who is next for a chat?

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Ilona
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who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:09 pm

Come in, don't be shy, show your self. :)
Truth realized will set you free.
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nothinker
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby nothinker » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:01 pm

I'm up for this. Let's do it.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Ilona
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who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:49 pm

Awesome, nothinker. Great to meet you :)
What brought you here? How did you find us and what do you expect?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby nothinker » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:03 pm

Hey, thanks so much for doing this. I have been a seeker for all my life, and every time someone asks me what kind of answer I am trying to find, I would be speechless. It's like I don't know exactly what I am looking for -- there's just this longing to learn more, to know more, and the hope that the journey would lead me to the discovery of what to do in this world. Along the way I have run into legends about the enlightenment thing, how it would free us from the fundamental illusions of humanity and alleviate suffering and give access to a kind of wisdom and clarity that has no equal. All the enlightened masters I have read about all say that there is nothing in this world more important than this great work, so I was very excited. I have been chasing after this thought and that thought for a long time, and in the end they were just interpretations. I have yet to find anything that would be my contribution to the world, so naturally I am dying for the real thing.

I was referred to RT from dharmaoverground.org. Reading the Brutal Beginnings was the biggest mindfuck I have ever experienced. There's just something there that I cannot bring myself to ignore, but no matter how many times I had tried to look, I'm still not free. I guess I didn't push it enough or something.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Ilona
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:31 pm

hi Nothinker.

I see. me too, i was looking and looking untill one day i faced this one little thing: there is really no self at all. There is no you, look... that one sentence grabbed me and i started really looking if it's true. ( it is...)

it seems almost too simple, but let's have a look together, I will help you through this.
tell me is there a me, a controller, that has a fuction to manage the brain, body, thoughts, feelings? how does that controler makes comands? where does it live? is it possible that there is no controller at all? if so, what is here?

let's see what you got...
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby nothinker » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:53 pm

I can see that a lot of things happen without anybody giving a command -- breathing, walking, seeing, hearing, and perhaps thinking too. But to think that there is no controller at all, in any sense, just feels wrong. I mean I get it that there is no me outside of reality that is making the decision to think or to type, and there's nobody deciding hey I'm going to feel bliss right now, I'm going to feel cold right now, because all that is, is the interaction of this one flowing life. I get that.

Even so, there's a sense that I am the thing that these thoughts and sensations are happening to. I have heard that these things are not personal, but dammit, nobody else seems to hear my thought or feel what I feel. They seem very personal to me.

Okay, done some further looking. It is possible that there is no controller at all. I admit I can't find it anywhere. Is it possible, though, that I am the awareness that cannot be observed? Oh, I am so lost.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Ilona
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:19 pm

it's going great, Nothinker.
and no, you are not awareness. no. it's a common belief.
does awareness need a 'me' to be aware? look at an animal, if you have a pet, observe it. the animal is very allert and aware of it's enviroment. is there an I in it's thinking? awareness is aware and that is it's function. formless spacious not bound to a body..

does experience require experiencer? look right here..
what do sensations are happening to? notice- sensation happens, mind labels an you get an illusion of senser.
notice when you get an itch, scratch follows. what is that itch happening to? does it need a scratcher?

can you see where i'm pointing to? is there a seer?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby nothinker » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:48 pm

I feel like I see it, and then it keeps slipping away.

I can wrap my head around the no-seer and no-experiencer thing, but no controller? That shit is just... I don't know. It seems I can't shake it off. When I can really, really, really pay attention to how things happen, I sometimes see the intentions arising, and then the body moving along in relation to them. There's a huge relief to consider that it is true -- that all this is a movie playing on automatic -- but then follows a wave of guilt and shame. No, it can't be. This is ridiculous. Then I would try to look whether it is actually true.

And uh, it is pretty hard to tell. At what kind of scale are we talking about here? That there is never actually anybody here? That nobody in the history of the human race ever made a choice? Ugh, feels weird to comprehend.

Going to give it another go.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Ilona
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:31 pm

yes, you are looking right at it! exactly. now just test it if it's true.
if you get out in a nature, it may help at this point. just notice the obvious and let that which is true be revieled. It is all happening by itself. without controller. could it be otherwise?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby nothinker » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:59 pm

*shudders*
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Ilona
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:44 am

?
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Ilona
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who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:44 am

Nothinker, how is it going?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby nothinker » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:08 pm

Hey, sorry for disappearing. I'm pretty sure that I see it now, but I'd really appreciate you confirming it.

The reason I am uncertain is that -- get this -- I can't pinpoint exactly when I saw it. I had read LOADS of material by Ciaran and you guys that I pretty much know the right answer to almost every question, and sometimes that makes me question whether I really have seen the reality of this, or am I just believing that I have. It's frustrating not knowing when the pattern recognition took place, if it really did take place at all.

So I have been doing a lot of double-checking and testing to see the result of the liberation.

I would sit down and ask myself to locate the experiencer, and all that I could find would be experiences. The same happens when I try to look for a thinker or observer.

The controller, however, is tricky. I could not find any controller, but I also couldn't find any controlling either. It's really strange. I would be staring at my hand to see the relationship between the intention to raise a finger and the actual finger being raised, but I haven't been able to figure out how this works at all, only that they seemed to happen in the same instant.

As for testing the result of liberation, I find I am able to withstand situations that I would previously resist. That's not to say that I have become fearless -- far from it -- the hesitation to do things that might embarrass myself is very much there, it's just that when it actually happens I'm not suffering as much, and as a result I am able to open myself up just a little bit more when I would have normally remained in the comfort zone.

I really want a way to confirm for certain, hundred percent certain, that I am free. I know it's all about looking, and I can tell you that I haven't found anything in real life that could be said to be me. But oh my god I am still living as if there is a me and I have no idea how to confront my family and friends with this thing -- they'll think I have adopted some crazy-ass belief. And I'm usually regarded as soft in the head as it is. *sighs*
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

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Ilona
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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby Ilona » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:08 am

Hi Nothinker, great to see that you are back. no one else can confirm for you that you are free. there is certainty or there isn't. ask yourself, why do you need an external confirmation.

here are some questions for you to answer.

1 what is the self, how does it work? was there ever an entity behind words i/ me/ self?
2. what is real?
3. how does it feel to be free?
4. how would you introduce this to somebody, who have never heard about no self before?

give us a rant...
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: who is next for a chat?

Postby nothinker » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:58 pm

what is the self, how does it work? was there ever an entity behind words i/ me/ self?
Regardless of the varying characteristics we attach to each individual person, there are certain basic ideas that people everywhere identify as the innate roles of the self.

It is that there is an individual who experiences things, who thinks thoughts, who lives life. The idea stems from the belief that there is a person behind each life, a central conscious unit that freely decides to be one thing or another, which is a very convincing idea, except for the fact that it is a lie.

It is a lie because when you actually look for the experiencer and really try to find the actual thing the word is pointing to, you can't find it, not in any shape or form. All that can be found are experiences. The same happens when you look for something the word thinker is pointing to -- all you find are thoughts. The content of the thought may say that its existence is the product of a thinker who have just thought, but upon closer look there is only the thought -- no thinker anywhere.
what is real?
What is real is what is. The table is. The computer is. This writing is. These words point to something that is, that can be observed, in real life. To me that constitutes reality.
how does it feel to be free?
Well I am much more resilient to emotional suffering and damaging thought content and such things than I ever was, but still, the freedom comes with quite a burden, to be honest. It's not nearly as light as I thought it would feel, probably because I am not sure how to break away from the roles I have always played. That and the fact that I haven't successfully got anyone around me to consider this.
how would you introduce this to somebody, who have never heard about no self before?
You probably have heard about spiritual enlightenment, right? The deal is that there's a few dudes who are awakened, and they have been telling us for centuries that most of humanity is living their lives under the spell of Maya -- that we are living a lie that blinds us from the obvious truth in front of the eyes. There is an assumption we so dearly cherish as the unshakable truth, that just isn't true.

Well, for the past year I have been obsessing over this stuff, reading a lot of materials and practicing various spiritual techniques and going on retreat and stuff like that, chasing one clue after another, trying to get my act together because my head was so filled with conflicting information that I just couldn't go on unless I figure out what is true.

But what kind a lie would it have to be, that billions of people throughout the age would fail to see it after being hinted at by countless spiritual traditions? It would have to be something really unthinkable, right? It would have to be the last thing we would ever question, an assumption we are so certain to be true that very, very few would have the nerve to even consider that it *might* not be true. Yeah?

You wanna know what the lie is? It's you. You are the lie.

You are the hypothesis that does not hold up to direct observation.

Now, if you were like me the first time I heard about this, you're probably like -- whoa, what kind of prank is this guy trying to pull? But wait, look. Look at the actual words that the awakened masters have said:

"You want Enlightenment straight up? YOU don't exist." - Adyashanti

"You are saved by realizing that there is no self to be saved." - Vernon Howard.

“Enlightenment is the recognition that there is no you; that your sense of separation and individuality is an illusion.”

"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha

Does this spark your curiosity at all? Well, thankfully, there is an internet community devoted to help people see the truth of this in real life. All you need is honesty, and the willingness to look, and you can see the truth of this TODAY. To see the lie is to kill it, and I gotta tell you, this is one big ass lie that you wouldn't want to miss. Look, I'm really not the best guy to walk you through this. Sign up at liberationunleashed.com and there you will find people who are trained to help you see this. So trust me, spare an hour, do this, and life will never be the same.
"The mind perceives thoughts. There never was a thinker, just the view that there was one." - Buddha


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