Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here

[odemira]

Hi and welcome to Liberation Unleashed,

If you want to see the non-existence of what you think of as yourself, and are willing to do the looking, then welcome. Just respond to this post, and I'll guide you where to look.

with love
Odemira

[Chris7]

Hi Odemira

I am certainly looking for a guide and would very much apprciate your help. What do I need to do next? Only joined today but eager to get started.

Chris

[jackalpacafish]

Hello,

I am sooo ready to explore this process but have not had any luck with responses to date.

I hope this is the proper protocol as I have been chastised already for intruding.

Anyway, I am hoping to hear from you soon.

jack

[odemira]

Hi Chris and Jack,
Happy to guide you both but Jack I'll start a fresh thread for you, ok. So reply to that one unless you've already found another guide, ok?

cheers
Odemira

[odemira]

Hi Chris,

This is your thread, Jack has another one of his own.

Can you start by telling me a bit about you:
1. What are you wanting by being here?
2. What do you expect to happen?
3. If you become 'liberated', what do you think that will give you that you don't have now?
4. Tell me where you think the 'self' is, and where you are clear it isn't.

Thanks! That will help me see where you are and where to point you.

with love
Odemira

[Chris7]

Hi Odemira

First of all can I thank you for giving your time in this way, I very much appreciate it.
I don’t know if you’re interested in this part of my background but in case it helps here it is: I am English and live in England and my journey here today started when, as a fifteen year old during a lesson at school, I wondered as I looked at my friend’s hand as it rested close to mine on the desk what made him be him and me be me (and I don’t mean biologically). Since then I have spent many years (on and off) trying to find the answer through psychology, spirituality and Buddhism. I have read many books and continue to do so. I never felt I quite got to the place where I could say ‘that’s it.’ About six months ago quite by accident I came across batgap.com and nevernothere.com and was excited as I watched the interviews of this subject they call non-duality and thought ‘that’s it.’ I then began reading books about this subject and my desire to “know” what this is rather than simply know intellectually has become an increasingly relentless drive and incessant desire within me. I have tried to pull back from it and get on with my life but It’s as though I’m in its grip and it wont let go. I have never been to satsang or on retreat or had a teacher or guide in any form.

I’m hoping by being here to cross the line between knowing and “knowing” and am prepared/committed to fully make the leap.

I expect to be challenged and supported in searching within to find my own way over the line or through the gate.

If I become liberated I don’t particularly expect it to give me anything I don’t already have but that it will take away the blocks to liberation and hopefully satisfy the continual seeking that permeates my life and takes up so much of my thoughts, time and energy in its pursuit. And hopefully save me a bit of money on buying books. :-)

I have tried to find the self and am unable to other than as a physical location in time and space operating as a biological computer with its complex programming, genetic dispositions, and memories, thoughts and concepts. However, this is only apparent at certain times when I’m in that zone. It feels more of an intellectual understanding most of the time. I also would dearly like to be able to experience oneness rather than separateness.

Looking forward to your guidance,

Chris

[odemira]

Hi Chris
and thanks for telling me your story. I'm English too :)

I have tried to find the self and am unable to

Yes! You won't be able to 'cos it doesn't exist, never has existed. Let's start deconstructing the ways that you feel it does exist.

a physical location in time and space operating as a biological computer with its complex programming, genetic dispositions, and memories, thoughts and concepts.

Yes, there is the appearance of a body and a mind as you describe. The question for us to get clear on is whether 'you' exist within/as that body and mind.

So spend some time looking at these questions. By looking, I mean observe as if you were conducting a scientific experiment on the subject of the body/mind of the man known as Chris. Watch what happens, notice how 'you' operate. OK?

1. Are you the body?
2. Are you the thoughts?
3. Does the body need a 'you' for it to function, to control it?
4. Do your thoughts need a 'you' for them to happen?
5. If the answer is yes for any of these, we'll explore that further in the next posts. If the answer is no, where else do you think or feel the 'I' resides?

Happy looking!
with love
Odemira

[odemira]

Hi Chris,

Forgot to mention before, we have a few 'rules' here which help the process of seeing through the illusion of the self work better and faster:

1. Post here at least once per day, that keeps the momentum going.
2. Be 100% honest in your replies. I want you every time to tell me what you directly experience and not what you know.
3. While we're working together, can you stop watching satsangs, reading etc? It will be a hindrance rather than a help. More knowledge is not going to help here, come with a 'beginner's mind', ok?

