nonaparry Vítejte Pavel. Chápete, co tu děláme?
Pavel Hi Nona, I understand that you help those who ask for that, to see the truth of who they are.
Pavel I read some of the Gateless Gatecrashers...
nonaparry What we do is guide those who come to see through the illusion of self.
How may we serve you?
Pavel Im looking for a guide who can help with it.
nonaparry Are you happy to continue in English?
Pavel Češtinu jsem tu nečekal, trochu mě překvapila... Vy umíte česky?
Pavel But anyway I'm happy with English too :)
nonaparry I don't speak Czech; my children do.
nonaparry We can begin if you are happy to continue with me in English. The requirements here are:
1. Your complete and total honesty.
2. Your personal responsibility in engaging fully.
If you don't feel comfortable to engage 100% here on facebook, you may register at our forum http://liberationunleashed.com/nation and open a thread there.
The Gate • Index page
avel Dvořáček Wow nice :)) I'm suprised. Yeah, I'm fine with English. I've registered to the forum as well, but then I decided to come here on FB (Though I was a bit nervous about it). Yes, I'm honoured to continue with you.
nonaparry What thoughts, feelings, fears, arise when I tell you there is no "you" at all. That "me", "I", "self" are merely thoughts with no real existence?
Pavel Right now it's curiosity, a big question mark... I hear my heart beating... there is a fear of being exposed, being as if naked... and then what? There is a fear of not being seen as I see myself. Then there is also a kind of pushing inside, a desire to know, It's saying something like "hey how is it then, you must fing out!!"
nonaparry You say "...I see myself..." Who/what is this "I" that sees its "self"? Please describe in detail.
Pavel Difficult… I don't know how to describe, I'm confused, but what or who is it that is confused?? It's actually the nakedness itself that is scary for me… but for whom?
It's a picture of "me", "I" want to show to others. It's an image composed of thoughts about "myself", hahaha… it is complicating itself.
My head is getting overloaded...
nonaparry Okay. Close your eyes, then point with the finger of your hand to "me". Open your eyes and look at what the finger is pointing to. Describe what you see when you look where finger is pointing.
Pavel The finger is pointing somewhere to the middle of the chest/ heart of my physical body, but when I keep looking there and say "me", it's like an echo responding "me?! ok, whatever you say.."
It seems like if there is no looking for the "I - me", there is no such thing.
There are some feelings, there is peace, emptiness, space, joy, a real taste of joy, mmm... nice
It is actually a finger pointing to the emptiness.
nonaparry So finger points to chest. Look at your chest. Is there a "me" there at all? Check it. If yes, what does it look like, how is it connected to chest?
Pavel In the chest there are feelings… I don't see any "me" to describe, just thoughts and feelings. There are thoughts, like "c'mon, there must be something, you always point there, when you say me", there is confusion, frustration, anger..
nonaparry Good. So LOOK at that thought. What do you SEE. Look with your eyes at the thought. Describe it.
Pavel It's more like many thoughs jumping up shouting "me me me" and hiding again, hard to catch just one.. none is real "me",… they are catching my attention, like the screens of the movie, but there is no movie now..
nonaparry Okay, so I say LOOK with your eyes, and instead of looking you are thinking, attending to thoughts.
"when you say me", there is confusion, frustration, anger.." What are these protecting? Look behind them, look behind the distractions, and check what they are hiding.
Pavel Hahaha right.. it's an alarm, mobilization of thinking.
They are hiding fear ("I don't want to see"), the body reacts with tension.
I see the thinking and the attantion sliping to it over and over..
Not easy to keep the eyes looking, the thinking is like a fog.
nonaparry Yes! Good to notice!!
nonaparry So what do you fear would/might happen if/when you SEE?? Make a list.
Pavel Ok, I will. It's a bedtime here. I will come back tomorrow. Thank you for now Nona.
Pavel Not being recognized as good enough, to be enough spiritual, not being "special", different then others, not having anything to offer, being needless, no use, false. Loosing the drug of thinking, the drunkeness of it. Loosing the ilusion of enlightement as something special I can search for that will make a superhuman. There will be anything I can add to myself, to make me interesting, different, special, wanted, appreciated...
I'll be ashamed of not being of not being seen as others want to see me. Being just ordinary. Not able to relate with "normal" people, play their games, becoming a social outcast. I die as "me", as what I know. I die to what I know. I'm affraid of the unknown.
I'm affraid that I won't see… that I won't have enough time to make it (get awakened), to see,… I won't make it, I'll fail. I'm affraid of failure.
nonaparry Excellent!! You've identified quite a number of stressful thoughts there.
Being "Special" was also one of my great desires!
The experience here is that the only way we can fail to see through the illusion of a separate self is by not looking.
It appears you have some expectations of this process that may not be accurate. Do you think enlightenment will make you superhuman? There are arguments as to whether seeing no self is enlightenment or not, but what becomes clear is there is no self to be special or enlightened. At all. No self to be added to, made uninteresting. No self to be different, special, wanted, appreciated. No self to be spiritual.
And any of those stressful thoughts that persist through the gate can be examined and seen through, just as the thought "I" can be examined and seen through.
So take a fear and look straight at it. Look behind the fear and see what's there. What exactly is the fear protecting?
Notice that fear is a useful protective mechanism that helps us to not do dangerous things, like walking off cliffs, or seeing that we don't actually exist as separate selves.
Pavel Hahaha yes, I had some expectations, including the superhuman, etc… they are not as strong as they used to be, but the thoughts are still there.
It's actually a great relief that there is no self to be special ... The body's relaxing, breathing gets deeper, smile on the face, freedom of trying to do the mission impossible… adding something to something which doesn't exist… GREAT relief hahaha
The fear, in it's pure form, creates reactions in the body, like sudden stop, instinctive movements, it is protecting the body - head, organs,... It helps the body to survive. It mobilizes whole organism.
Some of the fears specifically:
Pavel Fear of "not being special"… it's stressy, trying to accomplish something… what's behind it?... more fears! Huh, that's crazy!!! What are they protecting?... The identity of Pavel, the image of him. Can't see anything behind the image, it's like an emty dress. No one in it.
Fear of "the unknown"… behind it there is excitement, energy, wilderness behind it, adventure, taste of wild free life… LIFE, FREEDOM, HAPPYNESS… What is it protecting? The "known" world, lazyness, comfort zone
Fear of being ashamed… feelings of loneliness, abandonment, bad social experiences… Protecting? Again the ID of Pavel, a bunch of thoughts how the image should look like.
Fear of failure… ability to distinguish things and situations, to estimate the power needed, possibilities,… Protecting? Judging. Excuses for not trying something new.
Fear of not having enough time… stress, manipulation, postponing, fear of death… Protecting? Motivation to act now. No thinking just do it.
Fear of death… sadness, loneliness, fear of pain… Protecting? The unknown, the naked truth of dying, the final adveture.
Wow, some of the fears are hiding real treasures! And there is a joy in doing all this "investigation" :))
nonaparry Yay! Good work!!
nonaparry So look at this identity, "Pavel". What is it exactly? Point to the identity with your finger. What is it?
Is the identity "Pavel" fearing? Doing? Breathing? Looking?
Pavel NO!! There is no such thing or person. It is just a name in the ID card or here on FB. It's like a profile… couple of photos, funny pictures, original and recycled thoughts and ideas, reposted videos,… Same in the real world… a body with a specific face, thoughts (mostly caught in an organ called brain), feelings and sensations felt in the body. Sounds "Pavel" being shoutet at this physical body (or at phone) addressing this person, which is not really there.
Yes, there is "fearing", not at the moment, but no Pavel is seen any closer.
There is "doing", right now typing on the keyboard, fingers are doing the job, and some system is translating the thoughts into words and into finger movements, and the results are controled by eyes watching the monitor, then the signal goes back to the brain, corrections are made… with no Pavel running around.
"Breathing"… ooohhh what a pleasure, a nice deep inbreath… no Pavel needed, and definitely no Pavel there during the sleeping.
"Looking" and seeing is just happening… with no director named Pavel.
In a way the finger could point anywhere with the same result… no one is there and yet there is always something. (for example to the monitor showing the FB profile). Everything can be named Pavel or it can be called "I - me". It doesn't make any change to it.
nonaparry Really good noticing!!
So you see that Life is simply happening with no need for a doer, a breather, a thinker, a typer, a reader, a looker, a see-er...
You say "thoughts (mostly caught in an organ called brain)." Get 100% honest here. Is there actually an experience of thoughts caught in a brain? Can you feel a brain, feel or see it catch thoughts? What does a caught thought look like? Or are you reporting something you've been told or read but not directly experienced? How do you know it's true?
Do you directly experience a system "translating the thoughts into words and into finger movements"? Or is the typing simply happening with no system needed to translate thoughts into movement?
Do the "eyes watching the monitor" have control over "the results", or is seeing, thinking, reading, interpreting all happening outside of any apparent control? Check it!
Pavel Yes, it is all just happening and it's totally independent on the names and knowing of it (the breathing is happening while sleeping… there isn't anybody who "knows" it or "sees" it). The thought that "thoughts are controled by brain" is just a thought, that is took over and not directly experienced. No! No, feeling or seeing of brain at all!
Yes, right! The 100% honesty is really important in this!! The thoughts simply appear, they are seen, they are suddenly here, exposed, naked, they are not even rushing anywhere (there is no anywhere else).
No, no direct experiencing of a "translating system", it was another fancy looking thought and a blind spot.
It is various happenings, which can be seen, happening at the same moment, now. No eyes having control over it.
Thank you for pointing at the blind spots :)) it's nice to look around properly.
nonaparry 1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Please answer in detail.
Pavel No "me" can be seen, touched, experienced, sensed, felf,… nothing there.
There is a voice saying (if pronounced loud) "me", which is pointg to a variable group of happenings, thoughts, feelings, fears, sensations, the body,... whatever else is there that can be seen, experienced, felf,… "the real stuff".
There is only a label (a picture) saying "me", but has no contens, no "flesh and bones", no real existence.
Was there ever? There was the misunderstanding, attachement to thoughts fueled and covered by fears, attachement to the idea of "I", which is/was not there…
nonaparry 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Pavel What the illusion of separate self is?
The illusion of separate self is a lazyness to simply look and see. It is a false belief, which is not questioned, to be recognized as a belief and not something else.
The illusion is a fog covering the sun of seeing, a frog sitting on the spring (in more imaginary expression).
It is a bad habit to look at the world through glasses... automatically without any suspicion,... with these glasses seeing is not clear and direct. There is permanent distraction of attention to look to wrong places, and don't look long enough to see the truth of it.
When it starts? How it works?
The illusion of self starts with education. When the child gets persuaded by the adults and starts to believe in the false identity of "I". Believe, that he/she should be somehow separated, different then "others". That there are some advantages to feel separate and dangers in being innocent (not separate). Identification happens... with body, thoughts, emotions. Children to be considered prepared for school are asked to draw "themselves"!!
The illusion of self gets activated in many ways… by fear, by judgement, by approval, by achievement, by different words, by thoughts, by feelings, by emotions. Attachement appears… identification with a belief.
Our language, our communication, supports the illusion of separate self. "I" is almost in every sentence. The language keeps "The Legend of I" alive. (The "I" is a legend, everybody is talking about it but nobody has really seen it. :))
nonaparry 3) How does it feel to see this? How is the feeling after seeing different from before?
Pavel It is a strange new feeling, exciting, not totally unkwnon only very fresh. Some moments there are feelings of sweetness, joy, happyness, love, excitement, calmness… other moments are ordinary. At some moments the thoughts are storming, another they are still… Everything is more alive then before.
Sometimes it is difficult to remember how it was before…
Experiencing of meeting people is more direct then before… it is simply straight - seeing, hearing, thinking, feelings and sensations, etc. How deep is the experience depends on focus.
When meditating, there is direct experience of what is there is there. No one is doing it, no one is trying to meditate, trying to see or feel something. There are still expectations of a specific experience, but they are just expectations nothing more or less.
Sometimes it's difficult to find words to describe something. The habit to use "I", "me",etc. is strong, but usually there is another way to express it… a playful, creative way.
The body needs sleeping as before, there is just much more excitement and aliveness.
nonaparry 4) How would you describe it to somebody who was interested but has never heard about this illusion?
Pavel The truth seen in Google mail and Internet:
There are messages coming and going - thoughts, feelings, sensations, experiences,…
Some emails have attachements - with stories, pictures, beliefs
Messages arrive to Inbox - awareness, they are there, waiting to be read
Now the Labels can be created to sort the messages, for example "Personal" - the emails are the same, still in inbox, but now some of them a labeled as "Personal".
Now, if you delete all the labeled emails, only empty label "Personal" is left, having no meaning and existence of its own.
But if you delete the label, the emails are still there, it has no effect on them. Another label can be created, with another name marking the same or other messages.
All emails are on the internet - the nature of all things, the presence, there is everything there, everything is going on there, from there everything arises, into it everything disappears, everything is in it, everything is it, nothing can be outside of it, nothing can be separate.
And then there is reading and recognizing of all these emails, happenings
See what is real in all this and what is unreal...
Pavel Everything real can be sooner or later found, it may need some time, focus, patience, proper method, technology or machine.
For "I - self" people were searching their whole lives and what did they found?
It is not there! Not real! Not anywhere! What is real in this moment? Check it, see if it's true or not. No believing is needed, just seeing, watching, questioning what appears on the screen, recognizing the real and unreal.
In case you don't understand all this, relax. It's totally fine, you can't understatnd, because "you" don't exist!
nonaparry 5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Pavel The need for truth, hunger for it, longing to see… the help of the guide/ guides… (seen like a light coming)
The questions keeping the focus, reminder to be 100% honest!!!
Thank you soo much Nona!! And all the guides here on LU.Such a wonderful world…
nonaparry I will ask other guides to look and maybe ask you some clarifying questions.
nonaparry You are confirmed. Sending you a PM.
This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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