There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -help!

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Audra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 pm

There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -help!

Postby Audra » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:00 pm

In the past two years I have read many Advaita/non-duality type books. I listen to Youtube recordings from various non-duality teachers every night and on weekends when I do not have to go to work. Unlike in the past, I have been spending my free (from work) time alone and loving it. There is no interest in social interaction. No intreset in any activities accept for the finding of this Truth, Liberation. The intellectual understanding and acceptance of non-duality teaching is here. What I have read on your website is also accepted totally, it resonates. However, the direct 'experience', or I should say, beingness, without identification is not felt. There is always this "I" and it feels so confined. The seeking is the suffering, I know. Yet, I cannot drop the seeking as I have no choice. I understand that "i" has no choice or free will.
I had a glimpse of that emptiness once for few seconds. There was no 'I', eveything was inside 'that', there was this emptiness in which everything appeared including this body. But just for few seconds.
I must know the Truth. When I say "I", I do not mean this individual because I understand that this individual cannot be liberated. I know that it must be seen that there is no "I". What sees that there is no "I"?
I feel frustrated and it is difficult to just let it all be as it is, plus there is no choice anyway. I had enough of this identification with something that is not real. "I" is only a concept. I still believe in it although don't want to.

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:46 pm

Hi,

We can walk together for a while, provided that you are ok with the setup here, which is:

-Guides ask you questions, you look into them and work with them as best you can.
-What we are looking into is seeing, not content of thoughts, past and what most consider therapy. This is not a chat group.
-You are healthy and balanced enough to do this work.

Would you please tell me about what you expect from seeing no-self?

Also, tell me about what your "self" is, and why the intellectual understanding isn't helping.

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:48 pm

You are able to post everyday and have some time to work with this, correct?

Also, is there a name which I can use to call "you"?

Care,

CI

User avatar
Audra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:18 am

Thank you very much for your reply. Yes, I agree with the rules.
There might be a big time difference between us so replies might not always come straight away, but they will come everyday. I am very keen.
You can call me Audra.
Would you please tell me about what you expect from seeing no-self?


When I see that there is no-self, this body would continue to do what it does, but I would not be identified with the thought "I am this body", I would not experience it as "my body". Body would just be there and the life would be lived through it, as it is now. There would be no locality for the 'me'. The identification would shift towards identifying with the space, so there would be no self as individual. Attention would be on/from the emptiness in which everything occurs. Without no-self, there is just space and total allowance/acceptance of what happens in it, nothing is personal. Hence, liberation.
Also, tell me about what your "self" is, and why the intellectual understanding isn't helping.
My "self" at the moment feels like it is this body and also the awareness of this body and everything that is experienced through it, self is also some sort of knowingness. That knowingness or beingness feels limited to what the body can perceive. The observing is from the body. It feel like my-self is a shadow of this body, it follows it everywhere.
Contents of thoughts: name, profession, nationality and so on - these do not feel as real as 'my body' does. Body feels real and it is mine, unlike all the other bodies out there.
My "self" feels trapped in the body - which is funny because as if the body could trap the self, the emptiness! This is where the intellectual understanding (that the body cannot trap the self/emptiness) does not help. Intellectual understanding is composed of thoughts and they cannot help, one must experience it, otherwise it is just an acceptance of another thought. One must stop believing with the thought that I am this body.

Thank you for your guidance.

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:18 pm

Thanks Audra for the nice reply. Let's dive in.
Body would just be there and the life would be lived through it, as it is now.
Of all your expectations, this is more accurate. This is happening now, accept you need to see how self is created. Body is doing, awareness is happening. Explain the part that comes along and "thinks" it "owns" because it claims ownership.
There would be no locality for the 'me'. The identification would shift towards identifying with the space, so there would be no self as individual. Attention would be on/from the emptiness in which everything occurs. Without no-self, there is just space and total allowance/acceptance of what happens in it, nothing is personal. Hence, liberation.
Did this come from your reading? These things may or may not happen, and also might need to deepen over time. Just don't want these expectations to get in the way or act as "proof".
My "self" at the moment feels like it is this body and also the awareness of this body and everything that is experienced through it, self is also some sort of knowingness.
You have 6 doors for awareness....your 5 sense and thinking. Can awareness be aware of all of these equally?

Old saying....if you can observe it, that's not it "self". Can you observe feelings/sensations?
It feel like my-self is a shadow of this body, it follows it everywhere.
The feeling of self follows the body everywhere, or comes from within the body?

