On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:31 pm

Hello dear Guides,

After about 9 years of seeking, I was finally exposed to non-duality teachings. I know this is because I am finally ready to see the truth. I have approached Enlightenment from a new angle - that of questioning the validity of the seeker itself. As in... Who exactly is seeking Awakening, and who isn't awakened, and why, and what is observing all of this - etc etc. I've been picking away at the self for a few months now and I have to say I feel much lighter, less reactive, freer, and have even had moments where things just become really Clear, and the sense of separation dissapears and there is just wonder and light (not light as in i see something supernatural, but that everything i look at is just clear, or NOT-imbued with any shades). These experiences of course disappear, and I am left with the 'seeker' once more. I have to say thought that the seeker is becoming more and more transparent, as in things are much better, and there is (an assumed) progress.

I've also been using the Enlightening Quotes app and it has been hitting this realization of no-self pretty deep, chipping away at many layers.

My basic experiences with self-inquiry has been.

"Who am I?" or "is there a separate I"?
---> Thoughts about it come, but these are easily dealt with, as I have experience meditating and with subtler states
---> Aggregates of 'self' come, but these are deconstructed to be feelings, sensations, tightness, tension, thoughts, and a sense of "I" all bundled together
** After I get through these layers there is just a clarity, or awareness, as if coming out of a cloud, but then this awareness is interupted by another 'layer'...
---> Tightness or tension is left... sometimes in the head, solar plexus, stomach area. I have noticed certain patterns. It's almost as if parts of my body are like a clenching fist, unconsciously and habitually and stubbornly just staying closed. Here are some examples of the depth that I arrive at:
- Sometimes when I feel extremely light and almost barely physical I still feel a sense of personal awareness stuck in my head
- Sometimes I will feel again very light and clear, but there will be a part of my body really clenched and tight
- Sometimes I will be led to a darker emotional-physical area that will be painful, sticky, sharp, and be sort of stabbing me for attention... sort of like a convincing me back in to a 'problem that needs to be fixed'.
- All in all, I find a sense of 'convincing' about these tightness or knots, always trying to get me to 'deal' with it. Sometimes I am unsure whether I should 'deal' with it. Sometimes it feels right to just keep resting in clarity, and sometimes it feels right to dig up and unravel these knots, and as I do I return to just clarity... but there is usually still a sense of a personal me, however subtle it is, and usually more tension to deal with. It seems to never end.

So I cannot seem to get beyond this tension/tightness/emotional-physical knots, except for those moments of super clarity that are, thankfully, increasingly commonplace. It seems there is a cyclical process that keeps the "I" alive and kicking, and whatever is still kicking seems to be because of years of momentum of belief in it, including about 10 years of seeking.

I've also had a few noteworthy spiritual experiences which I know to be only experiences, but have definitely been valid glimpses. I won't write about them but feel free to ask me about them if they would help.

Top sum up, I seem to be on the right track, and it certainly feels that way, and the clarity experiences (perhaps mini awakenings) seem to be reinforcing the notion of being on the right track, but I feel that I could do with help from someone that is already awake to help point me in the right direction. I am always looking for a more direct and comprehensive approach. I want to get to the root, and end this... whatever it is.

My basic expectations are:
- the end of suffering or problems. I realize that uncomfortable emotions and such may arise and that life won't suddenly get good or perfect, and that challenges will always be part of life, but I do assume that the root misunderstanding will be removed and all 'issues' after that will be much easier to deal with, because I will see things as they are.
- understanding of the nature of reality - which includes my personal experience, the human experience, and how this relates to all manifest life and that which allows manifest life to be. Basically, seeing, knowing and never being apart from Truth ever again.
- the opening of the ability to help others to achieve this as well, and explain it in a way that will help awakening.
- a constant undercurrent of peace, and clarity - this is not to say that i will always feel peaceful and good, but I do believe there will always be an undercurrent knowing and space that will never again be affected regardless of what is going on 'around' 'it'.

I'm willing to be open and honest and I am able to articulate my experience from multiple levels of experience, and I have a great awareness of my thought-stream content, and emotional-physical-stream as well. Feel free to be as direct and as deep as you want to be.

I'm ready,

Truth take me.

- cos.

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby Eloratea » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:07 pm

Hello cos and welcome!

I find your expectations realistic but bit out of the scope of this forum.
Nevertheless, we can talk and see if it is useful.

Do you exist in any way or form? Here, right now.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:14 pm

Hey Eloratea,

Thanks for your prompt response,

In response to your question, the question just seems to lead to a super-quietening... when i am in that quiet there is no response, but what is felt after a few seconds is a sensation or tightness in the body which gives a slight sense of there being a me that exists, or better yet something to be fixed. Maybe this is after effects of my seeking for so many years where I thought all that arose was something to be fixed, especially tension in the body, or negative emotions.

so in a sense the answer is there is no answer at first, and then there is an unsettling and the answer would probably be a 'yes'.

may i ask what about my expectations are out of scope for this forum?

Thank you!

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby Eloratea » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:37 pm

Hey there :)

may i ask what about my expectations are out of scope for this forum?
Yes. This conversation usual triggers seeing of illusion of separate self, but doesn't bring definite clarity. Process unfolds further and it is different for everyone. It seems that you already done a lot but we still don't know how this will unfold further for you. Anyway, we need to leave all expectations here and just innocently and gently look into this what is already here and now and see if there is any separate entity in our direct experience.
In response to your question, the question just seems to lead to a super-quietening... when i am in that quiet there is no response,
Maybe that silence is the response?
but what is felt after a few seconds is a sensation or tightness in the body which gives a slight sense of there being a me that exists,
are the sensations any proof of self? Or they are just sensations?

or better yet something to be fixed. Maybe this is after effects of my seeking for so many years where I thought all that arose was something to be fixed, especially tension in the body, or negative emotions.
What if that was just wanting attention, kind attention and acceptance to be transformed and dissolved into nowhere from which it came?
Is there anything wrong with here and now?
so in a sense the answer is there is no answer at first, and then there is an unsettling and the answer would probably be a 'yes'.
What if the first answer is true and second comes from thinking and learned patterns?
But look again and please don't answer here with probably.

With Love.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:21 pm

Hey again,

Thanks for the prompt replies. I am totally down to keep the conversation going as much as I can and I appreciate you on the other side.

Maybe that silence is the response?
Yes, I guess silence was the response, but giving a response did not feel right, it just felt right to be quiet. LOL... so I responded that there was no response :P
are the sensations any proof of self? Or they are just sensations?
The sensations are sort of a knot of several things, ranging from just one sensation or tightness, to a few areas in the body, an image, a thought, etc. I am in a quiet space now so the sensations are simple and singular, when walking around doing stuff it can be more complex. I have deconstructed these types of sensations before and they do not lead to a self, just a clarity, which is i guess silence or awareness, like i said above - like coming out a of a cloud and just seeing clearly.

However, this is where the loop starts. There is clarity, silence, awareness, whatever... and then there is a new tightness... and then the process is repeated. The only exception to this is those moments of clarity where there is just clarity of seeing, and everything around me (city, people) become and feel unitary. it's a sense of wonder and there isn't (as far as i can remember) a sense of separation. But, back to this point... it seems to be a loop. I can never find a self when I investigate, and I've been investigating pretty earnestly so far.
What if that was just wanting attention, kind attention and acceptance to be transformed and dissolved into nowhere from which it came?
Is there anything wrong with here and now?
Yes, I agree. I have been practising this kind of loving-kindness towards myself for a while now, but this practice has improved and become quicker and easier because of the fact that I always dig in to the question if there is a self that is behind it, and whatever is left, be it emotion or tightness seems to unravel and dissolve much quicker, in to the clarity/emptiness/whatever from which it came. This practice has been improving my overall experience for the past few months. But it's cyclical, which is why I am reaching out for help. Perhaps there is something deeper and more direct I can do, or it's perhaps just a matter of time, and things I need to attend to within (unresolved emotions and fear) before the realization pops, and maybe it's both.

So I guess keep doing what I am doing? :P I will definitely do so, as I have been doing.

And In terms of wrong with the here and now... Not really... and the reason for that answer is the same as what has been articulated before. I feel the sense of clarity and silence, and then there are activation patterns within the body nagging and vying for attention. I guess the problem here is that I want to fall forever in to the silence, and 'get rid of' the 'blocks/karma' or whatever. So what happens is that the "I" comes up with an excuse, which is the emotional/physical activation and uses that as another reason to get in to fixing mode and seeking mode. Upon this, I again, try to find the "I" or self, but I can't find it. However... lol... the cycle continues, although there is continuing refinement.
What if the first answer is true and second comes from thinking and learned patterns?
But look again and please don't answer here with probably.
Yes, I definitely feel and believe that this is true. BUT (lol), there is still a high preference for the first, and a large aversion towards the second. I will continue to deconstruct the second, which always returns me to the first. So this is interesting. I've noticed this before, but our conversation clarifies this dualistic experience, and the recurring sense of discomfort, and then an arising "I" to fix it!

(after another look)

I looked deeper in to the tension and tightness, and I asked if "this is evidence of a separate self", and there was a sort of rumbling of energy and then there was "I'm tired of feeling this way, I just want to be free, I'm tired of feeling this way, I just want to be free"... that repeated many times, and when I looked through that for a self there was just a static like white energy being released. It's sort of like a mini-I that is screaming in agony for it to stop. I practiced surrendering it and allowing it space to 'speak and scream' and it seems to dissipate, but there also seems to be a lot of it, so perhaps my work will be to see this stuff through to the end?

Now there seems to be this energy active in my body, and the answer to "do I exist in any way or form" seems to point to that, and I'm deconstructing that as well.

I may have gotten overly mental in my analysis, but I'm just trying to give you (and myself) a good picture of what is occuring. I guess I feel overwhelmed with how much stuff seems to keep coming up. I feel I've been dealing with 'stuff' for over 10 years, and feel ready to finally be free. However, I also know that now with searching for the self-under-the-stuff, this may actually 'get me somewhere'.

Much Love,

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby Eloratea » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:53 am

Hi cosmik :)

I like your detailed reply. Keep going in the right direction.

There is clarity, silence, awareness, whatever... and then there is a new tightness... and then the process is repeated. The only exception to this is those moments of clarity where there is just clarity of seeing, and everything around me (city, people) become and feel unitary. it's a sense of wonder and there isn't (as far as i can remember) a sense of separation. But, back to this point... it seems to be a loop. I can never find a self when I investigate, and I've been investigating pretty earnestly so far.
You know that onion is empty in the center, yet, there are layers around that emptiness.
It is similar with person. Buy layers are not proof that there is something within. There isn't.
When it is clear then so called layers can be also seen for what they are much more clearly.
Truth is already here right now, so I find the loving-kindness approach appropriate with steady looking with desire for liberation and truth.
I guess the problem here is that I want to fall forever in to the silence, and 'get rid of' the 'blocks/karma' or whatever. So what happens is that the "I" comes up with an excuse, which is the emotional/physical activation and uses that as another reason to get in to fixing mode and seeking mode.
I know how it feels. So it is as long as separate, personal self is projected by the mind, or whatever. Keep looking, And whenever possible let the silence do its job.
Now there seems to be this energy active in my body, and the answer to "do I exist in any way or form" seems to point to that, and I'm deconstructing that as well.
Isn't the body also concept for the certain sensations and perceptions?

If I say that „I“ is just a thought what comes up?

Much Love.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:21 pm

Hey again,

Thanks for the response and the encouragement. Yesterday I devoted my meditation to opening up my energy/body/emotions and practicing Loving-kindness towards it by just being open and allowing it to say whatever it needs to, or express itself in any way. I've definitely cleared a lot, and while doing that, I always am searching for any self that is beneath these energies, or that is directing the search for the self itself (lol). So I'm doing my best to cover all bases.
Isn't the body also concept for the certain sensations and perceptions?
The body does seem to be a concept, but it still seems to have more 'reality', in the sense that the sensations felt from the body such as tightness, pain, or emotional-physical energy are much more vivid and stronger than say just a thought, or even a sense of self. So, yes, upon looking at the body, it also does not seem to actually exist, because every time I become aware of the body, different parts are more active than others, and the sensations associated with the body are also different. So in essence, the word "body" is also a concept to put together common sensations and perceptions that seem central and close (which the body seems to be the most central because perceptions that are 'closest' seem to be arise from the body, or are labelled the body).

Okay... I'm starting to get that the inquiry needs to be deconstruct the body as well, and not see the body as another sort of self or container, but also the conglomeration of sensations and perceptions that while may have certain common recurrent patterns, are never the same and are ever changing. I kind of got this intuitively yesterday but you pointing to the body as a concept really expressed that intuition in words for me. Thanks. I guess I will continue the inquiry, and deconstruction any notion of 'body' as well as my regular deconstruction of a 'self'.

What I've already been doing is deconstructing anything that seems to stick, or take my attention, and of course, try to find a self in it. I assume this is the right direction, and will keep going.
If I say that „I“ is just a thought what comes up?
Upon first reading that, there is just a silence. No thoughts, interupt, and the first thing attention goes towards is sensations. Upon deconstructing those to find a self, there is nothing found, and a return to that same silence, and more spaciousness in the 'body' sphere. I have read a few posts and a question they ask is if there is a sense of the personal in what is experienced. I use that to take the inquiry deeper. Then things get lighter and more fluid. Sensations that were once tight also become more flowing and fluid, and a personal sense also seems to disperse like a thick liquid dispersing in to water... or sugar dissolving in to water. But as soon as I start to write to you, like I am now, the sense of a personal awareness comes back, although it seems even more subtle than an actual 'I', but is perhaps is the "I", but just subtler than I'm used to regularly seeing and deconstructing.

I'm going to take this deeper. I did my morning meditation, and will be doing a long walk soon, which is usually when I just walk and inquire within.

Hope you are well,

Much Love.

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby Eloratea » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:37 pm

But as soon as I start to write to you, like I am now, the sense of a personal awareness comes back
Could you describe more accurately this sense of personal awareness. In what way is it personal?

Enjoy your walk and have a relaxed look if there is you doing walking or anything?

Till later,
much Love.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:20 pm

Could you describe more accurately this sense of personal awareness. In what way is it personal?
Well upon response to your trigger "The "I" is just a thought"... silence followed, then body-perception, then a deeper inquiry and a sense of dissolution and flowing outward. A sort of expansion, and deepening of silence, and also a softening of any tightness. When questioned further the sense of a personal awareness started to dissipate in to a sort of spaciousness, and then this sense of the personal seemed to return upon my message to you. So...

The sense of personal awareness I describe seems to be personal because sensations seem to change, particularly an outline and more substantiality in the 'body', so the body feels like a body, and then a sense of self, and these two together seem to make my awareness seem more personal. i guess I take that to be more 'personal', and as such judge it to be less preferable than the clearer sense when my body feels light and transparent. I've been noticing this sort of Preference more and more lately, and find that when there is a preference towards a certain state, which is a sort of dislike towards what-is, then this movement starts, and then the thought "I" usually arises.

