, not your feelings. If you can observe it, it's not it. When you have a thought that says..."oh, there is this feeling, maybe it means I will die" Is that not just another thought?

Watch this contemplating. You have an awareness that seems to come from a void, silence. Awareness is there regardless of thinking, talking, thinking about talking, feeling, talking about feeling. In-between all of that, there is a silence, a space with just awareness.

A silence, a space with just awareness.

Then some thought that says "I this, I that, I feel, I think...."

Is this your experience?

If so, then what does that "I" in the sentence above really point to in reality?

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:25 am


You are not your thoughts, not your feelings. If you can observe it, it's not it. When you have a thought that says..."oh, there is this feeling, maybe it means I will die" Is that not just another thought?

Watch this contemplating. You have an awareness that seems to come from a void, silence. Awareness is there regardless of thinking, talking, thinking about talking, feeling, talking about feeling. In-between all of that, there is a silence, a space with just awareness.

A silence, a space with just awareness.

Then some thought that says "I this, I that, I feel, I think...."

Is this your experience?[/end]

The experience seems to be just that, experience.

The experience seems not to be "I this, I that, I feel, I think..."
If so, then what does that "I" in the sentence above really point to in reality?
[/end]
In reality? I'm unable to point it specifically anywhere in reality. If any"where" it seems to point inward, inside. Then beyond that, behind that. I don't know. A silent void. Powerful (best word I could find for it), deafening void.

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SeeEye
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby SeeEye » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:28 pm

Well, we had a nice chat last night over the phone.

Where are you now in your work with this?

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Ronin7
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby Ronin7 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:41 am

Yesterday was an interesting day...
I was on the phone at work and something "hit". I looked at my computer screen and I didn't fee like "I" was there.
I was looking through my eyes by I felt really far away, and calm. Really calm, and really far away. Like a detachment. I rambling and probably not making sense but it makes sense to me. Kind of. I'm trying to describe it and I'm reaching for the right words.


The rest of the day, and into today, The I wasn't there. There was this "watcher" there. This awareness. Being aware of being aware. It's hard to put into words.

Which one of the phases we discussed would the above be?

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SeeEye
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Re: Space for Ronin7

Postby SeeEye » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:55 pm

What then is the "I"? Does it exist?


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