Going in circles

[tomk]

My search for peace has been going on for at least 20 years. In an attempt to rid myself of depression, anxiety, and difficulties relating to other people including my family, I spent many years reading philosophy and psychology and taking anti-depressants. Always I have had a strong feeling of not belonging. I only became drawn to spirituality a little over a year ago after reading Thich Nhat Hanh’s The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching. Since then I have replaced the medications with meditation and read many of the books of the well known teachers of Advaita. I have since limited my reading for the most part, since it seems that it is only leading me in circles. I get the feeling that this could drag on for many more years, and searching for peace is getting too frustrating. There is already too much frustration and anger and it affects every aspect of my life as well as those who are close to me. Some of you seem to have a direct understanding of the truth and this is my desire, but it feels unreachable for me. There seems to be a lot of resistance that I cannot get through so I ask for help.

Thank you,
Tom

[jeffdilbeck]

Hey Tom,

I'm willing to talk with you about this. First I expect 100% honesty, and at least one post every 24hrs. Can you tell me what your expectations are?

[tomk]

Thanks, Jeff. I would say my primary expectation is to see the truth as it is in reality, whatever that may be, without delusion. My feeling is that this would somehow lead to peace of mind, loss of fear, ability to relate to others without selfishness and anger. But I may just be deluding myself some more.

[jeffdilbeck]

Is there an entity living inside you which can be healed to make these expectations come true?

Please answer in detail.

Love

[tomk]

There is a definite sense of an entity present. The sense is that it resides behind my eyes, looking out. Sometimes it feels like a stranger, but most times I seem to identify with it and consider it to be myself. When I think about it, it only appears to be composed of memories thoughts and feelings held together somehow. There is a lot of fear, almost like fear holds it together or holds it in place. When I look for the entity I do not find it, only a vague but very familiar sense of me. Like it is mine and mine alone. Something special like a possession I cannot let go of. There is something very selfish about it, almost a childish sort of possessiveness. Strange I never really thought about it like that until now.

I don’t know if it can be healed. It’s a good question but I don’t get a sense of that. I’m not even sure what it is other than a vague but unquestionable sense; a sense of being or existing maybe, but somehow corrupted or tainted by fear. Fear of non-existence? Maybe if the fear was to be removed it could be healed, but without fear what is left? Would it all just fall apart? Interesting, I never realized how dominating this fear can be. It seems to direct my thoughts and actions. It’s almost sinister. But I don’t feel like the fear is me, just something I would like to get rid of but cannot. It has too much power. I wonder what feeds it and gives it this strength. But I’m digressing from the question now.

[jeffdilbeck]

let's scrap all doubts and thoughts about healing, ability, intelligence, etc. they do not serve us here. ;) just allow them to be there and look behind them.

There is a definite sense of an entity present. The sense is that it resides behind my eyes, looking out. Sometimes it feels like a stranger, but most times I seem to identify with it and consider it to be myself.

Funny. I thought 'me' was located behind the eyes too. You said 'sense' about this. Is it personal?

Also, you addressed the feelings as being a fear. What is that fear pointing to? Can you look at the fear and see what is behind it?

love

[jeffdilbeck]

I won't be back on until around 7EST tonight. I can't post from work.

[tomk]

You said 'sense' about this. Is it personal?

It is very personal, but not tangible. That is why I can only call it a ‘sense’. When I look at it, there is nothing substantial to attribute it to. It’s just there. Like a center that ties everything together. But the sense is personal in that it seems to have always been with me. I could even call it a me-sense or a sense of identification.

Also, you addressed the feelings as being a fear. What is that fear pointing to? Can you look at the fear and see what is behind it?

When I look for the fear I do not find it or anything behind it. There is just a blank space; nothing. But as I look, the sense of me or entity-sense is still present and I become more aware of the body and the physical senses. The entity-sense seems to merge with the body and physical senses while the mind disappears. When I stop looking the mind comes back along with my identification with it. Thoughts and feelings also come back with the mind.

When I am looking outward the sense is behind the eyes again, doing the looking. The entity-sense seems to change location depending on where I focus my attention. But as for fear or any other feelings, they are never there when I look for them. It is the same with thoughts.

Thank you

[jeffdilbeck]

You said 'sense' about this. Is it personal?


It is very personal, but not tangible. That is why I can only call it a ‘sense’. When I look at it, there is nothing substantial to attribute it to. It’s just there. 'Like' a center that ties everything together. But the sense is personal in that it seems to have always been with me.

What is that which has always been with you? Is any of this idea real at all? Or just memories that produce sensations, feelings in the body-via the brain and nerves?
I could even call it a me-sense or a sense of identification. (it is a sense of identification, but it isn't a real you)
It IS Like a center that ties everything together, but it is not.

What are you protecting when you say it is 'very personal'? Look deeply at the real truth of this. There isn't a real 'me' there my friend, what you are telling is a STORY.

The 'me' picture is produced by a combination of thoughts and senses, produced by tools with the body. There is not a doer of thinking.

The mind does what it wants to with the body. You are not your mind.
check this for me.

Look at thoughts:
Where do they come from?
Can you control them?
What influences thoughts?
Do you know what your next thought is going to be?
Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
What do you know for sure?

love

[tomk]

What is that which has always been with you? Is any of this idea real at all? Or just memories that produce sensations, feelings in the body-via the brain and nerves?

I suppose there is nothing that has always been with me. It is purely physical. A false impression. Is that correct?

It IS Like a center that ties everything together, but it is not.

So is the mind creating a pattern, making connections where there are none? Imagining a center?

What are you protecting when you say it is 'very personal'? Look deeply at the real truth of this. There isn't a real 'me' there my friend, what you are telling is a STORY.
The 'me' picture is produced by a combination of thoughts and senses, produced by tools with the body. There is not a doer of thinking.

Then I am protecting the story. But if there is no doer then the body has to be creating all of this: the story, the protecting the story, and the doer who protects it. Again, purely physical.

Look at thoughts:
Where do they come from? They come from the brain, just electrical impulses.

Can you control them? Not as they occur, but I have had some success stopping recurring negative thoughts over time. But I suppose that could be reduced to one thought controlling another thought.

What influences thoughts? Situations, moods, habitual thought patterns, other thoughts, sensory stimuli, desires, fears, instincts.

Do you know what your next thought is going to be? No, definitely not. It's an automatic process.

Can a thought be stopped in the middle? That’s a hard one to decide. At first I want to say yes, because it seems I can stop a series of thoughts in the middle. But not an individual thought, so the answer has to be no.

What do you know for sure? I feel I know there is a reality, but I cannot say anything for sure about it or anything else.

[jeffdilbeck]

Cool. Great looking! :)

Let's look at more language for a second.

I suppose there is nothing that has always been with me. It is purely physical. A false impression. Is that correct?
YES!

So is the mind creating a pattern, making connections where there are none? Imagining a center?
YES!

Then I am protecting the story. That could be said, but it isn't true. There is not a real 'I' who is protecting the story.

But if there is no doer then the body has to be creating all of this: the story, the protecting the story, and the doer who protects it. Again, purely physical.
There is no doer of the story of a separate me. All of this is a thought. So yeah, an innocent brain and body are doing the math, and creates a temporal ghost in a temporal shell.

Check this:


Great answers on the questions earlier "look at thoughts'.

So what does not disappear when no thought is applied to it? Think of things around you. Tables, chairs, floor, feet, etc. Check what is real and what is imagined. You said

I feel I know there is a reality, but I cannot say anything for sure about it or anything else.

So just look around at reality, is a foot a foot, a floor a floor, a wall a wall? No mystery there, just a wall. Dig on real-for a bit. I'll be checking off and on for a while. Let me know what you find about 'know for sure'. I'll give you a clue. Look at things like a 5 year old.

love,
jeff

[tomk]

So what does not disappear when no thought is applied to it?

OK, I think I get what you're saying. Physical reality requires no thought. It only requires perception. All those Advaita teachers try to get you to see everything as an illusion. Now you're telling me the only illusion is me. No need to question everything, just my self.

There's something I have to clear up though. I get that there is no thinker, no doer. But the thoughts and actions are still being seen. The world is still being seen. Can we really say that there is nothing that perceives this?

Thanks Jeff, for all your help

[jeffdilbeck]

We have more to look at. :)

There's something I have to clear up though. I get that there is no thinker, no doer. But the thoughts and actions are still being seen. The world is still being seen. Can we really say that there is nothing that perceives this?

No there isn't. You are telling me a story of a ghost that lives inside. We have already figured out how experience is experienced, the part that is being protected is that there is not an experiencer.

Why is it being protected?

Look for the experiencer and tell me where it is.

Sending love,
Jeff

[tomk]

I sense that you are right. There is nothing there but an idea. The harder I look for it the more tension I feel until my stomach tightens. It doesn't want to be seen. There is still fear but I need to see through this.

[jeffdilbeck]

Stomach tightens because it is trying to digest story of me being a story. Look behind all this, is there any separate me there? What is seen when you look?