So thanks for this question, because I guess even this perception of the awareness being personal is also just that, a perception, and doesn't necessarily mean it's 'personal' at all. I guess I hoped that realizing no-self would mean that those perceptions would 'go away', and lessen. I guess it's a more subtle struggle, that the "I" feeds on.
Enjoy your walk and have a relaxed look if there is you doing walking or anything?
As per the Enlightening quote app, as well as your suggestion, i've been doing this recently, and I can't seem to find any separate self, and if I do I immediately deconstruct. When I first started my walk, I started doing this and I started laughing because there wasn't anything at all... even then tension in the body was vibrating with laughter. The walk was sort of filled with some emotions arising, so it was hard for me to keep digging for a 'self'. So I took time to open to those feelings. I felt sort of exhausted after this, but I kept persisting.

-

I've also been using the App, and I got to the Excercises section.
What keeps it together and operational
What I found was that the self is kept together by a habitual referencing of sensations and perceptions, usually very vivid and strong ones like physical sensations, a sense of me... but it is kept operational by the thought of "I" that arises after the fact. Before that there is just the sensations and perceptions bunched together, and a vying for attention/stickiness/poking... once it gets attention and a thought arises, that thought is usually an "I". So I guess a self is kept operational by a belief that these collection of sensations and perceptions are actually a self. Then what perhaps happens is that these sensations and perceptions draw awareness closer in to them and make them feel more real and solid, and then that solidity is compared to whatever else, such as 'outside' or 'other' and then this process loops over. Anyway, this was good to mull over in my head, and I got it intuitively before, but I didn't articulate it as good as this. This insight seems to be mostly mental, but I think will help with further unfolding. Right now i'm in the midst of family and some heavy sensations, but I will keep asking the key question, "is there a separate self".

Hope your well, and look forward to your further prodding and pointing,

Much Love,

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby Eloratea » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:58 am

Good morning there :)
I've been noticing this sort of Preference more and more lately, and find that when there is a preference towards a certain state, which is a sort of dislike towards what-is, then this movement starts, and then the thought "I" usually arises.
Great that you have seen this. Yes, it is one of the main mechanisms for creating feeling of constriction and being a separate self. It seems to be deeply conditioned.
How does saying: „enlightenment is intimacy with everything“ sound to you?
Here we come back to kind and loving acceptance of all arisings.
As everything is made of awareness, from moment to moment.
So thanks for this question, because I guess even this perception of the awareness being personal is also just that, a perception, and doesn't necessarily mean it's 'personal' at all.
Look how it is/was before it is labeled as personal? Was it than personal or it just was?
I guess I hoped that realizing no-self would mean that those perceptions would 'go away', and lessen. I guess it's a more subtle struggle, that the "I" feeds on.
Actually, labeling and conceptualizing of perceptions will be changed.
The walk was sort of filled with some emotions arising, so it was hard for me to keep digging for a 'self'. So I took time to open to those feelings. I felt sort of exhausted after this, but I kept persisting.
Don't put too much effort in this. Keep it simple :)

So I guess a self is kept operational by a belief that these collection of sensations and perceptions are actually a self. Then what perhaps happens is that these sensations and perceptions draw awareness closer in to them and make them feel more real and solid, and then that solidity is compared to whatever else, such as 'outside' or 'other' and then this process loops over. Anyway, this was good to mull over in my head, and I got it intuitively before, but I didn't articulate it as good as this. This insight seems to be mostly mental, but I think will help with further unfolding.
Good. Just look are those sensations and perceptions - are they self or just that – sensations and perceptions.
Right now i'm in the midst of family and some heavy sensations, but I will keep asking the key question, "is there a separate self".
Have a look at those heavy sensations. What makes them heavy?
Do they belong to anyone? Are they solid or transient, flowing sensations, inherently empty as all phenomena?

You may also find this article generally useful in this investigation:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

With much Love and best wishes.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:41 am

Heya,
How does saying: „enlightenment is intimacy with everything“ sound to you?
This sounds about right to me, and I guess for the past 10 years there has been more of a growing intimacy with what-is, especially the dark-murky-suffering stuff, but lately it's been more intimate because there hasn't been a side i have been taking, such as "the suferer", or "the kind one"... I do my best to notice all of it as it arises with just bare attention, with hints of loving-kindness if indeed it is extra sticky and extra hard.

This also creates some resistance inside of me, because I seem to believe that there is so much 'stuff' inside, that i then conclude that it will take me ages for me to be intimate with everything. i realize that as i say this, this is another resistance to the actual being present with discomfort itself. I have been practicing this last night, in my meditation this morning, and also for the past 1/2 hour just while around my family. As i'm doing this practising of intimacy and just-being with whatever-is, i am also as you have said, gently digging to see if there is self in anything. it seems that the deeper i get, the stickier it gets, even though there is also times of spaciousness and stillness within these sticky times. these deeper things seem to be really restless, uneasy, upset, angry, agitated and highly resistive energies.

A pattern that I have noticed is that a feeling-sensation will arise, such as tightness in my stomach area blended with a heavy feeling like sadness or upset, and then I will realize that what is uncomfortable about it is not actually the feeling itself, but the resistance towards it. the feeling seems to be a sticky dark cloud, and the resistance seems to be hard, jabby, metallic sort of substance that pushes, prods and pokes the first. i hold both in my awareness and dig deeper in to each and they all of course are made of space, or nothingness, or awareness. so, as i have intuitively and theoretically known, it is resistance to what is, not really what is, that is the problem. I am getting this on deeper levels, and instead of even pushing away the resistance, i am doing my best to hold both in just awareness.

The thing that bothers me, is that the process of unearthing issues and anger and omggggg, is just endless. I guess I assumed that there was a short and more direct route through self-inquiry. it seems that this was the case, but there also seems to be a lot of unearthing. i have an intuition, that it will require some unearthing, but dealing with 100% of issues won't be necessary for initial liberation or realization of no-self, but i am definitely feeling overwhelmed with all of this coming up and having to sit silently in a sea of gloom and doom. i guess it's just me feeling a little overwhelmed, but maybe that is a good sign that the inquiry is hitting deeper. just how deep and how much is a question that is definitely on my mind? and what is the line between bathing in endless self-issues and seeing the Truth.
As everything is made of awareness, from moment to moment.
I think I get this, but can you explain further? or is it better for me to experience this for myself without second hand description.
Look how it is/was before it is labeled as personal? Was it than personal or it just was?
The thing is before it was labelled as personal I guess it just felt personal, and in a sense could just be seen as another feeling on top of more sensations. It's only when I question it that it takes a sense of personal, or maybe I just assume because it is 'heavier' and more 'centered' that it is more personal. perhaps a subtle assumption or perception on my part that leads to a sense of the personal?

--- wrote this a few hours after below reply --- sorry for the large gap
Just look are those sensations and perceptions - are they self or just that – sensations and perceptions.
whatever I look at seems to not have any self, and i'm continuing the deconstruction. some sensations are more uncomfortable and such there is a lot of reactivity, but upon going deeper they too dissolve. today was a rather sticky day for me. I've been applying the loving-kindness approach but a lot has come up, specifically very hard (even almost metallic and rusty in perception) in parts of my body - this is like a tightness, but even apparently more 'solid' than tightness. perhaps this relates to older, more structured and heavily ingrained conditioning.

I read that article you sent me, and what I took away from it is that the inquiry should be continued regardless of where one is at, and that all effort on inquiry is useful. he also talked about different paths of inquiry which lead to different aspects of realization.

I guess my question, as I have articulated above, is it just my job to deconstruct endlessly? or is there a specific angle of deconstruction that i should take, as in question inherent self/solidity in what-arises.

so far i have been poking myself with what you have mentionned as well as my own inquiry, so this is like a description of what my process is, in a nutshell:
"you don't exist"
"who am i?"
"who is experiencing this moment?"
"there is no separate self"
"is there a difference between in and out?" "is there any separation?"
--> these all lead to something arising (if not silence), and deconstruction

with whatever arises, i usually have a very determined attitude towards investigation and deconstruction and just bare-attention, also, with a hint of loving-kindness where it is needed (perhaps always?)
Have a look at those heavy sensations. What makes them heavy?
Do they belong to anyone? Are they solid or transient, flowing sensations, inherently empty as all phenomena?
the heavy sensations seem to be opposite to those times where i feel weightless, light and transparent. it seems this is another example of the preference towards certain sensation-perception-states. so these heavy sensations are usually coupled with a sense-of-self, and this is automatically not-preferred and I guess slightly rejected as "oh this is an example of me feeling like a ... ME!". This is I guess what I mean by feeling heavy, as far as I am aware of it so far. I guess I take it as a subtle failure... I do tend to be hard on myself, especially on 'the path'.

in terms of solidity, they are not... they feel 'definite', and i caught myself describing it that way and dug deeper. what i found was they were also flowing and fleeting, but i guess when i compare in the moment, it is much 'less' flowing and fleeting than other feelings. I also just caught myself when I said 'less', and perhaps that is also another concept-label that I need to be aware of. ultimately, as i dig, they all definitely seem empty, but it does require a lot of energy to deconstruct all of it to the point of clarity/emptiness.

the metallic/rusty sort of sensations I was talking about surfaced today. I have experienced this before and have taken them to be deep rooted patterns/conditioning. It was uncomfortable feeling them in my body, but I deconstructed them as well, including the 'body' container-perception. They seem 'harder' to deconstruct as they definitely feel very solid and seem resistant to deconstruction, and under them it feels like vibrating energy, which underneath is also empty.

Again, I will keep deconstructing. I welcome your input, and perhaps some clarification on my process, to make it more direct home-hitting.

Thanks again for the guidance,

Much Love.

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby Eloratea » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:59 am

Hi,
hope you are fine today.
The thing that bothers me, is that the process of unearthing issues and anger and omggggg, is just endless. I guess I assumed that there was a short and more direct route through self-inquiry. it seems that this was the case, but there also seems to be a lot of unearthing. i have an intuition, that it will require some unearthing, but dealing with 100% of issues won't be necessary for initial liberation or realization of no-self.
Really no need to check all the useless stuff. It may be even kind of avoidance of direct facing of the truth.
Seeing that „I“ is just a thought can happen in any instant, and the rest of de-conditionig which need to happen unfolds afterwards more easily.
As everything is made of awareness, from moment to moment.
I think I get this, but can you explain further? or is it better for me to experience this for myself without second hand description.
Actually everything happens through our awareness of it; our perceptions, thinking, feeling, it is all awar-ing. Nothing can be said to be outside of it. And there is neither the subject being aware of something, thought it seems usually that way because it is conventional way of thinking; but it is rather awareness being aware.

http://www.uncoveringlife.com/no-enligh ... the-seeker

Definitely, it needs to be experiential. Kind of contemplation/meditation can be helpful.
Look how it is/was before it is labeled as personal? Was it than personal or it just was?

The thing is before it was labelled as personal I guess it just felt personal, and in a sense could just be seen as another feeling on top of more sensations.
Words like; guess, seems, probable.. denote that it is just intellectual understanding. You need to look and see. Ok?
Stay with feeling, with sensation without labeling it in any way. Even if the labeling happens don't take it too seriously. It is about direct experiencing and by-passing the mind.
Just look are those sensations and perceptions - are they self or just that – sensations and perceptions.

whatever I look at seems to not have any self, and i'm continuing the deconstruction. some sensations are more uncomfortable and such there is a lot of reactivity, but upon going deeper they too dissolve. today was a rather sticky day for me. I've been applying the loving-kindness approach but a lot has come up, specifically very hard (even almost metallic and rusty in perception) in parts of my body - this is like a tightness, but even apparently more 'solid' than tightness. perhaps this relates to older, more structured and heavily ingrained conditioning.

I guess my question, as I have articulated above, is it just my job to deconstruct endlessly? or is there a specific angle of deconstruction that i should take, as in question inherent self/solidity in what-arises.
Your job for now is to check if there is you to begin with, as separate entity behind this word? :)
And to follow your heart, voice of intuition.

the heavy sensations seem to be opposite to those times where i feel weightless, light and transparent. it seems this is another example of the preference towards certain sensation-perception-states. so these heavy sensations are usually coupled with a sense-of-self, and this is automatically not-preferred and I guess slightly rejected as "oh this is an example of me feeling like a ... ME!". This is I guess what I mean by feeling heavy, as far as I am aware of it so far. I guess I take it as a subtle failure... I do tend to be hard on myself, especially on 'the path'.
Don't be too hard. Just look innocently for the truth.

the metallic/rusty sort of sensations I was talking about surfaced today. I have experienced this before and have taken them to be deep rooted patterns/conditioning. It was uncomfortable feeling them in my body, but I deconstructed them as well, including the 'body' container-perception. They seem 'harder' to deconstruct as they definitely feel very solid and seem resistant to deconstruction, and under them it feels like vibrating energy, which underneath is also empty.
You didn't answer my question - do those sensations belong to anyone?
Who is doing the deconstruction? Don't make new identity out of the deconstruction process.
Feel the feelings fully without labeling them as this or that. Just give them some space. And observe.


Much Love.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:28 am

Hey :)

I was much better today. I had more space to dig deep today.

I took a more gentle and direct seeing approach today, instead of a frantic deconstructive approach. I was just constantly looking if there is a self Now, under or behind or controlling whatever i was doing.

I will read that article you sent me afterwards. I wanted to write you before I went on with the rest of my day.
Words like; guess, seems, probable.. denote that it is just intellectual understanding. You need to look and see. Ok?
Stay with feeling, with sensation without labeling it in any way. Even if the labeling happens don't take it too seriously. It is about direct experiencing and by-passing the mind.
Yes, thank you for this. I was noticing my use of 'guess, seems, probable' and half-seeing tendencies in me, and this brought my seeing even deeper. I'm finding a lot of arisings that would make me stop and want to deconstruct them are now just being skipped, and i'm going deeper. this was a relief, especially after yesterday.

Today I believe I made some good progress. I was sitting outside at a building and digging deeper. I was using the Applications question to the "owner". As in take an object, or objects in your life and if there is a "my" or "mine" is attached. I applied this to everything I could think of, even beyond physical objects to relationships, past, future, concepts, ideas, story, etc... and felt a sort of 'personal ownership energy' behind it. I know you advised not to over label, and I didn't, I kept looking within to find substance or solidity and couldn't. I got to a point where things got very still and quiet but noticed a knot in my stomach area. I've got to this before during my meditations. It feels like I am being tickled and I feel like laughing, and i tried to keep prodding it but it seemed like I couldn't get past it, if even there was anything to get past. Maybe I am over-thinking it or making a story out of it, but I just thought I'd mention it. I've noticed this before in my meditations months ago when I was trying to still my mind completely, this came up, and sort of 'didn't let me proceed'. I'm wondering if this is a sign to adjust approach, or just to allow the feeling to be, regardless of how silly and annoyed it makes me. I still sort of feel that feeling now, and upon prodding if there is an owner of the feelings, there is none, just silence, and perhaps a feeling of heat, and upon investigation upon that, there is that same tickly-wanna laugh-itchy feeling in my stomach. HAHA! I wanna go past this but it feels like I am being tickled in to submission!! LOL... and my family is around me, so I will take some time after I finish writing this to go be alone and dig deeper.
Your job for now is to check if there is you to begin with, as separate entity behind this word? :)
And to follow your heart, voice of intuition.
Don't be too hard. Just look innocently for the truth.
Done. I made my job much simpler today. Compared with yesterday there was simple innocent looking, and I kept it as simple as possible, unless it felt I should go in to an arising. It felt much more flowing.
You didn't answer my question - do those sensations belong to anyone?
Who is doing the deconstruction? Don't make new identity out of the deconstruction process.
Feel the feelings fully without labeling them as this or that. Just give them some space. And observe.
I applied this further depth to inquiry and to just looking, just simply noticing if there is a doer, thinker, seer, me. As i said before, it definitely brought more depth to the process, while also making it even more effective (or so it seems) than the frantic approach i took yesterday.

