The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

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The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:54 am

Hi,

I would love to start this work with a guide. I have got to know about this site and community through a friend and immediately knew that now I have encountered something of value and significance. I have read the book "Gateless..", some threads and Ilona's blog so I have got the overall idea of the process. There's willingness on my part to look at Truth honestly and stick to Looking as long as there's Seeing.

I have felt being spiritually stagnant for quite some time, and humbly hope that this one-to-one work would bring my spiritual search to its end.

I have no great expectations of "Liberation". It seems that it would be the most natural and simple way of living without the burden of "Me" and its constant seeking of something that is not there in this present moment. Hope that there would be more inspired and creative living without all false self imposed limitations.

Would you be my guide?

With much gratitude,

mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:02 pm

Welcome, Mag, sounds like you've done some work already. Great!
You say you've felt spiritually stagnant.
That implies a lot of work and living around spiritual teachings or practices.

Can you relate what expectations of awakening and enlightenment you've picked up from those? It's surprising how many linger :-) as we go through this process, so we just lay them out at the beginning and keep an eye on them.

And, what thoughts or feelings does this bring up?
There is no you.

You can write as much as you like, post once a day, more if it's indicated, and if you do your best to be honest and only write what is observed in experience, not any second hand stuff, it is very helpful. I'll do the same.
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:43 pm

Hi Elizabeth,

I'm so happy that you found my thread!

About expectations.....

I have no grandiose expectations of the moment when waking to reality. In my thinking it could be a really subtle shift of perception. But there should be certainty that "something is different". Earlier I thought that waking up should be accompanied by opening of chakras or something, but don't think that way necessarily now. Some accounts of awakening - that I have read - were really dramatic and there was physical pain in head etc. I guess it could be that way too, but most likely it isn't. Many expressions of waking to Reality :-)

My belief is that, after Realization, this body-mind organism continues living pretty much the same way as before the incident. Realization is an end of suffering in a sense that there is no sufferer, "I", anymore. There will be problems to solve, hardships and negative emotions encountered as before. Probably there is somewhat less mental chatter since much of that commonly circles around this "I" that is no more.

"There is no you."

My first feeling: it would be a relief to have no "me", no belief in "I". Life would be simpler. Just living.

Scanning my body if there is any contractions while keeping "There is no you" -thought with me... Hmmm... Nothing that much I could perceive. Breathing happening, warmth perceived in limbs.... the body is quite relaxed..... would be nice to relax fully into "There is no you". But it's obvious that I still believe that I exist at some level, otherwise the work would be over.

Much love,

Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:15 am

Hi Mag, thanks for the thorough reply, looks like not too many illusions or fears around awakening, easy to get started!
If anything comes up that bothers a you, feel free to write about it. We are examining thoughts, beliefs, and emotions, so it's all grist for the mill.

Let's look at how an illusion puts itself together.
-Sitting with a cup of coffee, can you tell me what makes it a YOUR cup?
-And if you gave that cup to someone else, how could you remove it's attachment to a you? What would make it a HER cup?
-Lastly, would the cup be in any way changed by this series of events?

Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:10 am

The coffee cup scenario:

1) It's "my" cup because these hands - that the body-mind is conditioned to maintain as "my hands" - are holding the cup. "My hands" is an illusion since how a thought "me" could have "hands" in the first place, looks like an artificial marriage of intangible (a thought) and tangible (a body part).... it's bizarre :)

2) the attachment would be not there when it's seen that instead of this pair of hands holding the cup it's now that other pair of hands holding the cup, no "me" or "my hands" lurking anywhere

3) the cup has been intact regardless whether it has been hold by "these" or "those other" hands

Love and blessings,

Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:23 pm

The coffee cup scenario:

1) It's "my" cup because these hands - that the body-mind is conditioned to maintain as "my hands" - are holding the cup. "My hands" is an illusion since how a thought "me" could have "hands" in the first place, looks like an artificial marriage of intangible (a thought) and tangible (a body part).... it's bizarre :)

2) the attachment would be not there when it's seen that instead of this pair of hands holding the cup it's now that other pair of hands holding the cup, no "me" or "my hands" lurking anywhere

3) the cup has been intact regardless whether it has been hold by "these" or "those other" hands

Love and blessings,

Mag
Ah, thanks, Mag. Looking at the label MY cup, vs the reality: no matter what label, or where placed, the cup is not a possession. Nor is it changed by a thought of possession, in reality.
Just to be clear, which is more true, a MY cup or A cup?
In fact, you seem to be questioning the possession of a body! MY body, or A body?
What would claim a body? MY hands, MY choice to move these hands? Because it seems we do make these claims, all the time.
What happens in thought when hands move to the keyboard, typing happens? What happens in reality? Are they different?
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:03 pm

Ah, thanks, Mag. Looking at the label MY cup, vs the reality: no matter what label, or where placed, the cup is not a possession. Nor is it changed by a thought of possession, in reality.
Yes, I agree.... a cup is just "a cup" regardless of our thought of possession about it.
Just to be clear, which is more true, a MY cup or A cup?
A cup, indeed.
In fact, you seem to be questioning the possession of a body! MY body, or A body?
A body. No ownership.
What would claim a body? MY hands, MY choice to move these hands? Because it seems we do make these claims, all the time.
True, the tendency to claim the body or the decision to move it is obvious.
What happens in thought when hands move to the keyboard, typing happens? What happens in reality? Are they different?
In thought, the mind labels: 'my hands typing'. This seems to happen semi-automatically unless one is attentive. In reality, it's of course just "fingers typing".

"My hands typing": an observation from the center of "I".
"Fingers typing": an observation without the center of "I".

Yours,

Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:33 pm

Mag,
Nice!
" thought, the mind labels: 'my hands typing'. This seems to happen semi-automatically unless one is attentive. In reality, it's of course just "fingers typing".

"My hands typing": an observation from the center of "I".
"Fingers typing": an observation without the center of "I"."

Where are these thoughts and observations coming from? One from an apparent center, and one from....?
So I'm asking two things:
What is a self? Really?
What is not a self? Can it observe?
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:42 am

Where are these thoughts and observations coming from? One from an apparent center, and one from....?
The first observation is from the center of imaginary "I", the "me" in dream, "Forgetful Self".

The second observation is coming from.... let's say.... An Attentive Self, still imaginary, doing all these awareness practices and trying to solve the problem of self.
So I'm asking two things: What is a self? Really?

A self is allways a thought, regardless of the self in question: "Forgetful Self", "Attentive Self"... or even "Enlightened Self".
What is not a self? Can it observe?
So, if I perceive "a self" of any kind as a thought above, then the question "what is not a self", sounds like as asking what is not a thought (of human mind). Reality? Existence, without a human mind intervening in any way?

Can it observe? Can reality observe? Observing seems to require a centre from which to observe. A mind is observer. Reality can't observe. Reality is.

Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:06 am

While waiting to your next question, let me think / speculate aloud...

"I" am dead.... or better, since there's some aliveness and personal in "am"..... so just: "I" is dead, "I" was never alive anywhere else than in imagination, in belief. All references in previous messages above where "I" perceives or observes or anything else, are false.... false references to fiction, a fairy tale, a Big Lie and they show where "forgetfulness" was happening, where imaginative self raised its head. The mind does those things (perceives, observes, etc) and they happen on their own without need of "I" to be involved as a referential point. "I" could be not involved in any case, since it's not existing in the first place. When I (a convention of communication, in reality: mind) read(s) this text that I'm (a convention again) writing now...... there was slipped still one referential "I-doing" in the beginning: "let me think". I'm non-existing, dead, I never thought anything. Mind does thinking. Thinking happens. Thoughts appear and disappear.

So, there's urgency of realizing above to be true, really True, "I" non-existing. From where comes the urgency? The Urgent Self? Urgency is not an attribute of reality. OK. It's of vital importance to realize..... Is 'vital importance' any more necessary an attribute of reality.. or just something that a sense of self has formed around. How about: I could care not less :-)

There seems to be constant battle between non-identification and identification ("I" raises its head). How to break the identification mechanism? How to pull the root of the weed out of the ground? To see once clearly.....

Grateful for your questions.

Much Love,

Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:45 pm

Yes, it gets twisty, doesn't it? Let's go back a step and allow it to be simple. So simple it floors most of us.
Remember the cup? How we looked at which was true-er, which might be said to be closer to reality:
calling it a MY cup, or A cup.
You asked what the selfing mechanism was. Much of it resides in that simple observation.
A you sticks a MY, or a YOURS on everything. That is a possessive act. Much encouraged, as you have noticed, by language construction, which reflects beautifully how we mentally construct and maintain a self.
And then the customs of ownership, seldom questioned. You and I probably own a few people :-) like a MY father or a MY child.
Heartfelt biological ties. And an I at the center of a complicated social world. What a great way to calculate and model self-interest, relationships!
Just a tad overdone. All we are doing here is looking at how that has been constructed. Knowing it for what it is.
We have a lot of thoughts ABOUT what belongs to us. That constitute much of an I-dentity.
Does identity make a solid core, or is it a shifty, twisty thing? Please look at all the things a you thought it was over the years. Anything solid at all? Anything that didn't change, or couldn't?
Perhaps the only constant is the labeling? Please check. It's very personal, till it's not.

Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:35 pm

Remember the cup? How we looked at which was true-er, which might be said to be closer to reality:
calling it a MY cup, or A cup. You asked what the selfing mechanism was. Much of it resides in that simple observation.
Yes, and through these two eyes, MY view. From where came the label "MY" like a sticker on the eye glasses through which looking everything, constantly reminding "MY, MY, MY....". Life's ultimately, without negotiation impersonal... even if the false self whispers agenda of its own.
Does identity make a solid core, or is it a shifty, twisty thing? Please look at all the things a you thought it was over the years. Anything solid at all?
Yes, I can see the series of labels and self formations all through childhood, youth, adulthood and the seeker identity too.
Anything that didn't change, or couldn't?
No, just identity in constant move.
Perhaps the only constant is the labeling? Please check. It's very personal, till it's not.
Yes, the labeling mechanism seems to be the only constant if don't count the background of everything here.

Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:20 pm

Hi Mag, great, we've hacked through some of the filtering mechanism already.
Let's look at this:
"Yes, the labeling mechanism seems to be the only constant if don't count the background of everything here."

-What constitutes a background? Or a foreground? Can a you really stand and look from either of those places?
Are these real, or thoughts ABOUT reality?
Another thought that separates objects from the whole? An I from the whole? My cup from all cups?

-In fact, let's also look at thoughts, tripping through, spinning tales of ABOUT. How do they appear, when you actually LOOK? Give me a sense of where they appear to come from, reside, and pass away to...and what do they seem to be ABOUT, mainly?
-Any gaps?

This might take a day to do thoroughly. It's very interesting to pay attention to how, in everyday life, thoughts arise, and when. And why?

Love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:46 pm

-What constitutes a background? Or a foreground? Can a you really stand and look from either of those places? Are these real, or thoughts ABOUT reality?
Another thought that separates objects from the whole? An I from the whole? My cup from all cups?
By background I referred to (by using this seeker's habitual spiritual terminology) "singular awareness" that we all share (a belief). But it's of course a concept which is not a part of reality what so ever.
-In fact, let's also look at thoughts, tripping through, spinning tales of ABOUT. How do they appear, when you actually LOOK? Give me a sense of where they appear to come from, reside, and pass away to...and what do they seem to be ABOUT, mainly? -Any gaps?
1) Thoughts circling around "me", all that usual stuff.... trying to secure good conditions for the 'me' of a future moment. It would be nice for the 'me' to have good quality living conditions, leisurely life pace and sufficiently good food to eat. 'Me' never eats anything, it's just the mouth, and the body digesting. 'Me' also concerned about the impact of choices it does (or it doesn't) on its life circuimstances. ('Me' does not choose anything, that's difficult to accept). If I would just drop my work (which I feel is not so well aligned with this body-mind and its aspirations), how universe would support this being. 'Me' concerned about doing 'wrong' life decisions based on faulty assumptions.

2) the rest of thoughts seem to be mostly about some things that need attention in immediate environment.

The first category of thoughts are absolutely unnecessary, not needed, none.

When I was sitting in the morning silently and observing what is the first thought that would be appearing, it was the thought "don't forget 'local market'), a reminder of action that I had planned the previous day "to buy some stuff from the local market". Soon after I got going since it was something I needed to do early in the morning (the day before I went too late and missed some produce that I went looking for).

The mind seems to be quiet when just sitting peacefully here. There's more "me-circling" conscious thoughts when in dynamic movement, in hurry. I just read this Gurdjief quotation for the first time: "Move quickly, but inside never rush". This 'me' may have a preference for looking during contemplative calm moments rather than in movement, as a part of a busy daily life. But it's about this body-mind organism's programming too, being grown up in a fairly calm home environment and having led a meditative life style for years.

Thoughts seem to rise out of blue, in this space, and dissolve on their own, like they never had been there. Ideally, appearing thoughts nor feelings would be no not forming into a sense of self, but this seems to be not the case allways in practice. During comtemplative silent moments this works fine, no residue, nothing sticking.
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Hi, and nice looking. That darn market list has intruded on many a meditation here, too :-)

-Where does the possessive component come in on thoughts?
Does it come in on all thoughts, already owning them (MY vegetables), or seem to be an after-thought? Vegetables, which must be MINE?
Does one possessive thought entrain another? Support it? Start a long narrative?

-Are the thoughts, really, encircling a me? I notice the words directly point to this belief in a core self.
Are the words pointing to anything within this circle? Try and find it, we need to really check it out. No belief here, we test these assumptions by looking.
And, please entertain the possibility, after looking carefully at the centre that all these thoughts are assumed to encircle, that there is nothing BUT the thoughts. About. Like all thoughts. Could this really be true? Does the evidence so far support that?

-And of course, please consider, does the story and movie and comic of Batman mean the guy is hanging out on a darkened building, brooding?
What, if anything, does Mag and Batman share?

Thanks for being so faithful and sincere in your inquires, Mag. A pleasure, here. Love, E.


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