Daiczech, this one is for you.

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:40 am

Let's have a chat. It works like this: I ask some questions, you look for answers and come back only when you are ready and answer with full honesty, like never before. It's up to you to look and engage fully. Let's start from simple introduction. :)

What brought you here and what do you expect?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
daiczech
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 am

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:53 am

What brought me here is a desire to live in a true understanding of what our basic existence is about. Already there is an intellectual acceptance that there is no "I" and there have been short-lived but important insights when the idea of "me" is seen as ridiculous, as a joke. It's a major error. There is too much thinking and too little living.
The drive to see the absence of self comes from within and could get confused with the idea that I am doing this - I'm not, but there is some fear and anxiety around as if I am trangressing on private property, knowing that the owner is waiting with a shotgun. So I'm alert and looking for traps.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:36 am

Haha about shotgun. No, there is no one there with shotgun...
Ok, so if I say: there is no separate self at all, no controller, no manager, nothing, except for life flowing freely.. what comes up?
What would be lost if that was true?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
daiczech
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 am

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:00 am

You ask what if there's no separate self, no manager.
The first thing that would be lost is any sense of autonomy, any vestige of free will. But the answer has come to me that as only an illusion would be lost, nothing would change and there would be as much (or as little) free will as there is now.
Yes, it's the fear of loss of control over life. Some anxiety rises here. "I" wants to be in control. How much control does it have right now? The same as in the future when the illusion of self dissolves, none.
If there's no separate self there are deep questions to be answered - what have I been doing all my life? raising a family, working year after year to improve our situation - the usual story. Didn't I choose that life?
I can see a blackbird in the garden. What you see is all that it is. It's full of life. It's obvious that when it dies its life will stop and it will return to the earth. It will be no more. It's an animated piece of nature, for a short time.
Comparing this to me, such a fate for me does not seem possible. Surely there is something else to my life, something to live on after my death - the separate self refuses to die?? Such an entity is not a reasonable possiblity but there is a strong reluctance to give it up.
This seems like nonsense to me but you asked for honesty about my thoughts and feelings.
At the moment there is no real sense of life flowing freely - more a sense of effort and frustration.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:41 am

thank you for answer. Yes, that little missunderstanding that is currently a default programing in human mind is making life appear as struggle.

So let's have a look if there realy is a controler, free will and all that comes with it.

Can you read this post, then close your eyes and do this little exercise:
just sit for a bit and notice the mind. thoughts coming and going..
can you trace thoughts to where are they coming from? can you control them? can you know what the next thought will be?

notice how thoughts are appearing as labels of experiance, for example- you hear a sound and thoughts rush to tell what it is, where it's coming from. there is a feeling, sensation, and thoughs are right behind labelling that. follow the breath and see what thoughts say about it, is there a breather, or just breathing happening by itself?

play with this with curiosity, forget all you know about thoughts and just take a fresh honest look at what is going on with them. write when you are ready.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
daiczech
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 am

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:36 pm

Can you read this post, then close your eyes and do this little exercise:
just sit for a bit and notice the mind. thoughts coming and going..
can you trace thoughts to where are they coming from? can you control them? can you know what the next thought will be?
notice how thoughts are appearing as labels of experiance, for example- you hear a sound and thoughts rush to tell what it is, where it's coming from. there is a feeling, sensation, and thoughs are right behind labelling that. follow the breath and see what thoughts say about it, is there a breather, or just breathing happening by itself?
Thoughts come up like bubbles of water to the surface. Some are in response to outside stimuli, some from bodily feelings, some are just spontaneous and the source can't be seen or traced.
It seems that I can slow down the processing of a thought at the point where the thought turns into words. The thought can be re-worked and developed. What is happening here? Has the thought already happened and the words are just dressing it up? This is still a bit of a grey area. Perhaps there is no control over thoughts as any effort to influence their course springs from another thought/feeling over which there is no control.
Can I know what the next thought will be? Never. I've really tried.
Yes, many thoughts are labels stuck on after the event. Clearly the case when there is a sudden stimulus. But how about thinking when for example learning a foreign language? Or doing maths? Is this just process? How about when considering how to answer your questions? Is it just response to stimulus? Another grey area.

Just breathing, no breather.

User avatar
daiczech
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 am

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:14 pm

Have had a good look at my grey areas about thinking. Yes, there seem to be different types of thinking that go on but you might well ask "Does any of them need a thinker"? That's the real question. Still working on it but the answer is going to be "No" - have to work through the resisitance to this idea.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:23 pm

ok, now let's look at the labels themselves.
take a word chair, it points to a real thing chair, and there is no doubt that it's not a table.
so there are words that point to real things around, like hand, monitor, table, window.

now look at word school. is there such things as school? or group of things, including buildings, people, books, descs, computers and so on that make up a school. we use label School, so we can talk about it, but there is no such thing. it's a label. a concept.

and now look at word Batman. is there a batman to be found in real life? it's an imaginary character, that we are all familiar with, but it's just a label...

inspect words 'I', 'self', 'me'. is there such thing in real life as me, or is it just a label?

play with this, see how different labels either point to real things, that can be touched and felt, while some other words point to imaginary stuff. can you see the difference?

now look around the room and oberve, how first brain registers things, sounds, sensations and labels follow.
what do you notice?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:24 pm

Have had a good look at my grey areas about thinking. Yes, there seem to be different types of thinking that go on but you might well ask "Does any of them need a thinker"? That's the real question. Still working on it but the answer is going to be "No" - have to work through the resisitance to this idea.
that's fine, we will get through this aparent grey area... just keep looking with fresh eye, rather than comparing what you see to what it should be like.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
daiczech
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 am

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:46 pm

I'm confident of seeing the difference between a real object, a concept, and an illusion - unless it's the illusion of self!

Ilona wrote: inspect words 'I', 'self', 'me'. is there such thing in real life as me, or is it just a label?[/quote]

If "me" could be seen as just a label wouldn't we be nearly done?
"I" is just a thought or label but there is great attachment to it. What will happen if that I is really as just a label? There is insecurity, anxiety, resistance. The I cannot be pinpointed. It has no substance. If this body and all its contents gets up and walks downstairs then the I attaches to this and pretends it's me that is doing it.
Need to check this out at length.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:56 pm

Ok, let's carry on.
I is just another label..

Look:
I breathe- instead of breathing is happening.
I smile- instead of smile is happening
I walk- instead of walking is going on by itself
I hear- is there a hearer?
I taste- is it the I tasting or is it just a sensation of taste experience?
I read- is there a reader?
I think- is there a thinker?
I wash dishes- is there a washer?
I pee- is there a pee-er?

Can you see how I is just another word that precedes other words because of the way that language is constructed.

What are the observations here?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
daiczech
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 am

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:04 pm

now look around the room and oberve, how first brain registers things, sounds, sensations and labels follow.
what do you notice?
I notice that the brain registers things first, then labels them. Then thoughts start and a story may start. For example, I look at a guitar, its label leaps to mind, but so does wife (who plays it), music and any other sort of loose connection that wants to join in.
There is no looking without words and thoughts.
Can you see how I is just another word that precedes other words because of the way that language is constructed.
What are the observations here?[/quote]

It is interesting that I is the first person, presumably because the speaker would see themselves as the most important element in the world, you are second person because you are in the same conversation but not on my level of importance, while he/she/they are third person because they are a further remove from the centre of the universe, which is I.
The illusion of I points to the egocentric nature of people in general, including me at this point. I is habit, it is illusion, it is desperate to survive, it is a fom of speech. On the other hand, there is a movement towards seeing the truth and it is very strong.

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:11 pm

awesome. especialy about the movement to see what is true.
yes, I is an illusion.

is it trying to survive? nope, that is another illusion. these are just thoughts passing by effortlesly..
look- i need to survive<-- that is just a thought, which is equal to I am going to die.. - just another though..

imagine, there is this kid and he believes in santa, that santa is this magical friend, that lives up north and reads everyones letters... nice story.
now a friend tells the kid, that there is no such thing as santa, it's a lie, parents are the ones that bring pressents.

look at santa, is he bothered? is he trying to survive at this point? does he exist?? haha, same that I. it's not fighting, it's not gonna die, and nothing will change because of it being seen for what it is- imaginary friend...

we never question the existance of 'me' as that is common sense- i am me.
see if you can find either of them other that in thoughts.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

User avatar
daiczech
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 am

Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:53 am

Well, Ilona, I can't find I or me except in my thoughts. I look at my body and wonder is this me or mine and the answer comes as another question - are you in control of this body, do you manage it and its functions? ....No.
I look at my thoughts - impossible if there's no I and no my - and the only place that I can exist is in my head, behind my eyes. As sight is the major access mode for phenomena and all the everyday things of life it would be natural if the sense of self lurks there, attaching to anything that comes into the brain and labelling it as its own, adding words and thoughts as events unfold.
I love your point about Santa - what does he do if we stop believing? What does the self do if we stop believing in it?
It's not there to do anything, is it?
A minor insight this a.m. before breakfast. Thought of favourite pot of marmalade. The thought came "What would happen if you ate the label? - Don't be silly, it's only a label. The real stuff is inside."

User avatar
Ilona
Site Admin
Posts: 6027
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:20 am

Hihi about the label and the jam.
Well that's how all words are- labels. The real stuff is behind them. Unreal too.

Can you look now at daizcech. See that is also a label. But there is a character behind it. With all the likes and dislikes and ways of action, conditioning, programming all that.
Can you look at character and describe what you see. Is there an actor, director, manager needed for the role to be playing out? Can you look from a point of view of different characters and see what daiczech is for them, how is seen through different eyes. notice, that it's all just stories.

Watch the play and answer me, is there any function for I in the play? Does the play need a me? Can story go on by itself?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 11 guests