User avatar
Audra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:56 pm

Yes, I need to see how the self is created. I looked into your great questions today.
“Explain the part that comes along and "thinks" it "owns" because it claims ownership.”
The part that thinks it “owns” the body is clearly my mind. What is mind? A bundle of thoughts/information with a primary thought that says this particular bundle of information (content about ‘me’) is mine. Therefore, the part that takes ownership of the body is a thought. “My body” is a thought, but “the body” is real. The body has a brain that allows for 5 senses and thoughts to be processed. It is its function. No problem with that. However, the thought that “this brain is mine”, therefore, “this body is mine” is where the attention is. I am aware of these thoughts, so I am not it.
I look further and I cannot find anything that is “mine” and is not a thought. Everything just is: body, brain, the functioning, things around. Then the thought arises that these are “mine”. If I shift attention from that thought, I feel that I still exist. Yet, I cannot find the “I” that exists unless a thought of “I” is believed. It feels like everything that “I” knows is a thought.
Therefore, there is no “me” at all based on this logical deduction. I stress the word ‘logical’ here, which still implies thought and that I have arrived to that conclusion by thinking and by looking. Who is looking? I don’t know. Nothing is looking, yet there is looking. Brain cannot grasp it and the knowing of this does not yet shine through.
There is nothing here, yet there is. Brain is being fried by trying to figure it out. This thought “I” or “mine” is frequent, hence the identification. How to be without the “I” experientially, not just based on my deduction above?
“I wrote: There would be no locality for the 'me'. The identification would shift towards identifying with the space, so there would be no self as individual. Attention would be on/from the emptiness in which everything occurs. Without no-self, there is just space and total allowance/acceptance of what happens in it, nothing is personal. Hence, liberation.”
“You asked: Did this come from your reading?”
This came from my understanding of readings and also from that brief experience I have described in my very first post: there was space, everything appeared in it, knowing was from that space, there was no “me” experientially, it was just emptiness. This was very short, but so freeing.
“You have 6 doors for awareness....your 5 sense and thinking. Can awareness be aware of all of these equally?”
I am aware of 5 senses and thoughts. “I” is aware of them, so they are not who I am. Is awareness aware of them equally? “I” does not know that. Awareness seems like a stranger to the “I”. I don’t know awareness. The experiencing of 5 senses and thoughts is from the “I”. If “I” is removed, then 5 senses and thoughts should remain. I am not looking from awareness itself so I cannot talk for it. Yet, awareness exists for me to be aware of “I” and the rest. I am confused as to what awareness is in practical terms. I am not able to say “I am awareness”. Thus, awareness just is, but…
“Old saying....if you can observe it, that's not it "self". Can you observe feelings/sensations?”
Yes, I can observe feelings/sensations and for that reason they are not the “self”. I accept that. Yet, the thought claims them to be “mine”, which is also a thought.
I can see now that I only know “myself” as thoughts and sensations. Take away them, and there is no self. Yet, the identification is still here. Kind of frustrating.
“The feeling of self follows the body everywhere, or comes from within the body?”
Based on my deduction process above, the feeling of ‘self’ comes from thought. Thought comes out of nothing and is processed by the brain, which produces sensations in the body. So the self comes from the body and from wherever the thoughts come. The feeling of self is in the mind, but where is the mind? Nowhere! Hilarious, but also sad that somehow the ‘self’ is still believed.

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:00 pm

Good start Audra.

Are you expecting this seeing to be a state that remains? Thought can still come in with doubt, but at some point you will know and won't believe it and be hooked by it.
I can see now that I only know “myself” as thoughts and sensations. Take away them, and there is no self. Yet, the identification is still here. Kind of frustrating.
Yes, take them away. "The identification" is not a noun, it is "you" thinking, then feeling a feeling (proof) then more thinking and labeling. Saying it the way you did gives it life and existence. Are you willing to let this insistent believing go?

Thought happens, feeling happens, thought comes along and says in internal dialogue "SEE, there is still identifying with self, so it MUST be there". Yet...can't this be watched and observed by awareness? Look for yourself.

The vague feeling of self needs to be seen for what it is. Sometime when you have some time, try the following.

Sit down, take a deep breath, close your eyes. Tap on your left hand with your right hand and feel the sensations. Ask yourself...Am i those sensations, or is it that the body just feels them and then thought comes and labels this.

