Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

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kangarupam
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Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:34 am

Almost 1 week ago I had the experience of spontaneously waking up. It happened progressively. In stages. I saw that 'I' was seeking/identifying with a sense of seeking and that this seeking energy was creating blindness to the reality of what is. Previously, I was walking around with my eyes closed/head down to the reality of what is. Suddenly there was SO much awareness, and a sense that I was waiting for a complete death of sorts. There was no identification. Just presence... the mind was happening, but there was only awareness. It was there... but it was in the backseat. The foreground was just HERE.

All the while that this was happening, as the mind was becoming more and more distant, I could hear it shouting "I'm enlightened!! I'm awake!!!" It even started to SOUND enlightened and awake. Sigh.

Then, a couple nights ago I got really bad sleep. I woke up around 2 am and didn't go back to sleep. I'm breastfeeding and wasn't eating enough... I guess all that transcended living was killing me appetite.

I woke/got up still in this transcended state, completely accepting the night's events... but was definitely acting quite the happy idiot. There was a bit of "doing" happening again, suddenly. However, the sense of "NOT being the "I"," or not being identified with the mind or any judgment of what was happening was very strongly present still.

But as the day wore on, it got progressively weaker and weaker. I could hear myself say "It's just the mind, being erratic and stupid in its tiredness. Get some rest, have some food".

But the food didn't settle right, and then the rest was "tortured"... to put it mildly. The dreams were as if consciousness was barfing up all its worst stuff. First, I had a dream about my sister... and I could feel the intensity of my love and pain around our relationship that seemed to be still deeply abiding. The second dream was about my partner... he was cheating on me and never around in the dream when I wanted him... and I was all hot and bothered about it (in the dream). Then there was some "acknowledgment ceremony" that I attended, and my boss was going on and on about how aware and "beautiful" I was. Instead of feeling light, I felt "SACKED" by his complimentary BS.

When I woke up I realized that it had all been occurring as important in the land of the mind - where dreaming itself seems to happen. This was just mind BS, throwing itself up as a last ditch of sorts.

But it feels that the awareness is not as strong. The mind BS is really just THERE, in the way... The awakening is there, but the mind is there too... and the mind has moved in front of the awakening, obscuring it. Where to look??

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vinceschubert
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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:57 am

Hi Pam (is that what i should call you ?)
Let's start with you telling what has been happening in the last 24 hours.
Total honesty, a post every day (at least) if possible, no second hand knowledge - just direct experiencing please.
Write quickly, don't edit - just post. There are no right or wrong answers. i question, you answer spontaneously.
It seems like you have been having some significant experiences.
Do you believe an experience 'means' more than a thought ?

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kangarupam
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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:39 pm

First of all, I wish I could edit the above post to make it shorter. Sorry!! Much of it is extemporaneous (is that the right word - fancy!!) ;)

Last 24 hours: The mind is going "what is going on here", and saying "you are not aware enough to be awake". But there is a sense of it not having the true say in the matter. Things aren't affecting me, really. But the emotions are swirling in the body. Thoughts are there. Brief pockets happen, and there is laughing. But the mind is like this ferocious bulldog... and the disidentification feels very fragile (like a flower or something, easily crushed - although the crushing doesn't seem to be happening).

I can feel myself editing the experience... so who is this "myself". Who is this judger? Or should I say "WHAT" is this judger and "WHY" is it in the picture (doesn't the mind want to know!!!) - You said not to edit. Now this is beginning to sound "mad" ;)
Do you believe an experience 'means' more than a thought ?
An experience of course means more than a thought. But then what gives it "meaning", really. The mind? The thoughts? Some external theory borrowed from a teacher by this externalized, bossy, head-butting bulldog of a mind? (What a creation I have made as the mind)!!! Love, Ru (better name than Pam)

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:22 pm

Morning Ru (down here in Australia)
I wish I could edit the above post
The idea of not being able to edit is to honour the spontaneous as more valuable than that which is left after the mind has finished with it. (like the spoken word)
By the time you are through the gate, there will be no concerns about how it 'looks' to others. If you appear mad (but in fact are liberated) Who is it that would care ?
Ru, have you SEEN (not believed from others, not deduced with logic) that the I, the Self is nothing but a concept, invented by the mind ? Some details please. How, When, emotional consequences, etc.

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:48 am

An experience of course means more than a thought. But then what gives it "meaning", really. The mind? The thoughts?
Exactly. If the experience (physical/emotional reaction) it the response to thought, then why is an experience more meaningful than thought ?

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kangarupam
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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:47 am

An experience of course means more than a thought. But then what gives it "meaning", really. The mind? The thoughts?
Exactly. If the experience (physical/emotional reaction) it the response to thought, then why is an experience more meaningful than thought ?
IS experience response to thought?? Rupam has only experience... the wind on my face, experience. The keys beneath the fingers while typing, experience. I guess... there is no way to know why an experience is more meaningful than a thought. A thought feels like it's just not happening... it's just there, like a signpost is there and you can choose to follow it or not... but it's not "real"... whereas this experience of life with everything in it... at this moment, happening... feels real. So if one or the other is to be more "meaningful" (a loaded word)... experience would win every time.

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kangarupam
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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:06 am

Morning Ru (down here in Australia)
I wish I could edit the above post
The idea of not being able to edit is to honour the spontaneous as more valuable than that which is left after the mind has finished with it. (like the spoken word)
By the time you are through the gate, there will be no concerns about how it 'looks' to others. If you appear mad (but in fact are liberated) Who is it that would care ?
Evening! :) here in California.

Yes, it was a bit "idiotic"... I don't know how to answer exactly. There is a sense abiding of having to do things "right" or to phrase them in a certain way in order to be UNDERSTOOD. What is it that is needing to be understood?

The mind snuck in clearly to add that bit... wanting to edit the spontaneous. This is often the struggle here when struggle appears: how to appear to be seen in a certain light, to be seen as the mind believes it is.
Ru, have you SEEN (not believed from others, not deduced with logic) that the I, the Self is nothing but a concept, invented by the mind ? Some details please. How, When, emotional consequences, etc.
HAVE YOU SEEN that the self is nothing but a concept... No. Yes? No? I am not sure how to answer exactly... It seems that there has been a seeing. A huge seeing, but in this moment.... looking at some past experience is sort of like trying to remember a dream I just had... I mix up the bits and its hard to relay clearly.

I believe the original description in my first post accurately summarizes the big bang of "seeing" I experienced in the past week... I was NO LONGER the mind. In fact, there was really no way to describe whatever "I" was... it was just there, watching, witnessing, being... everything was just being lived. As for emotional consequence, there was none... there was just being. What do emotions have to do with anything anyway? They are just another part of what is happening, and if they are happening one minute big deal... "emotional consequence" = is there such a thing?

As for now, right this moment... (the only really pertinent subject, no?) There is a sense of disidentification with all things. I am sitting on my bed, hearing sounds, feeling the physical body... just presence. My son is in bed, making noises. I watch the noises, watch the body... if there is a response, I watch the response.

All of this is purely spontaneous, arising from this moment... Concepts? There is no such thing in this moment. There ARE moments where the mind is repeating some commentary about a past moment... and there is a sense of "ignore that" and ignoring happens. There is no longer this identification... repeat repeat :) :)

However, what I HAVE taken as a concept (and perhaps this is what is getting in the way of full true realization)... is this theory I have heard that the thinking MIND is supposed to just disappear when there is awakening. And yet? There is still the thinking mind, chattering on. BUT OHHH so much LESS OF IT!!! Perhaps I am just listening to doubts unduly? Love, Ru

What is an emotional consequence? You mean the frustration at suddenly being unable to remain in this unaltered state of freedom & dis-identification?

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:50 am

how to appear to be seen in a certain light, to be seen as the mind believes it is.
Yes, but not only does the mind distort, but it's not honest.
I have heard that the thinking MIND is supposed to just disappear when there is awakening.
Ha, yes. This is why we want only your direct experiencing. What you have heard is BS (beliefs & stories). It's also a load of horse shit. Your own experiencing will show what is true.
Ru, a lot of what you say is what a liberated person would say. i can't tell if they are just words or a description of your experiencing, but that will out as we go along.
Forgetting what you have heard, tell me what your expectations are for how liberation will be ?
And tell me if there is a 'self' anywhere there now ?

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:45 pm

how to appear to be seen in a certain light, to be seen as the mind believes it is.
Yes, but not only does the mind distort, but it's not honest.
For some reason I want to keep re-reading this line!!!! hahahaha....

Not only does the mind distort... IT'S NOT HONEST. There is this sense that I'll be ousted as some kind of a liar or phony, that there cannot be enlightenment... That it's just far too "awesome" is the word that comes to mind... lol. I keep hearing these thoughts repeat: Something to the tune of "liar" "No, that's not happening" and then the mind goes about its busy "busy-iness". hehe... :) lol But of course it's seen only!!! It's not believed! What a revelation!!! LOL!

It is as if the mind as Rupam has spent its/her whole life in an imitation of form and appearance. Literally, for Rupam it has been a practice of painstaking deliberation to become the "person" she is today... She lived a life of extreme freedom until age 12 - a life filled with a sense of physical and mental liberation (her mother allowed this through extensive travel in remote areas), so the coming back to the US left her feeling extremely "odd" and "outsider-ish". So she "took on the cloak" of her surrounders... "to fit in"... and great pain and struggle began.
I have heard that the thinking MIND is supposed to just disappear when there is awakening.
Ha, yes. This is why we want only your direct experiencing. What you have heard is BS (beliefs & stories). It's also a load of horse shit. Your own experiencing will show what is true.
Ru, a lot of what you say is what a liberated person would say. i can't tell if they are just words or a description of your experiencing, but that will out as we go along.
Forgetting what you have heard, tell me what your expectations are for how liberation will be ?
And tell me if there is a 'self' anywhere there now ?
This is Rupam's STORY (above). and it is no longer believed as her identity. Now it is only the mind spelling it out to understand its own origins.

This is also a hang up - to tell the story of Rupam, with its beauty and detail - as it is a massive, shining arrow to this enormous experience of Grace that is occuring here, now as her... Hm, no "THROUGH" her is more accurate here.

Expectations...? Well, there is a sense of responsibility that the mind fears... but can really not be predicted. Also there is a mind fear of not being able to explain oneself clearly enough in order to be understood. blahblahblahblahblah!! :D These are so ludicrous, because in the moment, explaining happens and it can be as clear as it needs to be.

I live in a zen community also, and our master died in March... and he was: Phenomenal. A true master - great speaker and storyteller. He wanted a successor, but no one woke up with him...

and I just feel like (the I here that is speaking is suddenly the mind!!) THE MIND JUST FEELS LIKE (that's more like it)... The mind feels afraid, as if what can it offer that he offered. She is (Rupam is) just a humble servant of this message/of this life... what does she offer that can possibly be of use to anyone? of anything?? Why do people put these enlightened masters on these podiums and then praise them and let them preach.

Since her enlightenment looks nothing like her masters, or like his master's (Osho)... there is the noisiness.

I took my son to see the chickens the other day and started laughing when I realized, that their noisiness was like the noisiness of the thinker/thinking mind.

bock,bock,bock,bock,bock,begowwwwk - Bwwaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkk!

:D :D

Life is quite fun, isn't it? I am amazed that others are so full of fear... or that ANYONE believes the mind!!! It's just such a big phony!!! But then I have believed it for so long.

With liberation I "expect" to have as much fun as possible!!! Haha... and then, when I am not having fun to just be, and then let the fun begin again. Love, Ru

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:48 pm

And tell me if there is a 'self' anywhere there now ?
I don't know... a "self".

Hello? There is the thinking mind as I have described. But... then that's just a big chicken as we have described earlier.

There is a self but it's not believed or identified with. It's just there, clucking away.

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:02 pm

There is a self but it's not believed or identified with. It's just there, clucking away.
Ru, What form does this self take ?
Expectations...? Well, there is a sense of responsibility that the mind fears... but can really not be predicted. Also there is a mind fear of not being able to explain oneself clearly enough in order to be understood.
Are these "fears" perceived as sensations ?
I live in a zen community also, and our master died in March...
What IS your relationship with him ?

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kangarupam
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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:33 pm

Ru, What form does this self take ?
There is no form, there is just a seeing of the thoughts occurring as they occur...
Are these "fears" perceived as sensations ?
They are just perceived... there are sometimes sensations perceived but they are so rare and so fleeting... The heart might contract quickly but it's a quick thing, and always seen secondarily, from this other place... and maybe after the initial contraction there will be a giggle or a wiggle. Energy moving itself back into the place it was living.
What IS your relationship with him ?
What IS relationship? There is no relationship. He is here, energetically... having died, the energy is here, strong, vibrating. High resonancy-feeling.

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby Empty Mirror » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:16 am

Hi Rupam

I've read your thread, and I think the only issue that you have is that you don't realise that even though the 'dream' becomes lucid, it still continues to play out.

The dreamer has no control of the dream after it becomes lucid just like there was no control of the dream before it became lucid.

It's the old Zen saying:
Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water :-)

The dream, with all of it's "ups" and "downs", and "positives" and "negatives", continues to play out. The only difference is that the miraculous wonder of the dream is noticed.

Thinking carries on, doing carries on, liking and disliking still go on, loving and laughing still go on, sadness and sorrow still go on, but each is just seen by the dreamer to be perfect expressions of beingness within their own right.

You aren't "falling back to sleep", enlightenment is just not what you expected it to be :-)

With time the expectations fall away but the clarity doesn't, and with time it's seen that everything, including any feelings of being back asleep are just a part of this dream of beingness. They're just appearing in exactly what everything has always being appearing in.

What is it that makes you think that you may have fallen "back to sleep"?

What is not here today that was here a week ago?

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby kangarupam » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:23 pm

What is it that makes you think that you may have fallen "back to sleep"?

What is not here today that was here a week ago?
Thank you for contributing to this thread's unfoldment.........

I say toward the end of the first post here that: "...it feels that the awareness is not as strong. The mind BS is really just THERE, in the way... The awakening is there, but the mind is there too... and the mind has moved in front of the awakening, obscuring it..."

THIS is what was the initial reason for feeling that "Rupam" as she is, had fallen back to sleep.

However since the beginning of the conversations in this thread begun, the awareness that there is something else operating here beyond this experience of "obscuration" that WAS present (and has now seemingly faded)... has dissolved much of this sense of assleepness. Also, some "confusions" were seen through... such as the fact that tiredness does create a "feeling" of "loss of clarity" (though this feeling is now SHARPLY WATCHED, allowing for the awareness to remain), and that SOME of the "fleeting fears" and "instincts" that I am feeling are related to my SON of all things... as if we are still linked in a way and I can feel his feelings. (This was another source of "doubt"/hesitation... that I felt these unexplainable tensions and fear-like urges that are revealing themselves to be linked to his well-being and peace of mind).

ANOTHER contributor is the age-old story I have been passed by my late master and in readings of his late master... and all the zen masters he used to read stories from in his talks (blah blah blah): That awakening is "Dramatic" in a sense: Long bouts of laughter, crying, release... huge surges of energy (as in Osho's case)... and then complete loss of the thinking mind (Ramesh Balsekar says there are two minds: The thinking mind and the working mind. I would disagree that it is the identifying mind and the thinking mind, but of course what do I know at this early stage or at any stage really!!!!!!! hahahaha and what is there to be known anyway).

What came last night however is this: Rupam's life (in many ways) has been dramatic, yet this awakening is so unbelievably gentle. Its gentleness is perfect yet the mind is expecting something else naturally due to the training and teaching its absorbed and believed. There have been huge surges of energy pre-awakening... they set the stage. Long bouts of laughter and crying have happened, pre-awakening... Rupam is ready to slip out of the dream and in fact has: quietly, a cat into the night, hearing the sound of crickets and feeling the cool light of the moon, the trees whispering to each other... just walking quietly away from the life of suffering everyone calls home into a new land. Nothing dramatic. Nothing extraordinary. Just this. Quiet relief. Love, Ru

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Re: Awakening, and then... Back to Sleep?!

Postby Empty Mirror » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:29 pm

What came last night however is this: Rupam's life (in many ways) has been dramatic, yet this awakening is so unbelievably gentle. Its gentleness is perfect yet the mind is expecting something else naturally due to the training and teaching its absorbed and believed.
Exactly. So many stories are told but none of them are true :-)

The way that the personal I dissolves is naturally totally unique.
There have been huge surges of energy pre-awakening... they set the stage. Long bouts of laughter and crying have happened, pre-awakening... Rupam is ready to slip out of the dream and in fact has: quietly, a cat into the night, hearing the sound of crickets and feeling the cool light of the moon, the trees whispering to each other... just walking quietly away from the life of suffering everyone calls home into a new land. Nothing dramatic. Nothing extraordinary. Just this. Quiet relief. Love, Ru
I loved this :-)

In my opinion you're already through the gate, so I couldn't claim to have guided you.

But if you like please answer the following questions. I feel sure that the answers will be a delight to read :-)

(1) Is there a "me," at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?
(2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts, and how it works.
(3) How does it feel to see this?
(4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion?
(5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


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