Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

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Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:01 pm

Hi dear guides,

It is really amazing what happens in this forum, it seems like there is some kind of revolution going on.
My name is Karin, I live in Germany and have been a seeker of happiness for the last ten years.
At the beginning there was a lot of reading of enlightenment literature of Osho, Tolle, Samarpan, Krishnamurti, etc. which felt frustrating after all as I discovered that reading alone does not get one anywhere. And I was not going to be a Satsang follower.

So I continued reading and experiencing with methods of the self-help-industry, trying to accept all my feelings whatsoever, working with the Inner child, doing self inquiry with Focusing (Gene Gendlin), was practicing NLP and loads of other techniques.
I also did and do still quite a bit of body work like regular Yoga and tried Acupressure as well.
The method that really helped me the most so far is the Sedona Method.
By welcoming all my thoughts and feelings and really focusing into “What is actually here now?”,
I discovered that there is no personal center, but only awareness, emptiness, space …
feeling a big relieve at the these times.
I sometimes manage to stay in there for a while but then usually loose the sense again.

What do I expect?
Since I take everything what happens really personal, there is a huge longing of breaking free
of all the suffering provided by identifying with all that.
I hope to find a way to live a life, to experience all thoughts, feelings and emotions but not taking them for serious because of the truly sensed knowledge that they are not true.

And yes, I will commit myself to be honest with this process, and with my guide as well, appreciating all the time and energy provided. And I will answer at least once a day.

Karin

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby Elizabeth » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:18 pm

Hello Karin, nice to meet you here. Thank you for a thorough and useful introduction,
You've done a lot of work already, so let's dive in.

You write:
"I discovered that there is no personal center, but only awareness, emptiness, space …
feeling a big relieve at the these times.
I sometimes manage to stay in there for a while but then usually loose the sense again."

This is possibly an expectation, that awakening means that you will be in a state of transcendence 24/7. I can say from talking to a lot of recently awakened people, as well as some who have been awake for awhile, that most people awake and still have some (or a lot of ) work to do to clear unquestioned assumptions and expectations. And that one of those assumptions is that an awakened person controls their enlightenment, or scripts it according to an established pattern.
-Could you trace that assumption back to something you read or heard? Have you read or heard things that do not support that assumption? Please check. If there are conflicting reports, why did you choose to remember the ones about 24/7 transcendence?

You also wrote:
"What do I expect?
Since I take everything what happens really personal, there is a huge longing of breaking free
of all the suffering provided by identifying with all that.
I hope to find a way to live a life, to experience all thoughts, feelings and emotions but not taking them for serious because of the truly sensed knowledge that they are not true."

Great, we are going to look directly at what makes things personal.

-What things, in reality or in mind, seem to belong to a you? Define a you?

Much love, and welcome. Elizabeth

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:17 pm

Hi Elisabeth,

That’s just great, you are going to be guiding me! At first I was planning to send a request to you,
But then changed my mind considering whoever is coming would be the right one to come.
“This is possibly an expectation, that awakening means that you will be in a state of transcendence 24/7. I can say from talking to a lot of recently awakened people, as well as some who have been awake for awhile, that most people awake and still have some (or a lot of ) work to do to clear unquestioned assumptions and expectations. And that one of those assumptions is that an awakened person controls their enlightenment, or scripts it according to an established pattern.
-Could you trace that assumption back to something you read or heard? Have you read or heard things that do not support that assumption? Please check. If there are conflicting reports, why did you choose to remember the ones about 24/7 transcendence?”
No, I do not believe, that awakening means to be at a transcendence state all the time.
It is just from my experience that listening into myself and feeling that it is NOT ME who is experiencing that
usually gives me such a big relieve.
But you are right in that it feels a bit trance-like, it takes me quite a bit of effort to stay there,
because of focusing a lot and checking if this nothing-feeling is still there …
I am quite probably quite influenced by the teachings of the Sedona Method,
but Hale Dwoskin also says freedom is effortless.
Great, we are going to look directly at what makes things personal.
-What things, in reality or in mind, seem to belong to a you? Define a you?
Things I own, because there is something in me telling me they are my property
and I have to control keeping or protecting them. MYthings are also connected with a certain body feeling,
mostly tension in my stomach.
Especially strong I feel about special MYthings they are connected to a certain story,
for to a special memory I am attached to, being a sort of anchor to longing to have that situation back
which used to have been MINE.
There is also a strong MYfeeling with things which seem to make me special, seem to define part of ME
like a certain way to wear my clothes I developed for myself or a certain opinion I am identified with.
I might also want to be liked or loved for having these things.

There are also MYthings with a body feeling I do not like with a sort of resistance to it,
because e.g. they are reminding me of something I do not have, like my flat I would love to exchange
for a house, but we have not been finding anything reasonable yet.
Also some of MYrelatives seem to give me a lot of bad feelings.

