Ready, willing and hopefully able.

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Finoh
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Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:20 pm

I am after some coaching, the more rigorous the better. I have been searching for 45 years since my mid teens. I have done all types of meditation (vipassana was a favourite) travelled to India, read countless books on the whole nonduality spectrum and watched and listened to many videos and podcasts also. I will reply daily, give it 100% and drop all other methods of searching such as books, videos, podcasts etc.

Come and get me I am yours.

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Cam-RT
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Cam-RT » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:55 am

Hello and welcome...

Now we do have one rule...That when we ask you questions, please answer when ready,  with complete honesty, precisely, and what you "feel" is 100% true...
I will reply daily, give it 100% and drop all other methods of searching such as books, videos, podcasts etc.
Good! They are of no use here, the same go's with opinions or beliefs, they will only serve to distract you from the focus of this conversation...You can revisit them later if you wish...

What expectations  do you have from becoming Liberated?

And before I go...

What comes up when I say..."There is no separate entity "Self" in real life at all??
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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Finoh
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:39 am

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I am not used to these forum sites so there might be a few formatting issues I might need to get a handle on so the responses look nice and tidy. I will have to look up the quoting proceedure as I have been just copying and pasting portions I want to highlight.

"What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?"
Apart from being able to read minds, be extremely successful in everything I do and have my own TV show, not much!! Just kidding!! Life will go on exactly as it has prior to becoming liberated but there will be no 'me' trying to do it and stuffing a lot of things up, therefore suffering should diminish. Regrets from the past will disappear as they happened to no one I hope! Thoughts will still arise but their effect on the illusory "I" will gradually diminish. I will be a lot clearer that I am not an "I or me".

What comes up when I say..."There is no separate entity "Self" in real life at all?? This is where I have a problem, by this if you mean that there is no "I, me or mine", if this is what you mean by the "self" I have no problem with that, or do you mean the "Self" (big S) that is who we really are, our true natural state, awareness, being etc. If there was a separate entity "Self" then what would be aware of it, there must then be 2 "Selfs".

As an aside my wife has just asked that I get awakened by 4pm this afternoon so I can wash the car. I told her it might take a 'bit longer'.
I hope my sense of humour improves. Any way I look forward to your further coaching.

Thanks
Finoh

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Finoh
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:22 pm

I have some further thoughts on "What comes up when I say..."There is no separate entity "Self" in real life at all??" What has come up a couple of times after asking this question and attempting to look at it from a more experiential level is a pausing of thought and then a sense of nothingness. I actually do not know what to say other than there is a temptation to go into memory and dig around for an answer. I feel as though I have come to a dead end and cannot look at it properly.

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Cam-RT
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Cam-RT » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:10 pm

Hello Finoh...
Life will go on exactly as it has prior to becoming liberated but there will be no 'me' trying to do it and stuffing a lot of things up, therefore suffering should diminish.
Well you know what they say about Enlightenment...Before Enlightenment, chop wood carry water...After Enlightenment, Chop wood, carry water... ;^)
This is where I have a problem, by this if you mean that there is no "I, me or mine", if this is what you mean by the "self" I have no problem with that, or do you mean the "Self" (big S) that is who we really are, our true natural state, awareness, being etc. If there was a separate entity "Self" then what would be aware of it, there must then be 2 "Selfs".
In essence what we are dealing with here, is a dysfunction of the thought process that in fact creates what appears to be a separate being ( A thought.) that points toward ownership/identity that in reality doesn't exist...

Let me explain how this occurs right now. ( The UN-liberated state.)

The mind in addition to being and incredible processing and storage device also is a labeling machine that labels experience as soon as perception happens...

Here's is an example...

Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labeled--->New trigger--->Feeling gets more intense--->more labels--->Vicious feedback loop...

This goes on endlessly as long as this mental dysfunction persists...(The Self)

Try finding some negative or insecure thoughts...The more intense the better for this exercise... Feel how the body responds when these thoughts arise?<-----You can use the body as a tool to trace back thoughts that are associated to "The self"...Remember the body doesn't lie. This reflex is the same if someone was to slap or punch you and the body automatically reacts to protect itself...TRY IT!! get the feel of that sensation. This to will help guide you. (Even after liberation.)

So bring one or two of these thoughts up close...Now look at what's behind this thought.

What's there?------> What's driving it??
As an aside my wife has just asked that I get awakened by 4pm this afternoon so I can wash the car. I told her it might take a 'bit longer'.
Tell her this might take a while, and that you need a lawn chair and a couple of beers and go sit on a mountain top for a while to see this ;^D Ha Ha.

No really, keep her in the loop so she can see what's going on here. We don't want her to think she's going to loose her husband, just the same guy without a lot of the bullshit floating around his head!!
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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Finoh
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:58 am

Try finding some negative or insecure thoughts...The more intense the better for this exercise... Feel how the body responds when these thoughts arise?<-----You can use the body as a tool to trace back thoughts that are associated to "The self"...Remember the body doesn't lie. This reflex is the same if someone was to slap or punch you and the body automatically reacts to protect itself...TRY IT!! get the feel of that sensation. This to will help guide you. (Even after liberation.)

So bring one or two of these thoughts up close...Now look at what's behind this thought.

What's there?------> What's driving it??
Cam, one thing I should point out is that a couple of years ago I suffered problems during an emergency operation and I occasionally get things mixed up or use the wrong words so my wife has got into the habit of checking things I write, although not all the time. So if anything I write is a bit askew let me know, which I am sure you will.

I initially looked at this 'exercise' and thought that looks easy, I then spent the next 3 hours actively avoiding it. When I did finally have a serious look I had trouble coming up with examples to trigger sensations in the body. Then I found a few which were possibly custom made for the 'exercise'. Then the flood gates were opened and more and more kept coming up with you guessed it the "I" at the helm trying to control the ship, more likely run it aground.

What was very clearly there in all of these situations was either an 'I' or 'me' or 'mine' basically trying to protect itself. By this I mean that it could be an attempt to validate who 'I' am, or protect itself from a perceived attack or slight on the reputation of the 'I' or other situations in which someone speaks in an inappropriate manner and offends the all important 'I'.

"What a hide they have in having a go at important 'me'....don't they know who 'I' am and what 'I' stand for."

So in a nutshell for me when the 'I' gets or senses it is being threatened in any way it seems to get very active with a big increase in thoughts about the 'I'. These mainly take the form of questions, why me etc, how did this happen etc.

I hope I explained this well enough so you can see where I am coming from.

Thanks.

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Cam-RT
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Cam-RT » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:46 am

Good Evening Finoh...

Aside from all these thoughts, where are they coming from?

What's driving them??
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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Finoh
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:02 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:24 am

Good evening Cam, by the way what time zone are you in or closest major city?

As far as where the thoughts are coming from, they are not coming from anywhere they are just arising. I am clear that I am not having them, they are not my thoughts. Many times during the day I notice periods of silence and then am aware of thoughts just arising and I have never been able to see where they are coming from. Occasionally I will sit in silence and wait for a thought to arise but am aware that the waiting has its own thought component. "Thoughts waiting for thought to arise".

I have no idea what is driving them maybe past experiences, previous history, upbringing DNA who knows, these are all just supposition on my part. I do know that often thoughts seem to feed off each other and generate other thoughts usually of the same miserable type.

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Finoh
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:55 pm

Cam this is just clarifying the previous post.
I do know that often thoughts seem to feed off each other and generate other thoughts usually of the same miserable type.
By this I mean a thought arises then often a sensation will occur in the body and the 'mind' will label it and then another thought will occur and the loop just goes on until something else breaks it, usually another thought and then often a whole new loop starts ad infinitum. The death of the body apparently ends this thought process.

Thanks.

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Cam-RT
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Cam-RT » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:14 pm

Good afternoon Finoh...

Reno, Nevada... Pacific time, We're so close to hell we can see Sparks!<----A little local humor, it's our neighboring town ;^)
As far as where the thoughts are coming from, they are not coming from anywhere they are just arising. I am clear that I am not having them, they are not my thoughts.
Very good! They just come and go...Just thought, no thinker required...



Touching base on thoughts feeding on them selfs... They're basically pulses of energy and need energy to survive, they crave attention to do so, if not yes they will do whats nessesary to survive...
The death of the body apparently ends this thought process.
Ahhhh....This is metaphorically how we're going to break the loop. You see that there's nothing behind or creating these thoughts...Right?

Breaking this loop requires " lettting go of the self" any and all identification or connection with this construct. Breaking it.... also can be called dieing before die.

Jed Mckenna once said one of the most profound and humbling experiences one can have, is witnessing the death of another person...

Before I begin to explain this, I want to stress that in fact there's nothing to fear, nor does this refer to the contemplation of suicide in any way...call it a disclaimer if you wish, but if done properly it can aid in liberation and in the understanding and interpretation of death..."You can try this at home." ;^)

Alright, now please attempt this uninterrupted...pick a quite time and spot...( preferably in a bed.) Okay, now "project" your self in the future (Don't pretend...but visualize this being as real as possible.) and you're approaching death, and alone in this exercise. (Not in a horrible situation.) You've lived a full life, and accepted the fact death is imminent....Now think....your body is weakening...Your breathing is waining...Your mind is letting go...  Tell me what you see...

Memento Mori... To live with death in front of us..
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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Finoh
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Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:31 am

I am going to do the 'death exercise' in the next 90 minutes and I will report back to you after I have done this unless of course I ascend to a higher level and don't get choked by a loose chakra.

I have actually died on 2 occasions over the last 3 years so as a result of this I have no fear or concerns about death. I had a religious friend ask me did I see any bright lights when I died I said no but all the Foxtell ads were annoying! Aussie humour the equivalent of a Sparks joke.

Cheers

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Cam-RT
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Cam-RT » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:45 am

Hey Finoh...

What we're focusing on is the transition into "nothing"...
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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Finoh
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:02 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:12 am

Well that was interesting especially ringing around funeral parlours asking if I could lie in one of their coffins for half an hour.

Getting back to business, what did I notice, not quite what I expected. I noticed that there was a gradual quieting down of thought until there appeared to be none and then there was a sense of peaceful silence or nothingness. No sense of apprehension or fear. It was as if everything ceased to exist. As some of the buddhists say you should die happy and peaceful. I prefer the 'die before you die' program.

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Cam-RT
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Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Cam-RT » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:59 am

Hello Finoh...
Well that was interesting especially ringing around funeral parlours asking if I could lie in one of their coffins for half an hour.
I hope you're pulling my leg...Otherwise the guy's at the funeral parlours probably think you LOST IT!!!

Speaking of loosing it...It appears that you did just that! (The self)
what did I notice, not quite what I expected. I noticed that there was a gradual quieting down of thought until there appeared to be none and then there was a sense of peaceful silence or nothingness. No sense of apprehension or fear. It was as if everything ceased to exist.
Beautiful!! ....So is there, and was there ever a YOU?

Except for the mind/brain and body....Does Finoh Exist??
The illusion isn't destroyed...Just seen for what it 'Is'
Thoughts vs. Reality----->Reality always wins.
"Have courage...Don't give up!!"

http://cam-rt.blogspot.com

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Finoh
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:02 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Ready, willing and hopefully able.

Postby Finoh » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:09 am

Cam,
Firstly I was pulling your leg as they say, although it would have been an interesting experience a bit like in India when they used to show advanced meditators dead bodies so that they got to realise impermanence.

Now the dilemma starts. ( This might be shoot yourself in the foot time..dilemma for who?)
Beautiful!! ....So is there, and was there ever a YOU?

Except for the mind/brain and body....Does Finoh Exist??
For the first part of the question
....was there ever a YOU?
The answer that jumps out is NO. For
Does Finoh Exist??
the same answer..NO. What pops up is if I give these answers I might get a confirmation that my search is over and "I" will feel I have gotten a "B" grade awakening not the full blown "A" grade with all the bells and whistles one. So where is the stuckness occurring or am I reading too much into this so far and I am jumping the gun.

I will post this now and think on it over night and I will more than likely add or clarify it in the morning.

Thanks for your support and being so indulgent.


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