User avatar
Audra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:01 pm

“Are you expecting this seeing to be a state that remains?”
Yes, “I” expects that.
"The identification" is not a noun, it is "you" thinking, then feeling a feeling (proof) then more thinking and labeling.”
Yes, I can see that now – thank you. Identification is definitely not a noun, but content of thoughts, similar to the words: university or school or doctor. They are not things, but descriptions. A person looking at a building would not know that it is a school unless they see a label ‘High School’. I did not see it this way before.
“Are you willing to let this insistent believing go?”
Yes, I am! But who is willing? This is where I am confused because “I” is not capable of letting the believing go because it is a thought in itself. It has no control. So when I ask myself whether Awareness can let the believing go, “I” is not able to answer that, because it is not up to the “I”, but the “I” is certainly hoping that the believing will go away. Am I overanalyzing here?
Is this a matter of grace? Literature says that it is not up to the “I” when liberation happens. It either happens or does not.
So who lets the believing in identification/the self go???
“Thought happens, feeling happens, thought comes along and says in internal dialogue "SEE, there is still identifying with self, so it MUST be there". Yet...can't this be watched and observed by awareness? Look for yourself.”
Yes, it can be observed and watched by awareness. This is happening all the time anyway, just attention is on thoughts so it is not always noticed. Perhaps with practice and discipline the awareness becomes less obscured.

If Awareness is not a thing, so why isn’t Awareness a thought like identification is a thought? Isn’t it also a description of certain state?

In the past few days since our conversations began, there is a feeling that believe structures are falling away subtly. I am so grateful for your guidance. You point to certain aspects in my writings, and only then the seeing happens. It seems to me, this investigation/looking is vital for liberation. The appearance of cause and effect I suppose…

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:25 pm

Good. Keep taking the steps.
Yes, I am! But who is willing? This is where I am confused because “I” is not capable of letting the believing go because it is a thought in itself. It has no control.
Yes but you don't believe it yet...it is intellectual knowledge, not experiential knowledge. Like reading books on skydiving, you can name all the gear, know about jumping, have read the accounts of others. Until you jump it's just academic.
So when I ask myself whether Awareness can let the believing go, “I” is not able to answer that, because it is not up to the “I”, but the “I” is certainly hoping that the believing will go away. Am I overanalyzing here?
You are smart, and you have to be willing to let go of being so smart. Being smart helps to a point, if you can get all the pieces lined up about what is 'not it', but it is not what will tip it over.

Knowledge will remain, but there won't be an "I" to own it.
Yes, it can be observed and watched by awareness. This is happening all the time anyway, just attention is on thoughts so it is not always noticed. Perhaps with practice and discipline the awareness becomes less obscured.
Awareness is there, while you are lost in thoughting. Are you giving some thoughts special attention? Ones that have feeling attached, or have certain content? If the self only exists as a part of thought labeling experiences, be those thoughts/internal dialogue, thoughts/internal movies, feelings and the 5 senses (all of which can be watched and thus are not it) .....then you have the words correct. Self just is not there. Awareness is aware, experience happens....then thought comes in to measure, categorize, label, and then thought says 'i' did that, and adds the illusion of ownership. Words are laid out just right now you need to experience it.

Sit down, look at an object, then watch thought turn, just as described. Take a deep breath, close your eyes, and look for your "self" in there. Look everywhere....just black and silent. Internal dialogue starts, tell it SHHh. In between thoughts, just space, black, silent.
If Awareness is not a thing, so why isn’t Awareness a thought like identification is a thought? Isn’t it also a description of certain state?
This might help: Why isn't enlightenment a purple? What is the square root of pizza? Who is asking?

Just because a question is asked does NOT mean it is owed an answer. We demand one, just as our parents demanded answers, but questions are not owed anything. Often the question is the misstep, because they are loaded with presuppositions which often do not exist.

Awareness is not like thought because it is there before thought happens.
Is this a matter of grace? Literature says that it is not up to the “I” when liberation happens. It either happens or does not.
Who needs to be liberated? The mistake needs to be unbelieved. Everyone has had the following experience at some point. You are laying in bed in the dark. You look around your room, maybe at a chair, desk, door. And there is some THING on it, looks like a cat or a monster or alien of some kind, but you don't have one of those. The hair on your neck stands up, breathing changes....you squint at this creature..............and.....

there is the moment of recognition, like a flash that says "sweatshirt". Realization happens. Not a monster, just my sweatshirt. At that flash, there is no "I" that "did" anything to realize. THEN...thought comes in and says "that was silly of me". In fact, nothing happened. Awareness was aware, mind knew monster for a few moments, mind knows sweatshirt now, awareness still aware. Content changes.