MYthings can be people, memories, opinions, feelings, thoughts, work results (I am a designer)
all of them either in a confortable or uncomfortable sense,
but even with the good “objects” like my boy friend I feel really good about
there is still a slight feeling of fear to loose them.
We probably would all be better off without this sense of possession.

I continue exploring.

Lots of Love and thank you. Karin

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:52 pm

...
And I forgot, the "things" which feel the most personal are of course MYproblems,
at least this possession feels most painful ..

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:20 pm

...
And when I look at one of MYobjects
I can see, that by considering it to be MINE,
I construct meaningfulness, followed by feelings and very often suffering

I can watch the same object not labelling it MINE
and the feeling about it is a lot lighter.
Possession seems to be made up by decision …

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:34 am

...
This morning I was taking a bath,
looking at what I consider to be MYbody.

As there were no disturbing sensations
it felt really easy to see it at A body

Looking more thorough
there was only perceiving of the pictures and sensations
I am accociating with "body".

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:19 am

Hi Karin,
Really good work, this one question starts to unravel the ME concept, if you follow it! All the thoughts and stories ABOUT what belongs to the ME, are held together.
And the thoughts ABOUT objects are associated with, as you say, pictures, sensations, and emotions. It's a very rich representation of life. But is it life? Let's look till we know the answer.

You have done work on the thoughts with the Sedona Method.
So you know that they only point to an object in consciousness. A mental representation which changes if there is a different thought ABOUT it. A you adds meaning to it, as you have said.

Let's just make sure that point is front of mind here:
-Is it more true to say that the cup on the table is A cup, or a MY cup?
-Is a MY cup more real?
Tell me how the mechanism works to attach objects to a sense of self.

And then please look for the origin of these thoughts ABOUT the world.
-Where do thoughts come from?
-Are they controllable?
-Does a you choose which ones to have and which ones should leave? For instance, the problems which belong to a you? Or the good memories?


That is a lot more work, Karin, but I think your mind works well and quickly, and we are on the right track.
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:35 pm

Hi Elisabeth,

many thanks for your post, and the PM also.
It is so much more help with a guide, as I tend to take a question much more for serious,
when somebody else is asking me ...
First questions first:
Let's just make sure that point is front of mind here:
-Is it more true to say that the cup on the table is A cup, or a MY cup?
The cup on the table is A cup,
It only feels MINE, when there is a certain desire about it
like me longing for a cup of tea or having certain feelings about being the owner of this object.
And it is not even A cup,
since cup is only a label for this picture I perceive
of something we use for a certain purpose
-Is a MY cup more real?
Tell me how the mechanism works to attach objects to a sense of self.

Well, it does feel more real,
even though watched from another perspective, it IS not.
I feel an object in general to be more real,
when it is relevant to me,
somehow connected to MYlive, or to the story I call MYlive.

A strong feeling about something always provokes attachment or aversion,
both are a just feelings of positively and negatively perceived possession.

Certain beliefs about Myself (somehow gathered sometime)
make sure, that the ownership thought and feel
of an object (e.g. the cup) is helt in place.

But beliefs are also just stories MYmind made up
and then processed, just like the cup.
So the whole thing is just about chosen ownership.

I will continoue with the other questions later on. Love. Karin

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:08 pm

Love to a you, Karin. I look forward to seeing what comes next!
E

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:17 pm

So, Elisabeth, … continouing with the next questions
And then please look for the origin of these thoughts ABOUT the world.
-Where do thoughts come from?
I am not aware of where these thoughts come from,
I am not even aware of them appearing, it must be somewhere out of the nothing.
I am just aware of them in THIS moment.
And sometimes there even seems to be a thinking I am only half aware of,
not really getting, what the thinking wants to tell me.

Sometimes I believe that I am THE thinker and sometimes it is just chatting in the background.
Sometimes I understand why they appear and at other times I do not have a clue.
After a while they disappear again into nothingness, sometimes leaving a memory behind
Which can be perceived in the next moment of NOW …
-Are they controllable?

My ego can sort of influence them, getting them quiet by meditating
or trying to direct them by focusing on a certain subject,
That sometimes works fairly well and sometimes it does not at all.

Especially when there is another want being active underneath,
forming a lot of resistance, the thoughts just do not do what my mind is planning to.
And oddly, especially when I want to control my thoughtsthe most they behave the least …

And then I feel much more in control of them, when I am awake and happy,
But that does not mean I am in control.
-Does a you choose which ones to have and which ones should leave? For instance, the problems which belong to a you? Or the good memories?
That’s a tough one...
I suppose on one Layer my I does, on the other it does not.
It can sometimes be a choice to see certain things in a negative or a positive way,
to be attached to them or not, like deciding to let something go,
taking something easy, letting it flow.

And of course my ego has the power to reinforce good memories or problems
by adding meaningfulness to it.
It is really good in inventing dramas about ME and unconsciously creating pain.