Are you ok with these?
Odemira

[Chris7]

Hi Odemira

Absolutely. I am willing to do whatever it takes and will do as you ask. I intend to be honest as this is surely the best way for you to help me and for me to get the greatest benefit. I will also not rely on any prior knowledge but come in a nature of innocence as much as I can. I will certainly post at least once a day. I’m glad you mentioned that because I was a little unsure of how long you expected me to reflect on any questions and was a little afraid of appearing to be rushing the process in my impatience to force this through.

Although I have contemplated questions such as those you pose in one to four many times before and have revisited them now in the way you recommended and I cannot find a ‘me’ in them. I know I’m not my thoughts as they are as changeable as the good old English weather. And if my body needed a ‘me’ for its functioning I would have been dead a long time ago.

But answering the last question ‘where do I think/feel an ‘I’ resides’ now that’s the sticky bit. I feel there is a me that owns my body and witnesses my thoughts and there is a me that is seeking liberation and that same me is in communication with you at the moment. Although I can’t locate it it feels as if it is an all pervasive presence.

I also wonder why there is a burning desire for liberation that comes up against a block if there isn’t a me somewhere who is working towards it and having to battle the not-me of conditioning etc. for example a rain cloud doesn’t have to battle with itself in order to burst through.

I hope this makes sense to you

Chris

[odemira]

Hi Chris,

Absolutely. I am willing to do whatever it takes and will do as you ask. I intend to be honest as this is surely the best way for you to help me and for me to get the greatest benefit. I will also not rely on any prior knowledge but come in a nature of innocence as much as I can.

Excellent!! You're helping yourself with this attitude.

Although I have contemplated questions such as those you pose in one to four many times before and have revisited them now in the way you recommended and I cannot find a ‘me’ in them.

No, you won't ever be able to find a 'me' - but right now you 'feel' there is one. We need to look at how that 'feeling' is created. Once you're clear on how that happens, then we can look at the way that the feeling of the self as an 'Owner of the body', 'Witnesser of thought', 'Liberation seeker' and 'Communicater' is being generated.

I want you to conduct some experiments, focused on each of your senses in turn. Spend some time noticing in great detail what happens, and post it here. You're looking to notice the sequence of what's happening in your brain - do you see something and then a thought arises? Or is the other way around? Or is something else happening? Do feelings appear in the sequence of what's happening?

Happy looking!
with love
Odemira

[Chris7]

Hi Odemira

I hope I’ve understood what you’re asking correctly.

Hearing: As each sound is heard I notice there is labeling sometimes very obvious at others more subtle. For example, a very loud droning noise could be heard and the label came of a low flying aircraft. This immediately turned into a running commentary of what this could mean and at one point even wondered as the sound got closer and louder that it could be an aircraft in danger and it might actually be about to crash-land and as this fantasy projection began to play out my noticing ended it.
With every sound I heard a labeling was immediately placed on it sometimes with a running commentary and/or a judgment.

The above aircraft brought in the sense of sight as I searched the sky and it came into view. The searching the sky was more a natural response that a focused directing. Upon seeing it I realized it didn’t appear to be in danger nor was it as low as I had imagined. Labeling continued followed by a childlike amazement how these things fly followed by a running commentary and wondering about where it was going who was on board etc.
Also watching football on TV labeling and judgments galore.

I was mowing the lawn during part of this exercise and the smell of cut grass was pleasant and immediately labeled as such and as a nice aroma this was in contrast to the smell of smoke as it came from a neighboring garden which I labeled nasty and a running commentary developed whereby I felt increasing anger/frustration at the neighbour's ignorance and lack of concern to be burning garden rubbish during the day when people had washing out drying and families were out in their gardens enjoying the good weather which has been a rarity on a weekend this summer.

Having my Sunday roast was another example of labeling but this time a thought occurred before sensory perception of expectation of enjoyment and the prospect of satisfying my hunger. This experience called on all the senses at the same time there wasn’t much labeling going on just enjoyment and some pride in lovely tasting gravy I had made. But with the doors and windows open and with each sound of either a voice or a car pulling up or moving away a label popped into to my head.

The conclusion being that each time a sensory organ is triggered a label immediately pops up often followed by a judgment and internal commentary. For example, ‘that bloody alarm going off again, it’s got to be number twelve’s alarm. I wished they’d get something done about it. What a horrible sound they make. I wouldn’t mind if it was a genuine trigger but everyone ignores it now so even if they were being burgled no one would know because we’ve all stopped checking.’

I hope this is the sort of feedback you were looking for.

Chris

[odemira]

Hi Chris,

I hope I’ve understood what you’re asking correctly.

Yes indeed you have. Excellent observation of 'yourself', Chris. This is what we mean here by 'direct experiencing'.

The conclusion being that each time a sensory organ is triggered a label immediately pops up often followed by a judgment and internal commentary.

Yes exactly. The mind has evolved to work out what objects/perceptions are and to give them a label, a name. Very handy for telling the difference between a sabre tooth tiger and a tree, and then telling your family to run!

this fantasy projection began to play out

Yes, if you read your observations again, can you see that in each one there were the sounds, sights, smells, which were real, then thoughts were automatically triggered, which were real thoughts, but the content of the thoughts can be fantasies, stories?

Do 'you' trigger the sense organs?
Do 'you' do the labelling, judging and commentating, the story telling?

Here's the next set of observations for you to do:

Does your body need 'you' to direct it?
Or does it operate automatically?
Does the same process of labelling, judging and commentating happen with body movements?

Happy looking!
with love
Odemira

[Chris7]

Hi Odemira

No, I don't trigger the sense organs they are automatically triggered.

I do not do the labelling, judging or commentating, they appear to be automatic also.

'Does your body need 'you' to direct it?'
This was a really fascinating realisation that it actually moves all by itself. The only sticking point here is for example I get an itch and scratch but it feels like an 'I' can interrupt this automatic process and delay this urge. Also when the alarm goes off to wake me for work (I hate my job) my body and mind automatically want to go back to sleep (reality) until 'I' override that and make my mind and body get up. (If I (Chris) chose to allow my mind/body to go back to sleep then it is I who suffers the consequences as in potentially losing my job and as a consequence my home etc.).

'Or does it operate automatically?' I would say automatically most definitely.

'Does the same process of labelling, judging and commentating happen with body movements?'
Not to the same degree but there is some as in: my foot hurts when I bang it, or I have headache etc. etc. Commentating also can happen with things such as I should do less reading and more exercise my body is getting out body is out of shape. This is where it feels 'I' can come in and control whether or not I do one or the other.

The reason I am mentioning above that there is an 'I' that can control certain things is not because I can find an 'I' but because this is where the glue is for me.

Chris

[odemira]

Hi Chris,

Great observations again!

No, I don't trigger the sense organs they are automatically triggered. I do not do the labelling, judging or commentating, they appear to be automatic also.

Yes, completely automatic. Stimulus/sense organ > thought (label) > thought (judgement) > feeling > thought etc etc.

Keep noticing how this is all that is happening in a continuous process. When you're clear on that, move on to the next step below.

Let's look at the labelling process. Remember, the mind has evolved to automatically label everything. So if what is seen is a cup, then the word 'cup' is used. Spend some more time noticing this process happening. With everything I say, check it out for yourself, it's that direct experiencing of it that brings clarity. When you're clear on how the labelling process operates, move on to the next step below.

You have looked for an I and can't find it. And you won't because it is not there except as a label. Seeing happens, the thought arises 'I am seeing'. 'You' are the label. Check this out for yourself.

'Does your body need 'you' to direct it?' This was a really fascinating realisation that it actually moves all by itself.

Yes, it doesn't need a non-existent self to direct it.

I get an itch and scratch but it feels like an 'I' can interrupt this automatic process and delay this urge. Also when the alarm goes off to wake me for work (I hate my job) my body and mind automatically want to go back to sleep (reality) until 'I' override that and make my mind and body get up.

You've noticed that there's an automatic process happening - Stimulus/sense organ > thought (label) > thought (judgement) > feeling > thought etc . The itch = stimulus/sense organ, delaying of scratching = body response, 'I can delay this scratching'= thought (labelling). Can you look at the alarm clock example in the same way and see what's going on?

The reason I am mentioning above that there is an 'I' that can control certain things is not because I can find an 'I' but because this is where the glue is for me.

So look and see that 'I' is only a word, a label.

Let me know how you get on with all of this, take your time.

Happy looking!
with love
Odemira

[odemira]

Hi Chris,

How's it going? I know I said take your time to focus on the observations..... and it's helpful to you to post daily as it keeps the focus steady. But of course life can decide otherwise, I know.

with love
Odemira