Practice observing. Do your best, and watch yourself slip into thought. Then come back and observe through your eyes. Notice that visual seeing happens, then thought comes.
So who lets the believing in identification/the self go???
Nobody there to do any doing. 5 senses and thinking do what they do without prompting or doer needed.

Tell me about the last line there, and your experiences with this dialogue and the exercises.

Much love sent.

User avatar
Audra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:51 pm

Yes, you are right. I feel there is enough of intellectual understanding, it is time to follow the exercises today.
“Sit down, look at an object, then watch thought turn, just as described. Take a deep breath, close your eyes, and look for your "self" in there. Look everywhere....just black and silent. Internal dialogue starts, tell it SHHh. In between thoughts, just space, black, silent.”
“Practice observing. Do your best, and watch yourself slip into thought. Then come back and observe through your eyes. Notice that visual seeing happens, then thought comes.”
During the day, I took short breaks from work and did as instructed. I said to the internal dialogue ‘SHHh’ so many times today! At first it was aggressive ‘SHHh’, really telling myself to stop the obsessive thinking, then later it became a very gentle ‘SHHh’, it did not require telling, just a gentle reminder.
So I take breaks and look. There is nothing between thoughts and I cannot find myself. I am still using a thought to look, but everything around me just is. I can hear someone typing, someone talking, phone ringing, doors opening, and me breathing... I do not react, but I am aware of it all and in that sense, nothing is different from before. Yet, it is different because it is not personal. This lack of reaction does not feel like indifference. It is just allowance.
Then a feeling that something will never be the same arises. It is like a point of no return. Then slight fear arises. I look at it. Then I say ‘SHHh’ and it is gone.
Then I have to do work. Concentration and analysis is required. I get lost in work, immerse myself completely in it and attention is in that. Then a thought comes ‘who is doing the work?’. I look and I cannot say for sure that I am doing the work.
Then I take a break again to relax and observe as instructed. I feel relaxation, expansiveness, emptiness and everything is just happening without “I” thought. I am noticing a feeling I had in childhood and forgot about it over time. It’s like this is how it felt then: unassuming observing. Just living, being, no agenda, nowhere to be, nothing to do. I miss that so much!
“Who needs to be liberated? The mistake needs to be unbelieved.”
Yes, I see that. Nobody gets liberated. A belief in Self disappears. I see where this is heading, I begin to sense it, not just understand it. It’s like going back in time to that feeling in childhood.
“Nobody there to do any doing. 5 senses and thinking do what they do without prompting or doer needed.
Yes, I had a feeling like that today when I asked ‘who is doing the work?’. It was being done though this body, it did not require “I” thought. When I was so immersed in work, I have forgotten myself.

Everything around is just happening, but at the same time I get a feeling that nothing is happening, whist it is happening. Nothing is needed, nothing is wanted, nothing needs change. Then a thought comes ‘how long will this last?’. It was a good day for observing as there was no work related drama happening today, so the outside events did not challenge relaxation and observing. On a different day, it will be seen… That’s why I must keep up the exercises.

Physically I feel a motion happening, like shifting, motion like waves. Body does not feel as solid.
"Tell me about the last line there, and your experiences with this dialogue and the exercises.”
As described above, these are my experiences in the past 15 hours.
Your guidance is so beneficial! We started with intellectual understanding, which was required in order to see certain beliefs and pre-conceptions differently. Then you guided me to these exercises.
Although I have read many books of this type and listened to many recordings, this one-on-one dialogue has done more than all those other things together and I am so grateful for your time. I feel I need to keep going with the exercises. Today was a truly amazing day. Please keep me on track with this.
There is a feeling of gentle love present and sweet sadness, like saying goodbye to something…

Thanking you.

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:28 pm

Wonderful! Brilliant work, things are happening.

Comparing to state in childhood, saying to yourself "I think something is happening"....then say inside to yourself "thinking, labeling, comparing" Just watch that watching is happening on its own accord.

Just see that watching is happening on it's own accord.

Just see that watching is happening on it's own and....
I am still using a thought to look, but everything around me just is.
Just see that watching is not a thought, awareness is not a thought, is just IS without the need of a "you" to claim it.