But then, very often it also wants to change or not have
certain beliefs, memories, certain problems or pain
but by struggeling against it, it also reinforces them, instead of creating a solution.

This is why I believe that my I is rather powerless
and the choices it actually has are rather small.

…. still being quite confused about all the writing.

Love. Karin

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:40 am

Hi Karin, the writing is too much? I don't understand. Please let me know if this is a problem. I find your English is very good, and your work is coming along fine. We will go on unless it needs to change?

We look for truth in this way, we look at all the places we THINK a self hides, and check it out. We often assume that a self generates thoughts.
MY thoughts, must be generated by a ME, right? It is not really questioned.

So we just looked to see if that was really true, in YOUR experience. You looked, and tell me if this is a good summary of your last posts:

Where thoughts come from seems to be a mystery.
We can not see, when we look, a separate self that makes the thoughts happen.
The control of thoughts is momentary, and only achieved when focusing, for a short time.
We notice that attaching emotion and meaning makes a thought feel more real.
We notice that putting MY in a thought makes it part of a story about a ME.

For the next day, here is another thing to look at.
Do all thoughts have a ME, MINE, YOURS in them?
Could you take a day and watch the thoughts as you go about the normal business. Just start to notice how many thoughts have a MY in them, reaching out to touch something and attach them to a mental YOU.
When you do this exercise, I'd like to know what you find.

Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:57 am

Hi Karin, the writing is too much? I don't understand. Please let me know if this is a problem. I find your English is very good, and your work is coming along fine. We will go on unless it needs to change?
No, Elisabeth, everything is just fine, writing is not a problem and I really enjoy the process.
So, please keep asking!

Yesterday working on the last question it just felt a bit like fishing in muddy waters.
This work is nothing I am used doing.
That’s why trying to express things in words I am not feeling certain about
because their nature is sort of muddy felt challenging but also quite confusing.
Where thoughts come from seems to be a mystery.
We can not see, when we look, a separate self that makes the thoughts happen.
The control of thoughts is momentary, and only achieved when focusing, for a short time.
We notice that attaching emotion and meaning makes a thought feel more real.
We notice that putting MY in a thought makes it part of a story about a ME.
Thank you for the summery, I would certainly sign all that.

And now I will start watching thoughts while going about whoseever day this is ...

Lots of love. Karin

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:04 am

Do all thoughts have a ME, MINE, YOURS in them?
Could you take a day and watch the thoughts as you go about the normal business. Just start to notice how many thoughts have a MY in them, reaching out to touch something and attach them to a mental YOU.
When you do this exercise, I'd like to know what you find.
I am sure about that a lot of my thoughts have a ME, MINE, YOURS in them,
sometimes they do not even seem to be real thoughts,
but some subtle thinking energy underneath, more like a MYfeel.
So it is kind of hard to find out …

With MYthoughts there is lots of giving myself orders what to do, pushing myself,
wanting ME to do something,
loads of resistance of ME just NOT wanting to do just this very thing,
Judgements of myself, questionising myself why I don’t “operate” well,
not doing it good enough …
Wanting MYself to get things right, sometimes just to try to control OTHERS to like ME.
Thoughts of not wanting certain feelings (about ME)
Thoughts about what do about them.
Welcoming them is good,
maybe once again checking if I can actually find the ME that is never ending circle is all about.

At other times I notice myself doing everyday things spontaneously,
Seemingly without a thought needed.
Or looking out of the window, starring in the width, resting
No thought, just breathing happening.
Times of laughter don’t seem to have any thought either.

Then working on my project,
writing something which feels constructive,
no ME is needed most of the time.
Sometimes interrupted by a thought,
Great Karin, YOU got a brilliant idea
or a doubt if that is going to be creative enough,
whether I am being able to make it in the time provided.

So, now I will be going on a two days trip, continouing this further on the ride.
By the way I might or might not be able to get internet access that regularly.

1000 thanks and lots of love. Karin

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:26 pm

Yes, that is exactly it. I particularly like how you talked about the subtle MYfeel to the energy underneath.
And the thoughts have this argument! In a group I attend we call it the "itty bitty shitty committee" :-)
Enjoy the trip and the looking.
Much love, E

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Re: Who would like to guide me into discovering beingness?

Postby pregunta » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:02 pm

Yes, Elisabeth, I fairly enjoyed the trip.
On the five hours drive there was plenty of time to think it over.

There always seems to be a sense of ME attached, whenever I want to figure out ,
judge, or choose something,
and I am not quite sure how these complex thinking processes
could possible be done completely without the sense of the JUDGER, CHOOSER, ASKER …

But for sure I can do simple actions without identifying with it,
not needing an I thought to wash my hands.

Sitting in this car, detached from the normal working routine,
I notice the way I produce meaning all the time when I feel identified with my thoughts,
And I have started asking myself to which story I am adding once again.
That just makes me laugh …

Thats it so far, some insights but also more muddy water ...

Love. Karin


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