In need of a guide and clear seeing

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KateChristine
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In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:44 am

Hi, my name is Kate and I'm 35 years old. I've been seeking for what seems to be a long time now, without really knowing for what, if I'm honest - it seems to change, isn't that weird? I think I'm ready to set aside the books and the teachings now, to stop listening to the experience of various teachers around the globe because while they've been mostly beautifully helpful, I feel I'm at risk of allowing the seeking to become a purpose in itself. There are flashes of insight, flashes of clarity and pure experience, but it doesn't last. I would like to see clearly what really is for myself, even if that means that I realise there is no self, which I have to admit, scares the crap out of little me. There seems to be something holding on to this for dear life. And yet, it is possible that this too is another concept. If there is someone who feels they would like to pick up this thread, I'd be very grateful.

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nonaparry
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby nonaparry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:03 am

Hi KateChristine. Good start. Let's proceed.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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nonaparry
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby nonaparry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:07 am

Will you agree to post at least once every day and to answer my questions with 100% honesty?
If you are ready to look with 100% honesty, we can begin.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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KateChristine
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:14 am

Hi there,
I can say yes to the once a day post and yes to doing my best with 100% honesty.

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KateChristine
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:16 am

Oh, and I almost forgot my manners ;-) Thank you.

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nonaparry
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby nonaparry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:24 am

:-D

Let us begin by addressing any expectations, hopes, desires you have about our dialogue. What do you think 'should' happen as a result of your seeing there is no separate self?

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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KateChristine
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:47 am

As far as expectations go, hmm, right at this very moment, I am not quite sure. I feel pretty open. I know how I have felt about it in the past, wanting some massive life changing revelation in terms of light and love and oneness, but I think I am realising that while this may or may not happen, I may be missing the point. I would like to find out. I want to say that I'd like to find my highest truth, something that is constant and unchanging, regardless of how I may 'feel' about it. I am hoping that the pointers you give me and the questions you ask will lead me to a place of such clarity that I won't be able to mistake it for anything other than what is true.

And as far as 'shoulds' go, what might happen when/if I see that there is no seperate self, well at the moment I cannot quite imagine what that would be like and I guess that this 'unknown' is what I am finding a bit frightening. I am drawn to the concept, but cannot honestly say that I have had a direct experience, perhaps of anything in my life. There is always the sense of a veil between myself and reality.

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nonaparry
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby nonaparry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:57 am

What is it about seeing there is no self that "scares the crap out of" you?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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KateChristine
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:11 am

Good question, Nona. I have several responses that come to mind. I think I'm quite fond of myself and I can't quite imagine that I am not real, that all the stories that surround that sense of identity may not mean anything. If it is all an illusion then what is real? I am afraid that if I see that there is no self nothing will matter anymore. I am afraid of losing myself, of going insane, of floundering. However, when I really really look at that, I cannot find a reason that holds up. I can tell myself that there is probably nothing to be afraid of and yet the fear remains. Fear of the unknown? Fear of the unidentifiable?

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nonaparry
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby nonaparry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:29 am

I am afraid that if I see that there is no self nothing will matter anymore.
Good. And does anything "matter" NOW?
I am afraid of losing myself, of going insane, of floundering.
Good! There is no 'you' to lose, to 'go insane', to flounder. None. No you at all.
yet the fear remains. Fear of the unknown? Fear of the unidentifiable?
Look directly at the fear. Stare it in the face. What is it protecting? What does it prevent you from doing/seeing?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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KateChristine
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:25 pm

Hi there Nona,

Well, I've spent some time with this and I feel a bit stumped actually. The response to your first question was hugely reassuring. No, of course, nothing "matters" NOW. When I allow myself to be in the present moment, fully present with it, then there is no fear at all. I am and that's it and it's wonderful. And this is precisely where I got a bit stuck (if that's actually the case, I'm not so sure). I can't seem to go into the fear because as soon as I 'look' at it, it goes away! I am guessing that it may be simply because I am so still, watching, unattached, that there's actually no reason for it to be there. Or it may be hiding very cleverly, I don't know. It's like chasing a speck in your eye! I am used to asking questions and waiting for a response, and this has been pretty fool proof up till now, but with the questions regarding what is it protecting and what does it prevent me from doing or seeing, absolutely nothing came. I mean nothing. A blank, a silence, nada. Could this fear really be THAT hollow?
A strange thing kept happening today, in between the enquiring. There was a kind of, I don't know how to describe it, like a 'whooshing' sensation. I would look at something, like a tree or a table, whatever, and there came a pulling into it, as if I was physically moving towards it, or falling. That's more like it. It was as if I was falling. As it happened several times I noticed that it provoked the fear. I would suddenly think, whoah, and it would stop. Then as I tried to look at the fear, it too disappeared and that was the end of it.
Hah! I've just asked the question again and this time a response came. The fear is protecting illusion...
Isn't that crazy! So I guess, if it is protecting illusion (a sense of seperation/seperate self?) then it is preventing me from seeing that there is no seperate self. Bloody hell. Now that for me is pretty mind boggling.

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nonaparry
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby nonaparry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:44 pm

The fear is protecting illusion... it is preventing me from seeing that there is no seperate self.
Yes. Good noticing!! It's fear's job to protect us!
Could this fear really be THAT hollow?
Yes, of course. The thought is real; its content is imaginary.
as I 'look' at it, it goes away!
Exactly. Fear is just a thought; an electrical disturbance in mind.
Like 'self'.

Where do 'your' thoughts come from? What has them arise? Can you control them at all?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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KateChristine
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:26 pm

Ok, so I've been observing this thought phenomenon. If I ignore the content of the thoughts, I really don't know where they come from. They seem to arise spontaneously out of 'nothing'. Is that possible? Sometimes there is an interior spaciousness and sometimes there is a thought. One moment there is a silence and the next there is a thought. If I look at the content of them then I can start saying well, this leads to this, which leads to that, which leads to this, etc. But where the 'first' thought that I had about 'something' came from, well... ??? There can be a thought that is directly related to something I am doing, or something that I see or smell for example, which reminds me of such and such, so there are some that come from sensorial information, or memories. But there are others that seem totally random. As for the control of them, well, once they are there I do seem to have some kind of influence. However, that influence is on content and not on whether or not they are there. I can, for example, seem to influence what I think about a thought :-) I can also observe what happens in my body with different types of thoughts. But that's more to do with feeling. A so called positive thought will open things up and a so called negative thought will close things down. I can control that, or rather, I can change how I feel about a thought. Obviously the more I try not to think, the opposite happens and a tension appears in my body. Also, I can 'focus' on the spaciousness where there is no thought, but I cannot tell myself to think. There needs to be some kind of stimulus.
Something you said intrigued me.
Fear is just a thought; an electrical disturbance in mind.
Like 'self'.
Are you saying that the sense of 'self' is to do with the content of a thought, but is really nothing more than a thought like any other?

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nonaparry
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby nonaparry » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:21 pm

[Thoughts] seem to arise spontaneously out of 'nothing'. Is that possible?
Yes. Good noticing!!
Sometimes there is an interior spaciousness and sometimes there is a thought. One moment there is a silence and the next there is a thought.
Today take some time to pay attention to this phenomenon. What is happening during those times when there is no thought, when mind is blank?
Are you saying that the sense of 'self' is to do with the content of a thought, but is really nothing more than a thought like any other?
I didn't say that, and it's true.
Check it. Do this little exercise:
Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a large watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly, that you feel its weight, its shape, its temperature, the texture of its skin, its scent, the hollow sound when you knock on it. Hold it there, sensing it vividly. Got it?

Now open your eyes.
What happened to the melon that was sensed so vividly?

The thought of the melon is real; the melon itself [content of the thought] is an image in the mind: imaginary. There is a vivid 'sense' of a melon, yet the melon itself is imaginary.
Same with vivid sense of self. Check it. Close your eyes and point with your finger to 'self', to 'me', to 'I'. Then open your eyes and tell me, what are you pointing at?

Where did the melon go when you opened your eyes?
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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KateChristine
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Re: In need of a guide and clear seeing

Postby KateChristine » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:22 pm

What is happening during those times when there is no thought, when mind is blank?
Nothing is happening as such, but there is definite presence. There is peace and there is vastness. I have been meditating for a number of years and so I have experience of this silence. However, I am trying to put aside what I think I know for the moment and I'm finding it a bit of a challenge. These past few days, since I have engaged in this process with you, have actually been pretty weird. I would have said only a week ago that I seem to be encountering quite a lot of resistance, but now, given that seeing and thinking no longer seem to be sure ways of measuring anything, I have no idea what is happening. Thoughts did not want to give me a break today, just as I was attempting to explore the space in between them :-) However, what I did realise is that whether there are thoughts or no thoughts, this 'silence' is always underneath it, if I pay attention. I can experience both silence and thought at the same time. As I was watching or listening to the thoughts a question came to me over and over: If there is no 'self', then WHO or WHAT is thinking? And who or what is doing the believing (or not) in the thought??

I keep getting strange body reactions too. Intense heat, nausea, dizziness. Is this part of it? Of course, as I look at the vague worry about that, I realise that there is none. Are these symptoms to be noticed, but put aside?

I tried the watermelon exercise :-) Interesting. I cannot point to 'I', or 'me'. I cannot even picture/imagine this in the same way that I can a watermelon. The sense of 'my self' is not something that I can define in any way, no word or image is accurate. There seems to be something almost impersonal about it and that is something I find quite disturbing. I have heard others talk about bliss, but this is not my experience. Now, as I am writing, 'I', I have no idea what I even mean by that! Even more disturbing is the sense that there is no way that 'I' can be in control of anything! It's a bit freaky. Am I misunderstanding something? Pffft. Is there a misunderstanding somewhere?


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