I need help seeing the truth!

Postby **xvijay** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:55 am

I am Vijay, almost 51 from Malaysia. I have been searching for over 20 years now. I never really did any kind of spiritual practice except perhaps reading various viewpoints and contemplating, i guess. Anyway i started out with thinking that i need to purify myself etc, etc and have now reached the point where i think all that is nonsense. You might say i read a lot of Nisargadatta and Sailor Bob Adamson and their disciples now. I think i understand when they say there is no such thing as a personal self as that seems more self evident to me nowadays but i am still confused. Firstly i still continue to act as if i have a self and see no way out of it i.e. the knowledge about no self seems to be only intellectual without any practical value. Secondly, if I am not a "Self" then what exactly am I? I understand i can't define myself in words but the whole thing feels wholly unsatisfactory.

Would appreciate it very much if anyone can help me see better.

Thank you.

Postby **neeeel** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:12 pm

hey vijay.

Its good that you have an intellectual understanding, it can be a starting point. It can also lead to dishonest answers since if you "know" the answer to a question, it may not be actually how you feel or really think about it. So, whenever answering, answer honestly, not with what you think are correct answers.

Firstly, what do you hope to get out of this? What do you expect to happen?

if I am not a "Self" then what exactly am I?

You arent anything. You dont exist. There is no self.

What does reading the above sentence bring up for you?

Postby **for_forsaken** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:23 pm

You arent anything. You dont exist.
There is no self.

no no that's still misleading.the one doesn't even exist to be nothing or anything .

check your question vijay

what exactly
am I?

you have already assumed you exist and then you start searching what you are.ha ha what a joke.phrasing it

THE EXISTENCE OF YOU IS ALREADY ASSUMED.that's where drama of life starts.question it.do you exist?

Postby **neeeel** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:36 pm

for_forsaken, you have no business in this thread, go get your own

vijay, ignore the interruption, get back to me when you are ready.

Postby **xvijay** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:19 am

Hello Neeeel,

Thanks for responding. I get your point on people claiming to "know" something when they don't and I promise to be as honest as I can.

What do I hope to get out of this and what do I expect to happen? I used to think that I would be in continuous bliss, problem-free or something like that after I got "enlightenment" ; perhaps impress everyone else with my spiritual magnetism or whatever but all that was years ago. Ever since I embarked on this quest it seems to me that all I had gotten from it was more and more pain, with me having to give up one illusion after another. At present I am not really sure what I would get out of this or whether anything at all would happen. I would be extremely grateful if all I would get out of it was that I would stop seeking; to be able to feel it in my being that I finally know what or who I am, so that I can stop looking.

You arent anything. You dont exist. There is no self.

What does reading the above sentence bring up for you?

That is 3 different sentences. The first one "You arent anything" I take to mean as that I cannot be anything known, i.e. I cannot be objectified and known in that sense.

The 2nd statement "You don't exist" is a nonsensical statement to me. If I didn't exist, then we could hardly be having this conversation, could we?

The 3rd statement "There is no self" is more problematic for me. What exactly does a "self" consist of and what exactly do we mean by the word "self"? I can understand that we are not separate selves but don't the separate selves partake at least of some of the qualities of the Universal Self. If I am not a self then am I just some impersonal thing? In the spiritual life, there is a lot of talk about love. Where does "love" come into all this?

I hope I have answered your questions.

Postby **neeeel** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:04 am

That is 3 different sentences. The first one "You arent anything" I take to mean as that I cannot be anything known, i.e. I cannot be objectified and known in that sense.

No, it means "you" arent anything, there is nothing anywhere in reality that is a "you"

The 2nd statement "You don't exist" is a nonsensical statement to me. If I didn't exist, then we could hardly be having this conversation, could we?

Does there need to be a "you" in order to have this conversation?

The 3rd statement "There is no self" is more problematic for me. What exactly does a "self" consist of and what exactly do we mean by the word "self"? I can understand that we are not separate selves but don't the separate selves partake at least of some of the qualities of the Universal Self. If I am not a self then am I just some impersonal thing? In the spiritual life, there is a lot of talk about love. Where does "love" come into all this?

At the moment, love doesnt enter into this. