So how does this work? :-)

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vitakka
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So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:38 pm

Hello,

I've found my way here and feel happy about it, curious, a bit nervous and frightened to name few feelings. Can't stop now though. I've read the instructions and checked out few boards and threads to get the idea, so let's let the universe decide who'll guide me. :-)

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Cam-RT
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby Cam-RT » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:18 pm

Hello and welcome!

First I do have one rule...When I ask questions that you answer (When Ready.) them with complete honesty, and what you feel is 100% True and Concise. 

Please take time daily to perform 'The Work" and LOOK introspectively...This in essence is a dysfunction of how one processes thought. What we are doing is challenging and triggering the thought process and shedding light on what truly is behind these thoughts...

One last thing I need to ask, is whatever spiritual practices, beliefs or readings, please put them on hold until we are done. They are of NO use here. You can revisit these when we're finished...

I realize that life gets a bit hectic, If you can check in and let me know how you're doing daily, we can address where you're at on the path.

The Key here is Focus, Courage and Commitment, if not this will take far longer than it should. 

Are we Good??...Let's get Started.

So what expectations do you have from liberation ?

And what comes up when I say "There's no such Entity "Self" in real life at all??"
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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vitakka
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:30 pm

Hello Cam-RT and thank you for your response. I am willing to follow the rule and guidelines, so we're good.
So what expectations do you have from liberation ?
I feel interested in seeing what kind of difference it may make and want to be open to what may come, although I do have assumptions that perhaps there'll be less internal hustle and bustle, less resisting to "what is", less judging and labeling things and people. Who knowa, maybe there's none of some of those.
And what comes up when I say "There's no such Entity "Self" in real life at all??"
RIght now: contradictory feelings. On one hand it feels incomprehensible because I can see and feel myself and I can explain and rationalize to myself that here's me. My self. On the other, it brings up anxiety.

This is something I've been examining / contemplating / meditating for some time so something has come up previously. I understand that "me" is just a structure supported by what or who I unconsciously belive I am, (and who I therefore think I am). It's just thoughts that add up to persona that I identify myself with.

I've had some kind of moments of clarity a couple of times, through which I feel I have gained inner knowing how Self is just an illusion. At one point I felt melancholic for a couple of days, and understood it was because I had to admit that now that I've seen a glimpse of being-wihout-concept-of-self it'll probably be impossible to hold on to self for the rest of my life. The sadness of saying goodbye, though I haven't let go of it yet.

Today there's been fear (and resisting it) of... of what? Like, then what if there's not "me" anymore? I've had life time of ups'n downs, personal gratification gained through different sorts of achievements, hating being me, loving being me, thinking and feeling that I'm a failure / okay / likable / wanted / a mess / a disappointment / awesome... so what do I get my kicks out of if there'll be no "me" who has these experiences? What all will I have to let go of along "me"?

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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby Cam-RT » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:16 am

Hello! Vitakka... So is there another name you prefer to use?...You know, to make this a more personal conversation?
I feel interested in seeing what kind of difference it may make and want to be open to what may come, although I do have assumptions that perhaps there'll be less internal hustle and bustle, less resisting to "what is", less judging and labeling things and people. Who knowa, maybe there's none of some of those.
Good, people vary on the results at first, just as long as we aren't looking for something "earth shaking".


And what comes up when I say "There's no such Entity "Self" in real life at all??"
RIght now: contradictory feelings. On one hand it feels incomprehensible because I can see and feel myself and I can explain and rationalize to myself that here's me. My self. On the other, it brings up anxiety.
These feelings are the body senseing the challenge ahead, and not wanting you to continue...
First let's take a quick look at fear/ anxiety and then see how thoughts play a role in all this...

Fear itself is not to be feared, It's a Mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system. It's protecting something from being found out...

When you look, just let it be here... Find out where in the body it is being felt, then bring it closer, invite it to share in it's wisdom...It's fine to just let it be...Respect it...Bow to it...Then look what's behind the fear.

Okay, now we're going to address how thoughts and feelings coincide within the body and how the body will help guide you to finding and seeing the "Self" as it really is...

The mind, in addition to being an incredible processing and storage device, is also a labeling machine that labels experience as soon as perception happens.

Here's how it occurs...

Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labeled---New trigger---Feeling gets more intense ---More labels--->Vicious feedback loop...

This is what go's on endlessly when " I " is at the centre...

Now I want you to think of a uncomfortable thought...(The more negative the better.)  Pick a couple, (You know those reoccurring ones that really bug you.)

Do you feel how the body reacts when these thoughts are revisited??

It's that physical connection that we are going to practice; Even after liberation this can be a valuable tool in inquiring thoughts and  tracing them back to it's source..  Remember the body doesn't lie... When the body feels threatened it will react to protect itself...Same as if someone was to threaten to "hit" you and the reflex that follows to protect the body.... You'll notice the same reaction or "connection" with other negative thoughts / feelings like...
Anger,  frustration, sadness, depression, impatients, anxiety  etc...

Now, let's take this a step further...When you feel the body react, bring this thought up close, look...(with "laser focus") deep inside and behind this thought...

What's driving these thoughts?
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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vitakka
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:28 am

Vitakka... So is there another name you prefer to use?...You know, to make this a more personal conversation?
Hi,
and sure, I go by Ville.
What's driving these thoughts?
I can detect a couple of things:
Thoughts give ego the sense of existing, thus they make "me" exist as I identify myself with ego. So that alone is one "driver", maybe more in general.
Fear stirs up thoughts that have more power or momentum or such, so ego gets a boost from them. I think it's the same when I want to be right, or for example feel better that other people, or feel that I have "advanced" or "developed", or feel angry (because I've been done wrong by someone). Ego boost = even stronger sense of existing.

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Cam-RT
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby Cam-RT » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:02 pm

Hello Ville...
What's driving these thoughts?
Thoughts give ego the sense of existing, thus they make "me" exist as I identify myself with ego. So that alone is one "driver", maybe more in general.
Hmmm...Let's first touch base on Thoughts vs. Ego. Okay first, BOTH don't exist outside the mind...The brain is a muscle and it's job is to think so eliminating thought is not what we are after...

Now the best Term I've found to describe Ego is, it's a "Survival Instinct" and is hard coded into our genetic structure, Just like in animals, there's a bit more to it as far as survival goes but I hope you catch my "Drift" ;^) Have you ever felt that "Rush" when you're standing on a ledge or doing something death defying? That's the Ego in the back ground trying to keep the body from harm...But just like "The Self" they weave their way throughout the thought structure...

Try it again...Pick a thought, bring it up close and go straight through it, and look what's behind it...
So where are all these thoughts coming from ??
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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vitakka
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:58 am

Maybe ego wasn't a good term to be used, since I anyway meant "I" or "me". But thanks for a good description of what you've found it to be! There's so many views and ideas associated with / attached to it, and I think sometimes they are unnecessarily complicated.
So where are all these thoughts coming from ??
You mean these thoughts that carry the energy of anxiety and fear? Not just thoughts in general?

When I think that "what if there was no me" and connect with those unpleasant feelings that get triggered...
Here's few observations that I(?) have made during past couple of days, in this order:
* What do I need "I" for? What purpose does it still serve, after those momentarily revelations that it's an illusion anyway?
* What if there was no-one or nothing to tell how to do things right, and how to do it right in life? So apparently there's one function of "I" which is still important to me. And I got a feeling that without it life would be free! And a question arises: what for is it important to me to be able to verify that I'm right, or doing it right? Right according to who
* I want approval, and in my life I have learned to get it by being certain way, by presenting certain kind of personality. As we know "persona" is Greek and means a mask. What if this personality and character was no more, how would other people like me then? Or even: how could they like me?
* I took a thought "what if there's was no me" and observed myself associating it with the idea of not existing at all, you know, not even physically. Having gone. Fear of dying is playing a role here...
Then I went: Slow down, that wasn't the idea but the non-existance of "I"."
Then I went: "Well if that's what comes up I'll be with that thought and feeling."
And I got: "So what, universe and life wouldn't care much, wonder if they'd even notice. So it's kind of self-centered and selfish to think that what would I do if there was no I or me".
Then I went: ""Selfish" is just another label and concept. What's behind that selfishness, what's it consist of?"
It's that fear of losing those things mentioned above, and all the unconscious things on top of them. :-P
So where are all these thoughts coming from ??
I just spent a brief moment observing my thoughts. I don't know! I mean I can not spot a place where they come from because they come from nothing, from emptiness. I've done observing my thoughts, feelings and body before but this time the connection to this "nothing" was more clear. Perhaps just because I've been observing my thoughts more than where they come from.

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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby Cam-RT » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:00 pm

Good Morning, Ville...
You mean these thoughts that carry the energy of anxiety and fear? Not just thoughts in general?
Yes, I was talking thoughts in general...It appears that you've got a lot spinning in the background, that's fine, But let's try to focus and we can get back to some of these Questions later..."The Self" is trying to keep you distracted from looking...
* What do I need "I" for? What purpose does it still serve, after those momentarily revelations that it's an illusion anyway?
Exactly, it's an unnecessary construct of thought that feeds on constant attention and energy.

So try this, observe (if you will) "Ville" throughout the day as you go about your daily tasks...Does it require a "YOU" to perform these tasks? or is it Automatic...
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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vitakka
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:31 am

It appears that you've got a lot spinning in the background
I have / my mind has a habit of analyzing stuff. :-)
observe (if you will) "Ville" throughout the day
I will. And I'll get back later, since there's some work to do now. Cheers!

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vitakka
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:13 pm

So try this, observe (if you will) "Ville" throughout the day as you go about your daily tasks...Does it require a "YOU" to perform these tasks? or is it Automatic...
Hmmm... few things that have become bit more consious are that

"I" is not required for
- getting tasks done
- having a thought
- feeling feelings
- breathing

However me uses "I" :-) for
- procrastinating
- thinking
- escaping or resisting feelings
- holding or controlling breath

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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby Cam-RT » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:20 am

Hello, Ville...

This quote below is from earlier in the thread...
I just spent a brief moment observing my thoughts. I don't know! I mean I can not spot a place where they come from because they come from nothing, from emptiness.
Trace back all these from the feeling to the thought that's connected, and like you said above they terminate from the nothing that they emerged...TRY IT! And while your at it, is it possible to think more than one thought at a time or do they quit or morph into another thought...
Remember thoughts are essensially energy and need attention to survive... Either that or they feed on themselves to create a new thought to sustain the loop that I referred to earlier...
However me uses "I" :-) for
- procrastinating
- thinking
- escaping or resisting feelings
- holding or controlling breath
Is there a procrastinator?... or is there just procrastinating?

Does it require an " I " to think? Or is there just thought?

What is it that's escaping??... Is there an escaper?...Trace it back, What is "IT" that's resisting?

The body breathes and the body is the slave to the mind BUT if you pass out what is it that starts breathing again does it require a "you" to start breathing again?

Please take a look within each of the senses to look for a self.  Carefully examine each sense to see whether there is a separation between what is traditionally broken up into three components.

When an object is seen, is there a seer or just seeing happening?
When a sound is heard, is there a hearer or just hearing happening?
When your favorite dessert is tasted, is there a taster or just tasting happening?
When a sensation appears, is there a sensor or just sensing happening?
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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vitakka
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:48 pm

Hello Cam-RT,

it's been a bit busy, I'd like to get back to you with more time one of these days when it slows down. But I appreciate your responses and pointers even though I may write back with just few words.
When an object is seen, is there a seer or just seeing happening?
When a sound is heard, is there a hearer or just hearing happening?
When your favorite dessert is tasted, is there a taster or just tasting happening?
When a sensation appears, is there a sensor or just sensing happening?
I hear you. :-) And this doesn't sound too unfamiliar, though it isn't the way I'm permanently perceiving or experiencing life.
Is there a procrastinator?... or is there just procrastinating?
Does it require an " I " to think? Or is there just thought?
What is it that's escaping??... Is there an escaper?...Trace it back, What is "IT" that's resisting?
The body breathes and the body is the slave to the mind BUT if you pass out what is it that starts breathing again does it require a "you" to start breathing again?
What I tried to express is that performing tasks, having a thought or a feeling (and noticing they or being aware of ithem when they arise and dissolve away), or breathing doesn't require I, or doer, or effort-maker, or such. They just happen. When the state of identifying with my mind & feelings & body is absent, that's the way it is. Breathing is unrestricted, physical sensations are richer and what felt like resisting earlier is just an energetic sensation. But when I fall back to the state of identifying with those three, I think I'm my thoughts, I don't really feel my body and breathing gets restricted as a result of uncoscious mental resisting of what is. Anyway that's the best way I can describe how these two states of being feel to me. That's not to say that the first one is fully free of "I", but it has lead me towards understanding that "I" is an illusion and mind games.

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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:01 pm

When the state of identifying with my mind & feelings & body is absent
...then again there's still identifying with so called awareness, which is local and located in within my body. Hmmm...

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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby Cam-RT » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:41 am

Hello, Ville...

Here try this take twenty minutes or so, and pay special attention to how the body reacts...

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. 

Like this- 
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing? 

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs: 
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body. 

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Your body knows. I is a label, not experiencer. Not a thinker, not a doer, not a hearer of rain. I is not what makes eyes blink and it is not a breather, it's a word, that is used for convenience of communication. If it's believed to be an entity, the mind is confused, the body is tensed up. Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'? 

Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I. 

What is not on automatic?
And do we really need to be enslaved by labels? After all, experience is what labels point TO. 

Look. Don't think, just look. 
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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vitakka
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Re: So how does this work? :-)

Postby vitakka » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:50 am

If it's believed to be an entity, the mind is confused, the body is tensed up. Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?
Heh, feels like that is one way to sum up where I'm at. When I bring myself back to now from that confusion, it's clear that there is no "I" and it can only live in my mental stories about "I", and that it's just a bundle of concepts and ideas about who "Ville" is, and... well, you know.

The other side of the coin: seems that the conditioning to being "Ville" is ingrained and falling back into believing that "Ville" is real happens so easily. Then I "wake up" and wonder what unconscious mechanism made it happen again.
Here try this take twenty minutes or so, and pay special attention to how the body reacts...
I did that in a bit different style, but first here's shortly about my background: I've practiced certain modality for some six years now, which suited me (who is allergic to dogmas, -isms, rules, shoulds and musts) because it felt so free. It's not about changing or fixing or improving, but simply about becoming more conscious about oneself, and all the different aspects of "your whole being". The modality, and the way you can do the practice, has evolved by losing what has been noticed to be limiting. I call it inner observation and it's basically about two things: conscious choice and decision to turn attention to your feelings and sensations, and conscious choice and decision to be with them and let them be felt – no matter how they feel and what reactions they might stir up. Then be with those emotional reactions too.

So I took time to do that again, remembering your instructions above. The way I do it is that I usually lay down on bed and focus awareness on breath, simply because it turns attention into "inner space". I've used questions to myself as a tool to probe deeper into what's going on (such as "How I do feel right now? How do I like the way I feel?"). Or I've used reminders to encourage myself to be open to what is and allow the process to take over (such as "I want my body and psyche to breath the way they want to, and show me what limiting conditiongs there is to be felt). I have gained awareness and understanding that I'm not the processes that happen in my being and the happen on their on, the less I try to do anything about anything the more they unwind and stuff gets released.

But. Now. There's been this word "I" and "me" all the time. :-) Maybe holding on to the remains of "I" still serves the purpose of having a sense of being in control. Even in inner observation there is "I" who gives processes and feelings a permission to be felt. That's bullshit. As if processes, life, need a permission. Could be fear of change, but it's still absolute bullshit. Phew.


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