You forgot to claim it most of the day lost in your work, but awareness was there, seeing and hearing was working, you didn't fall off your chair, you did work. Didn't this all happen without "I" being there?

What is this "I" now for you?

User avatar
Audra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:36 pm

“Just see that watching is happening on it's own accord.
Just see that watching is happening on it's own and....
Just see that watching is not a thought, awareness is not a thought, is just IS without the need of a "you" to claim it.”
I practiced this today. I consciously directed attention to the watching and when I did so, there was a sense that perceiving was happening in or from emptiness itself, not the body. There was awareness, for example, that my body was walking on the street on its own accord. That there was watching of the body walking, but “I” did not claim it. However, it required a thought or a reminder: “Just see that watching is happening on it's own accord”.
If I did not consciously follow the instruction, then perceiving would shrink to the body again. Some sort of flip-flopping could be felt.
“You forgot to claim it most of the day lost in your work, but awareness was there, seeing and hearing was working, you didn't fall off your chair, you did work. Didn't this all happen without "I" being there?”
Oh yes, like on autopilot. I was not consciously aware of awareness, but it had to be there on its own.
“What is this "I" now for you?”
What “I”! Thanks to your guidance, even my logic now tells me that there could not be any “I” or Self. However, some sort of belief must be present because the flop (the tip over) has not happened. There is an expectation of a flop, some point of tipping it over for good and irreversibly. At the moment it appears that there is a gradual progression, but progression must be a misconception, right?
I understand that there cannot be any Self or “I”. There is also subtle occasional experiential seeing that there is no Self. However, somewhere there must be something that holds on to the belief, but I don’t even know what part of it. Maybe I don’t even need to know… I just have to keep watching that watching is happening on it's own. Just keep on doing the exercises?
I must say that today there was a feeling of peace, joy and relaxation, some sort of lightness, weightlessness.
Thank you

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:54 pm

Lets keep going.
What “I”! Thanks to your guidance, even my logic now tells me that there could not be any “I” or Self.
Interesting that you have a talking logic. Where do you keep that? I read about a talking snake once.
However, some sort of belief must be present because the flop (the tip over) has not happened. There is an expectation of a flop, some point of tipping it over for good and irreversibly. At the moment it appears that there is a gradual progression, but progression must be a misconception, right?
Belief is that there is a self. Logic can't talk, you are talking trying to convince yourself. All thinking and talking happens on it's own...the organism and brain do this. You will know. Just like you know you have found your keys when you see them. Some recognize all at once, others aren't sure what they see right away.

You can't go get it or do it. The realization happens. Words mislead. "Coming home" implies that there is a "self" that goes somewhere, but nobody is already there. Nobody is already there. Nobody is already there but fooling herself that all this thinking and conceptualizing and inner dialogue is the real deal, when it is only obscuring the void of no-self. IT is a talking curtain that just keeps pointing you to other parts of itself, "Look at this corner, look at this seam, now look at this pattern?. Look behind the curtain of thought for yourself and what is there?
I understand that there cannot be any Self or “I”. There is also subtle occasional experiential seeing that there is no Self. However, somewhere there must be something that holds on to the belief, but I don’t even know what part of it. Maybe I don’t even need to know… I just have to keep watching that watching is happening on it's own. Just keep on doing the exercises?
If you intellectually know it doesn't exist...is it possible you are clinging to the "self" being so intellectual? Thinking you will get points for "figuring out" what few people do?

So the point isn't to tell yourself you understand - it is to see it. You really didn't answer my question, you just said "what I". Although those are accurate words, I want more for you than to assemble correct phrases.

Think on these and write what you come up with.

1) You create things out of concepts and give them power. "Belief" is the problem now. What is a belief made out of? Your beliefs are like your "self"...they are stored in the same place on a shelf in the mind? They are right next to concepts you don't believe in, like Santa and Unicorns. What is the difference in the concept of "I" and concept of "Unicorn"?? They are both thoughts, both thoughts are observed, both thoughts cannot be removed from the head and brought to corporal existence.

2) "i" is a label, a sign, that is meant to point to something in reality, represent something in reality. What, in reality, does "I" point to?

3) If I gave you a map, and told you there was a vast treasure waiting for you if Fartsville, a town that I made up and just added to the map at whim, you would try to find Fartsville but never would. You would tell everyone how smart you are, and such a good navigator, and that you were going to figure it out and get the treasure, dammit. But no matter what you did, you would never arrive, and there would be no treasure. NOW....explain what the difference is between "I" and "Fartsville". They both are symbols for what?

4) Does "I" exist?
I must say that today there was a feeling of peace, joy and relaxation, some sort of lightness, weightlessness.
Thank you
The realization is different for everyone. How can one know what to expect if they've never been there? Don't expect much, but you will know it when it happens. Old zen guys used to say things like "this is enlightenment? What a wet turd."

Look behind the curtain for yourself, around the thinking.

User avatar
Audra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:31 pm

“Interesting that you have a talking logic. Where do you keep that? I read about a talking snake once.”
Ha ha funny! Good point.
I get off track and you are on it. You don’t let me get away with anything, this is good. Ha ha
“Nobody is already there but fooling herself that all this thinking and conceptualizing and inner dialogue is the real deal, when it is only obscuring the void of no-self. IT is a talking curtain that just keeps pointing you to other parts of itself.”
“Look behind the curtain of thought for yourself and what is there?”
“Is it possible you are clinging to the “self” being so intellectual?”
Yes, “I” is doing that, it has a tendency to intellectualize, find answers. The curtain is saying: explore me! You will know me better! You will then understand me better! If you know me better, you will know what you are.
But how can “Nobody” have so much to say?

I have spent all day today by myself with with the following questions:
1) “You create things out of concepts and give them power. "Belief" is the problem now. What is a belief made out of? Your beliefs are like your "self"...they are stored in the same place on a shelf in the mind? They are right next to concepts you don't believe in, like Santa and Unicorns. What is the difference in the concept of "I" and concept of "Unicorn"?? They are both thoughts, both thoughts are observed, both thoughts cannot be removed from the head and brought to corporal existence.”
Yes, I see what you are saying - “Belief” is a problem now. I believe that I don’t believe in the Self, which is still “I” doing it and is a concept. I also believe that because I believe in some concept, the ‘flip over’ does not happen. I am trying to locate that obstacle, because then I can remove it. Yet, this belief is on the same shelf with all my other concepts and other beliefs. However, I give this particular ‘belief’ power, but I leave other beliefs alone.
I feel frustration coming up that “I” cannot figure it out. “I” is angry. I see this is a thought too.
I am feeling tension in my head.
Something is aware of that.
The concept of “I” and concept of “Unicorn” are both thoughts: one is believed in as having some reality because it is so familiar, the other one is not believed in at all. As you say, both cannot be removed from the head. Ok, I was trying to remove “I” from the head, from that shelf, because I don’t want it to be there. Whereas, I have no problem with “Unicorn” being there because it does not affect me, I don’t believe in it, it does not disturb me. “Unicorn” can sit on the shelf in my mind all it wants, but the “I”, oh it has to go! I see “I” as an obstacle. Ridiculous, isn’t it? I am not leaving the “I” alone, I am not letting it sit on that shelf together with the Unicorn. I had a belief that “I” should disappear.
2) "I" is a label, a sign, that is meant to point to something in reality, represent something in reality. What, in reality, does "I" point to?
I have spent a few hours on this question today. I don’t know! At nothing. Only that something is aware of “I”. Maybe the bellow exercise can help to answer.
3) If I gave you a map, and told you there was a vast treasure waiting for you in Fartsville, a town that I made up and just added to the map at whim, you would try to find Fartsville but never would. You would tell everyone how smart you are, and such a good navigator, and that you were going to figure it out and get the treasure, dammit. But no matter what you did, you would never arrive, and there would be no treasure. NOW....explain what the difference is between "I" and "Fartsville". They both are symbols for what?
“I” and Fartsville” are ideas, non-existent in reality, but exist in fantasy, in thought, in belief. It is easier to see that “Fartsville” does not exist in reality, but only on a map. A map is a tool to find reality (the area on a map), but the map is not reality. This map can be used to get to the area that exists, but it cannot be used to arrive to “Fartsville” because you placed it on a map, when in fact it does not exist. Fartsville only exists on a map as a dot, not as a town itself. The idea of Fartsville was there so that I go looking for it, but I find the reality instead: there is no Fartsville.
Ok, now if Mind = Map and I = Fartsville:
Similarly, “I” exist only as a dot in my mind, an idea in my mind. I really want to find “I”, to know what I am. So I use my mind (a tool) to go looking for “I”. The idea of “I” (Fartsville) is used as incentive to go looking (how deceitful and mean!). I can never find “I” in reality. I look in my mind (on the map) and “I” is there, I swear! If I don’t use my mind, if I don’t grab to thoughts, I cannot find anything, no “I”, nothing.
I don’t like this game that “Nobody” is playing because I don’t yet SEE! I cannot give up looking!

“I” points to where to look for reality, searching is going on and on and on, exhausting, frustrating! Starting to give up the search, starting to unbelieve that “I” is real.
Just like Fartsville points to reality (the area without it), but can never be found.
The question how long my determination to find “I” will last. I have been quite determined in life and it is not helpful here at all.

I go looking for Fartsville using the map, I can never find it in reality. I go looking for “I” using my mind, I cannot find it in reality. Fartsville and “I” are symbols of …. I don’t know how to answer that.
That is why I cannot answer question 2 above. I only see that “I” points to reality itself.
Is it a symbol of existence?
4) “Does "I" exist?”
“I” exists only as a concept, an idea, but not in reality. I need to go back to the basic. Why is “I” a concept? Because it is not a thing and cannot be located. That’s why it is an idea. Fartsville is an idea because it can never be located in reality, only on a map, so it is equally only a concept. It points to reality, but you have to go to that area on a map in order to see that what is on a map actually exists minus Fartsville.
So I use my mind (the map) as a guide and “I” (Fartsville) as a pointer and I look and I cannot find “I” and it is frying my brain! My mind supposed to help me to get to reality and to see that “I” is not there. I cannot find “I”, but something individual is still here.

I don’t know what to say. When I say something, that is not it. No thing is IT. It’s just nothing nothing nothing nothing is real accept for the physical things that are around. My mind is angry now. Frustrated. It is fighting to the last bit. The curtain is saying look at this pattern, look at that, I am still here, look at me, I am still here! I have to let it be there. I have to let “I” be there just like I let Unicorn be there. I cannot get rid of “I” because it is not possible, right? It will always be on that shelf in my mind, right? Even when I do not believe it anymore, just like Unicorn.

You really challenge me here and I am very grateful for that. Today was the most challenging investigating because I cannot find anything, I am just babbling, everything that I have written is just nonsense really, just concepts, yet it feels it is necessary to write it anyway.

I then sat by the lake for a couple of hours, relaxed, love and joy replaced frustration. I still have to SEE, but not through the Self. There is Nothing here when concepts are not thought about.

User avatar
SeeEye
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm

Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:25 pm

You did some very good work on you own with this.
I cannot get rid of “I” because it is not possible, right? It will always be on that shelf in my mind, right? Even when I do not believe it anymore, just like Unicorn.
You cannot get rid of unicorn, where will you find it? Also, where will you "get rid of it to"...where to put the damn thing?

Who is getting rid of "I"?

"I" is like one wave looking at the other waves, telling the other waves IT is the ocean. This is silly, just because it can make the statement doesn't make the statement true.

Try changing your language around to reflect what you are uncovering. Say "body has tension. Frustration present in the body. There is thinking. There is a twitch in the foot." Drop I, me, self labels for a while.
You really challenge me here and I am very grateful for that. Today was the most challenging investigating because I cannot find anything, I am just babbling, everything that I have written is just nonsense really, just concepts, yet it feels it is necessary to write it anyway.
What the hell are you expecting to find? Work with this. How can you find "non-unicorn" in reality?

Relax and let go. Be willing to let what will happen happen.

There is no step to take to grab it. There is no doer to do. No-flop is attained by no-self.
I then sat by the lake for a couple of hours, relaxed, love and joy replaced frustration. I still have to SEE, but not through the Self. There is Nothing here when concepts are not thought about.
Yes. Sit down, take a nice deep breath, relax, close your eyes. Now very gently and silently look. Awareness is aware, and you can feel that. You look inside, you turn around in your head looking for "you" and there is black and silent. You breathe easy, you actually look, and there is nothing, just black and silent.

Then a thought comes along and says "Something should be here". "This is not what I am expecting" ...and you are looking right at it.

Do you think that awareness that is black and silent needs to change or is going to go somewhere?

Do you think that thought can insert a no-self for you to see so you can tip over? Who is thinking that?

Go about your work in a relaxed way. Breathe, be nice to yourself. Note what comes up around the "I" from that.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests