who else wants to find an exit sign?

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Ilona
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who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:41 pm

come in, don't be shy. bring all you've got for an inspection.
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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Lianna » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:03 am

Yes, please, I really want to find that sign, and pass through the gate.

This my first post in this forum, and it is a bit scary to write it.
I know I am ready, but it feels like a big thing to say that out loud and clear.

First I thought I would have to wait with this until I had enough time to really dive into it, but yesterday I read in one of the threads, that to post about once a day, would be enough. And that I should be able to manage, so maybe I don't have to put it off any longer, after all.

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who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:34 am

The time is always now.

Great to have you here and yes, we can take small steps, as small as it feels comfortable.

Let's start today from your expectations. Make a long detailed list of what you expect liberation to be, what it would do for you, what it should be like.

Just write all of it out. :)
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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Lianna » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:12 am

Great, thank you! Let's start!

This is not exactly a list, but this is what I came up with right now.

What my long search boils down to is that I want the truth. No matter what.
On one level, I really have no other expectations, except what comes naturally out of that truth.

On another level, of course there are hopes for what it will be like to really finally get it.

First of all, I expect to actually be sure that I have got it for real.
I realized more than a year ago that there is no proof for a ”Lianna-me” running the show in here. I feel, like many, that I have an intellectual understanding, that I can see the gate, but not pass through it. I hope to know for sure when I have actually passed through.

And then I hope for some kind of freedom, and relaxation. A slight change of perspective, a clearness.

And I expect that this everyday life will go on, much as usual, but with more lightness to it. Less serious, more of just being along for the ride, no matter where it takes me.

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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:32 pm

That is great, Lianna. you seem very ripe and ready.

the next step would be to see exactly where you are. so what comes up when you let this thought in:
there is no separate being 'me' at all in real life.

write what thoughts and feelings come up here.
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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Lianna » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:47 am

The first that came up when I read your question was a feeling of excitement.
There is no separate being ”me” at all in real life! Wow! It is just an illusion, sort of a misunderstanding. A castle built on sand, or rather on nothing. Relief!

I can sense that this is true. But I can't say that I know it for sure.
It still feels like there is a “me” in this body. I believed for so many years that it was so. That there is this self or soul or whatever, that I am, that is ”mine” and that is holding things together, owning the story, being responsible for good and bad choices. That is looking out through the eyes.

But the fact that I believed it for a long time, doesn't mean that it is true. And it feels very right to question this ancient belief.

So I look – where is this me, what is it – and when I try to focus on it, it sort of peels away, or dissolves. I look and look and I can't find an actual “me”. Just thought after thought. But whose thoughts are they? Where do they come from? I always assumed they were ”mine”. But if I can't find the owner, how could they be mine? They are just there, coming and going. This body. Thoughts. Feelings. Things seen, heard, felt. What is it all?

I have glimpses of no-me. But the “me” keeps coming back. The habit of this illusion is so strong. How to break it? And how to move from intellectualizing about it to actually knowing it?

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who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:40 am

You are doing great!
Yes, where do thoughts come from? Can you have a look and answer this.
Also, do you control thoughts?
Can you know what the next thought will be? Can a thought be cut in half? Is thought 'me' any different from other thoughts? Can a thought think?

Just have a look at thought and tell me what you find.
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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Lianna » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:02 pm

Thank you, great but difficult questions!

Where do thoughts come from.. I am trying to really look... They seem to just appear, take form. I have always thought that they were mine, and that I make them happen. But do I?

Is it more like an ”I-thought” claims them just after the fact. Like with other actions. I can not actually see that it is ”I” that makes a choice to act. It happens, and then milliseconds afterwards I claim that I chose what had already happen. That I see clearly when I really look.

Do I control them? It might seem like that. Now when I think about this specific topic, when I try to answer your question, it seems like I focus my thoughts on this topic. Sit down and concentrate on this. But the thoughts, taken one by one, seem to just appear in this space of awareness here. No, I cant control them, and I cant really say what thought will come next. They seem to come on their own. ”I” do not form them.

The ”me” thought. I am ”me”. I am Lianna. That is a thought too. Just a thought. Thoughts carry the "me", build the me, tell the stories about this me... If ”me” is a thought.... if the idea of a separate self is a thought. Just any other thought. Seems like that is the case.

Can a thought be cut in half? No, it seems now that since a thought just appears, what appears is the thought. There is no such thing as half a thought.

For that to be possible there would need to be a me controlling it. And even though I always thought that was the case, this control of thoughts cannot be found. They actually just seem to happen. The idea of being in control, of choosing thoughts, seems to be an illusion. Just like the idea that I actually choose for example, if I will lift my left or right hand from the keyboard next. I think right-left-rigt-left. And then a hand lifts. Not a contolled choice, it happens, and then afterwards there is an illusion created, that this was the choice made by the ”me”.
Same with thoughts.

Can a thought think? No, a thought is just a thought, not a thinker But then, what is doing the thinking, if the thoughts just appear? There is some kind of key in this appearance of thoughts. It is now very clear that they just appear. And that it is an after conctruct that ”I” made them happen.
But the moment after I write this, I sort of loose it again. There is this really strong condition, to see the thoughts as ”mine”, to see them as what defines ”me”. Only when I really look I can see that this is not the case. But the ”seeing” of it doesn't seem to stay. On the other hand, it doesn't really go away either... Weird.

So, here is the conlusion of this all too long rant:

Thoughts just appear. I do not control them. I do not know what next thought will be. A thought is always a thought, and cannot be cut i half. The me-thought is just a thought, appearing and disappearing like every other thought. And a thought cannot think.

This is what I find. There are millions of thoughts that want to contradict it. Complicate it. Hold on to old beliefs. But that doesn't change the main fact. Thoughts just appear.

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who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:36 am

I enjoyed reading this. You are really taking time to properly look. I appreciate that.

Ok, so let's look at a next little stop. Labels and labelling process. It's one of the functions of the mind- labelling experience after it happens. A narrative of the story as it is seen.

Examine different kinds of labels.
1. Words that point to things that are, for example - table, chair, monitor, hand

2. Words that are labels for communication purposes, like 'university'. There is no university, but there is a concept that points to buildings, rooms, computers, books, people, studying etc.
3. Words that point to imaginary stuff, characters, like Santa, batman, Lianna. these can never be found in real life. Just in imagination.

Look around the room and notice how labelling kicks in, see which labels belong to which of these groups.

What kind of labels are I/ me/ self?
Is there anything behind those labels?
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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Lianna » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:24 pm

First of all – reading lable type 3, and finding my “name” there caused a strange reaction. Like a wave of heat and cold through my body. Resonance. This is true, I thought. Lianna (by Lianna I mean, the “me-self”) is an imaginary character.

But back to work…labels. Yes –
Cateogry 1 and 2 seem similar, labels that point to things that can actually be experienced. Only of different complexity. They are just labels, arising after the experience of for example the table.

Category 3 - these examples (except maybe my name) seem to be labels for imagninary things, that mind knows to be imaginary. Does the self belong to this category?
Not quite, self seems to belong to a sub category of number 3 . Labels for things that are imagninary, but that the mind believes to be real. Labels for things that explain stuff that seem to happen, by sort of personalizing them. For example: angels, souls, god, self.

Self is a seemingly obvious and generally agreed upon label. But I can see that it doesn't hold up for inspection, can't actually be found. I seems to be a mind-made up personification of this body and it's story. Is this really so? It is revolutionary!

The me-label keeps popping up here. My son, my flat, my job. Really strong labels, and a strong feeling of “home” and “mine” and familiarity attached to them. To remove the idea of s self is... I don't know... scary, feels like free falling or soaring without control, scary and exhilirating at the same time. I still feel like this "old me", and yet I don't quite believe in me any more.

What is behind the label, you also asked. Not easy to answer. Can only say that what is behind seems to be the same “place” where the thoughts just appear.

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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:46 pm

beautiful.. let's proceed further:
Labels for things that are imaginary, but that the mind believes to be real.
this is the confusion that we are looking to resolve in the mind. Mind believes that there is something behind the label 'me' and when you looked you already saw that there is nothing there, same space from where thoughts come up. it just didn't click yet. so me is nothing else but a thought.

ok, now have a look from another angle; Identity. there is Identity with Lianna, an imaginary character. can you look right at her and see the beauty of this creation. can you tell me what drives the character, considering thoughts, feelings and story line. can you see that the play is going on and can you look if there is an actor in there. when looked from another persona's views, is it same character?
What do you find?
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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Lianna » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:19 pm

Thank you so much, Ilona! I am really happy about this way of doing it. So far I have had one question to work with each day. In the morning, when I get to work I open the forum to find your new question. And during the workday, I turn it over in my head whenever possible, and write down thoughts about it.

The imaginary character Lianna… yeah, I know her well. I have actually been trying to look at her like you suggest on and off for quite a while, and I can see the beauty in the creation. I feel great warmth for her!

What drives Lianna? There is a lot to say about that, and a lot that could be said about her story and her conditioning. She used to be very driven by the need to fit in, be liked, be normal, be accepted and to do things right. But for years now her primary drive is to be honest in her life and to find truth. She tries to simplify her life, to cut down on things not necessary, or things she is not interested in doing. She tries to find her own way in this, and not listen too much to the surroundings, but she also still has a need to be accepted. She is very focused on her son, and on having at truthful relationship with him.

She is not always the same, she plays different parts at different times, and it is very hard now actually see that the Lianna of now is the same character as Lianna at 16 years of age. So much have changed, even though the storyline is intact and can be traced back all the way.

When she was young she used to believe in a soul that was developing and in reincarnation and stuff. But later on in her story she has come to realize that her specific storyline will end when this body dies. She has also come to understand that she is probably an imaginary character, and does not really exist as at separate person. Lots of her focus now is on trying to actually get this. It has implications in her life. Things that seemed painful or heavy earlier, have become not so painful and lighter. Earlier in her life this she used to take her own life very seriously, think very deeply about it, and like to discuss feelings and stuff at lengths. Not so much anymore. On the other hand things that used to interest her, don’t any more, and sometimes that makes her feel empty and lonely and a bit lost.

I used to believe that I really was this character. But the thing is, writing this I realize that I don’t believe in that anymore. There is now a distance to Lianna, an ability so see that Lianna is not really me, but sort of just going on here. But at the same time it feels like I am her, trapped in her body and her lifestream. Weird, and hard to explain.

But no way could I go back to actually believing one hundred percent in this character. I do not quite know where that leaves me yet. I am playing this character in this life. It is fun, it is hard, it is boring it is painful, whatever. I am not equivalent with Lianna. But what am I then?

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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:40 pm

But no way could I go back to actually believing one hundred percent in this character. I do not quite know where that leaves me yet. I am playing this character in this life. It is fun, it is hard, it is boring it is painful, whatever. I am not equivalent with Lianna. But what am I then?
great answer. but let's have a look a bit closer. you say that you are playing this character. is it true?
can it be that there is no manager for the character and story is playing out by itself? ifyou were the actress, wouldn't you be able to choose the role and ajust it to your liking?

have a look at a child, is there an actor in there? or a cat, it's got prefereces and certain behaviour,but does it need a driver?

so have a look at what is the mechanism that is driving the character and story. is there a need for manager/ controler? is there a function for 'me' in there? what comes up?

when you say that you are not equivalent to Lianna, what is that I?
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Re: who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Lianna » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:55 pm

Your questions are spot on… and they are getting harder to answer.

I get that I am supposed to realize that there is no actor/controller, but this is for some reason harder to see, harder to really look at. At first I didn't know where to start, I just felt stuck.

But then I reread this thread, and when I came back to your questions now, it was suddenly obvious that there is not another kind of "me", an actress, controlling the imaginary me-Lianna. Like you say, if there were it would be possible to adjust the role to m y liking, and that is not the case. This is not a case of mistaken identity (like I am not Lianna I am the actress), it is a case of no-identity, if that makes sense. Or maybe this is just a play with words. I dont't know. In one way i really see this, when I focus on it. But when I lose focus, I fall back into habitual seeing again.

If I look at your last question: "When you say that you are not equivalent to Lianna, what is that I ?"Looking at that is easier. What I see here is that this "I" is nothing but that place where thoughts appear, I wrote about before, that no-place. And from that place... no,no controller to be seen, couldn't be.

Hmmm, still a bit messy this.. feel a need to look more deeply into it!

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who else wants to find an exit sign?

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:00 pm

Very close. But I is not a place where thoughts appear. I is a thought. It appears and disappears by itself. Only it may seem that I is the driver of thought train. There is no driver.

If you look at a cloud passing by and imagine that the front bit is the I, does that make I a driver?



Look for yourself.
Thoughts are passing by effortlessly. Including the I thought and me thought...
Truth realized will set you free.
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