It seems there is a clinging to the more uncomfortable feelings/sensations, but there isn't any clinger or owner. there is just discomfort at digging in to these more uncomfortable sesnations, and somewhat of a resistance to digging deeper.

Feeling the feelings was difficult at first, especially in the morning for me, but then I realize that the more I just give arisings space, experience was much more flowing.

Thanks for the subtle yet very powerful pointers.

I definitely feel a lot more transparent and emptier today. I take this as a sign of progress, but still perhaps not a breakthrough.

This brings me to my final point about physical sensations I have been feeling. I have been feeling them for a few months now ever since I got in to inquiry, and really decided to wake up. I've been yawning a lot, a yearning feeling to yawn! Also tightness in my head, inner ear and sinus areas... it is like that feeling when you are coming down from an airplane, it's like knots loosening, and it makes me feel very spacey and light. I take these to be symptoms of going in the right direction, but i don't over think them nonetheless, just noticing a lot of them, especially since using the App, working with you, and excessively today. So there is sort of an exponential physical loosening as I go deeper - hard to ignore that :P

I also thought that I would mention that there was more resistance from 'me' at digging deeper. The feeling is that 'I am tired and I don't want to go further' - almost like a frustrated and upset child. I will continue looking at this as well. There was also a frustration like 'aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh I wanna explode'! Almost like I just want to rip myself open and let whatever it is free.

There also arose a feeling + thought earlier today that I thought I would mention which was pointing to the fact that I would not be able to achieve this, as well as a sort of a procrastination... a subtle 'it will happen in time, give it time, not now' <--- hard to put this in to words, but this is what it felt like. I tried not to take it seriously and just move on to simple looking.

Upon reflection, I wonder if I am still making a subtle story out of this process of me doing the inquiry and trying to be liberated. Upon checking this there is just a tightness sensation in the chest area, as well another knot in the same above mentioned stomach area. Upon checking if those sensations belong to anyone the sensations loosen and i just seem to feel weightless to the point of wanting to close my eyes. I feel bad for sort of spilling my guts to you, but am just writing from as an honest perspective as I can. I feel a bit overcome, but also it seems that whatever this 'overcomed-by' feeling is, it is a sign of progress.

I will continue to keep my process simple, giving feelings and arising space, and just looking.

Thanks again & look forward to going deeper and hitting gold,

Love.

User avatar
Eloratea
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby Eloratea » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:12 am

I'm finding a lot of arisings that would make me stop and want to deconstruct them are now just being skipped, and i'm going deeper. this was a relief, especially after yesterday.
Good.
I still sort of feel that feeling now, and upon prodding if there is an owner of the feelings, there is none, just silence, and perhaps a feeling of heat, and upon investigation upon that, there is that same tickly-wanna laugh-itchy feeling in my stomach. HAHA! I wanna go past this but it feels like I am being tickled in to submission!! LOL... and my family is around me, so I will take some time after I finish writing this to go be alone and dig deeper.
Let me know what have you found.
And whatever the circumstances are unfolding in the moment there may be recognition of truth. Also when being around the family. You can look through that too.

Feeling the feelings was difficult at first, especially in the morning for me, but then I realize that the more I just give arisings space, experience was much more flowing.
Yes, it is just a flow.
I definitely feel a lot more transparent and emptier today. I take this as a sign of progress, but still perhaps not a breakthrough.
Ok, good. Just don't buy too much into the story of being successful or not. Stay cool ;) and proceed with gentle and innocent inquiry.

I also thought that I would mention that there was more resistance from 'me' at digging deeper. The feeling is that 'I am tired and I don't want to go further' - almost like a frustrated and upset child. I will continue looking at this as well. There was also a frustration like 'aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh I wanna explode'! Almost like I just want to rip myself open and let whatever it is free.
Ok, keep observing; Where all this happens; Give it a space.
There also arose a feeling + thought earlier today that I thought I would mention which was pointing to the fact that I would not be able to achieve this, as well as a sort of a procrastination... a subtle 'it will happen in time, give it time, not now' <--- hard to put this in to words, but this is what it felt like. I tried not to take it seriously and just move on to simple looking.
Just thoughts. You have possibility to question them, not to believe them unconditionally. And to come back always to direct perception in here and now.
Upon reflection, I wonder if I am still making a subtle story out of this process of me doing the inquiry and trying to be liberated. Upon checking this there is just a tightness sensation in the chest area, as well another knot in the same above mentioned stomach area. Upon checking if those sensations belong to anyone the sensations loosen and i just seem to feel weightless to the point of wanting to close my eyes.
Good. Is there you doing this?
I feel bad for sort of spilling my guts to you, but am just writing from as an honest perspective as I can.
It is ok :)
I will continue to keep my process simple, giving feelings and arising space, and just looking.
Good. And leave all the expectations.

With Love.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: On the edge, Requesting a guide for that last push

Postby cosmiK » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:36 pm

Let me know what have you found.
And whatever the circumstances are unfolding in the moment there may be recognition of truth. Also when being around the family. You can look through that too.
Last night in mediation I went really deep, even to the point where for a second it was so quiet and calm that I thought I had achieved, it, but it, whatever it was, only lasted a few minutes, and slowly subsided. However, I got to a point in meditation, where I was simply watching, and then I for some reason decided to take my question as deep as I could. So instead of being still and simply looking at stuff, I looked under the stuff. There I found a spaciousness, a large transparency within my body (it felt centered 'within'). There I found nothing, and for once, the responses to my question weren't silence, there were 'no, there is noone there'. Everything that arose was almost instantaneously seen as just that, just arisings, and a flowing flow of arisings. It came to the point that almost nothing was arising, and there was just a space, or it was that there was no sense of watching arisings, it was just a spacious flow with a few tiny waves. I don't remember the state clearly, as memory of any 'higher' experience I have is not accurately remembered (like coming out of a dream, or back in to one rather!), but it definitely was very spacious and clear with almost no content. it also didn't even make sense to inquire whether there was a self. I kept checking though and for a while I couldn't find anything, and nothing seemed to be banging up against me. It faded after about 10 minutes and I went to bed.

So basically what I did was looking 'behind' it all, or as 'deep' as I could and all there is was space. Like you said, under all the layers there is emptiness. That was my simple and clear experience yesterday. I continued this morning, but a lot of old sticky and uncomfortable stuff came up. I tried to get 'under' it like I did last night, but I felt like I was digging up a grave. It felt like old Karma, so I just sat with it and gave it space.

Is taking the inquiry 'to the bottom', or looking at the 'core' and seeing there is nothing (as I have done above) a better entry point, or is it just another part of the process. As in, before I would just be still and look at arisings to see if it was evidence of or self itself, but last night I just skipped it all and checked if there was anything 'underneath'. Perhaps it is good to stick with what feels right and appropriate based on intuition.

In terms of what you said about at any moment there may be recognition of Truth, it seems as though no matter how many times I find nothing being there, there continues to be momentum. Sort of like endless layers. So what is the difference between actual permanent recognition which destroys the illusion once and for all, and these little mini-realizations that I am having? Or perhaps the question is useless, and the inquiry just keeps to need happening.
Ok, keep observing; Where all this happens; Give it a space.
Thank you for this. "Where does all of this happen" or "In what does all of this occur" seems to add more dimension and depth to the inquiry. I will use this more.
Good. Is there you doing this?
I am checking this after the fact, so today instead of yesterday, but it just seems to make me feel fidgety and sort of anxious-laughy. Brings me close to some completely irrational giggle, as if I am being tickled, this time the feeling is not in my stomach but in my shoulder area. It almost seems as if I am guarding the truth, and holding it down, but what is holding it down is perhaps the assumption of self itself? <-- just a curious theory... wondering what is so funny? I seem to want to avoid the question, and move about, not be still... perhaps because it is a little noisy in this study lounge, or that i am avoiding deeper inquiry.
>>I'll take 5 minutes to look into it now>>
- *more giggles, anxious giggles
- "is there anything under? is there anything controlling all of this? is there a final 'me' behind all of this?"
- deeper and deeper silence
- clearer and more refined/cleaner experience
- "anything under that?" "is there any evidence of a me"
> thought-response: "there is evidence of being stuck in illusion"
- "anything under that"
- *more gigglish anxiety* + tension in the body (but much lighter and clearer)
- "is there a me doing this?"
- *laugh/shake head*
- "who is doing the digging?" (this seems to create a full-circle awareness, which makes me realize there still seems to be momentum doing the digging, and some subtle identification with it)
- deeper and deeper stillness + subtler and subtler movement
- a resistance "i don't want to let go, i don't want to let go of control" -- " did you ever have control? " -- dismanting of this as well...
- feeling of everything happening on it's own - feeling, seeing, hearing, noticing, arisings...
- subtler resistance to letting go, still anxious-itchy-giggly feelings,
- there is a constant movement (even inquiry and asking questions, the exertion of intention), and subtle identification with this movement, and then a questioning of who is moving, and then a gradual subsiding... again a full-circle awareness seemingly canceling itself out

Okay, I've been doing this for about 15 minutes. I thought I would send it out and see if I can get some feedback from you.

Thanks again, and hope things on your end are well

Love,


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest