Laurens this is for you :)

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Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:45 pm

Hi Laurens

Thanks for coming here.
There are two reasons why I want us to talk here. 1. It gives you time to experience and answer 2. It gives me time to reflect on your answers and ask new questions.

There are a few rules that I expect us to agree to
Answering every day, at least one time, if occasionally not possible, we will let each other know.
You answer, I question - mostly
You answer as honest as you possible can. Also I expect you to tell me if something is difficult to you due to your current condition. We are not in a hurry :)
Last but not least I would prefere if the only other reading/practice you do is what is needed in the therapy
- if you do drugs, please refrain from that while we are working.

If you can agree to these terms we can start.

Please give me some introducing sentences about your expectations from this work

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby lcurteis » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:38 am

Hi Vivi,
Thankyou for offering your help in what feels like this time of turmoil for me. Regarding the rules that's all ok with me, I have not touched drugs (including alcohol) for about 3 years now since that first glimpse.
So my expectations for this work is to try and gain abit of a better understanding of whats going on in my every day experience. I feel as if there is a need to switch allegiances from the constant thought patterns to the peace that I can't put a name on and can't see when I look for it. In doing this I would hope that the constant fighting my physical pain and turmoil in life situations would settle down.

With thanks
Laurens

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:08 pm

Hi Laurens

Good! Let's start then.

How do you understand direct experience?

What do you know about thougts and thoughtpatterns?

I have read your introduction om Facebook and suggest that we leave it there - it is the past. Here we will concentrate on now, as much as possible.

Warm regards Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby lcurteis » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:20 pm

Hi Vivi,
Direct experience for me at this time feels like a big mystery, there are sensations arising and looking out I can see the world but it is all different to how I used to perceive it. Or no that isnt quite right because the images are all the same but I guess the way I perceive these things has changed drastically. I can not put words on it. It's like where there used to be such a strong central character (me acting,particapating, responding in the world) this has dissapeared (or partly dissapeared as the old behavioural patterns still play out, and sometimes alot stronger than in the past.) I don't know how to respond to the world anymore it's like life is happening but without a centre.The only thing that is familiar or 'known' is the thought patterns and knee jerk reactions.
So regarding these though patterns often it is only in retrospect that I can look and see ohh this was some imprint of desire or fear playing out, but usually in the thick of it I am completely consumed by the reactions or there is some judgement going on about ohh it shouldnt be like this etc. Also when looking back in retrospect there is usually some strong judgements going on.
Regarding the past I will certainly leave that at the gate and not mention it here, during therapy at the moment we are tackling some quite heavy stuff relating to grief and I feel that needs to be looked at as for two years I buried it and did not talk to anybody about it but I am really feeling the benefits of opening up and talking to someone about it.

With thanks
Laurens

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:25 pm

Hi Laurens
Regarding the past I will certainly leave that at the gate and not mention it here
Leaving the past at the doorstep means that we can look at it whenever appropriate - if.


Direct experiencing is what I want you to do. That means put away all you have heard, read, thought, learned, believed, assumed about anything, and experience in the moment what is. As pointers to what to look into you can use my questions and your own feelings, emotions and body sensations.

it's like life is happening but without a centre
If you feel that the centre used to be 'I' - what you are experiencing is that it all just happens without an 'I'.
'I' does not exist. What do you feel when reading this?

greetings Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:51 am

Hi Laurens

I will probably be without a pc until monday evening. You just post at least one time a day, I will catch up.

Look at thoughts. How do they happen? Are they your thoughts? If yes are you in control? If no - what are they?

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby lcurteis » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:39 am

There is confusion around the interpretation of there being no I... The interpretation is that there is a broken I, that I was broken when all the terrible things happened to me a few years ago. I can't say 100% that there is no I. There are imprints of the old me still playing out in the reactions etc and then this is playing out alongside this mystery that I can't understand. Because of these imprints/behavioral patterns I cant say that I do not exist.
Ok I will look forward to hearing back from you in a few days. For now I will contemplate these thoughts. I have found in the past that to look at these thoughts clearly I have not been able to create enough space unless completely relaxed..this is often quickly followed by falling asleep.
With thanks
Laurens

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:15 pm

Hi Laurens
I can't say 100% that there is no I.
To what percentage can you say there is no 'I'?

How will you discribe 'I' according to your direct experience?

Looking forward to hear about thoughts :)

Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby lcurteis » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:46 pm

Hi Vivi,
I really cannot say with any confidence that there is an I or that there isnt an I.
I in my direct experience I can't find, when my focus is totally on looking/feeling for an I then nothing comes up. But in the passage of time there is a character that plays out. There are physical sensations. There are familiar thought patterns. There is seemingly a son and a brother in this family environment, family members relate to me as this me, Laurens.

Thoughts are so elusive, when I look for them I get a headache. But when things are playing out in everyday life then they are seemingly the first port of call to see how to relate to everything, but it feels as if there is limited awareness of this process going on until afterwards.

Thankyou for your time

Laurens

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Hi Laurens
I in my direct experience I can't find, when my focus is totally on looking/feeling for an I then nothing comes up
AhA! This is where you are going to look - focus totally on looking/feeling - Good!
But in the passage of time there is a character that plays out. There are physical sensations. There are familiar thought patterns. There is seemingly a son and a brother in this family environment, family members relate to me as this me, Laurens.
Okay - and no I needed?

When you do Mindfulness, are you looking at thoughts? Just letting them pass like clouds on the sky?
Thankyou for your time
You are welcome

Warm regards Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby lcurteis » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:09 pm

It seems there is no I needed unless something is not satisfied with what is here. There can be the letting go into this and there is no need for a me to fight whats arising. Like today it was a really pleasant day and there was letting go and then more letting go and then more. When things are not so nice as today then that is when the kicking and fighting starts. This me thinks up all the ways that experience should be different.
I would like to say that when i do mindfulness I can just watch and let thoughts flow through like a stream but in honesty I have never reached that state. The only time this has been the case is when I lie on my back and just let go, let everything be as it is (which I do everyday for an hour or so,) this 'state' is usually quickly followed by falling asleep.
Laurens

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:42 pm

Hi Laurens

Thanks for your reply. It is very useful to me. I will save my comments for now and ask you to look at thoughts - just look at them during the day. What are thoughts, what makes them appear, what makes them disappear, are they your thoughts, can you control thoughts, etc.

Warm regards Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:07 pm

Hello!

Greetings Vivi

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby lcurteis » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:17 pm

Hi Vivi,
I didn't leave a post yesterday as it felt like there was more to be seen with regard to thoughts. I still can't really say with any confidence but it is like thoughts just arrive, they dont seem to be coming from anywhere (or when I become aware of them it is after they are here.) It also doesn't seem like I have any control of them, apart from there is sometimes reactions to them. But when there is an attempt to not react to them then there is more tension. So it seems I have no control over them or my relationship to them. There is just a force that makes things come up in the moment (thoughts, reactions to thoughts, non reactions to thoughts.)

With thanks

Laurens

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Re: Laurens this is for you :)

Postby dreamer » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:40 pm

Hi Laurens
Nice to hear from you.

Very fine observations on thoughts! Wherein lies the uncertainty of the observation that thoughts just arrive and leave without an I to control them?

Look at thoughts again, are there a force that makes thoughts come up in the moment?
Are there any I in control of thoughts?

If you find that there are no I in control of thoughts, what do you feel that means?

Very fine job indeed.

Greetings Vivi :)


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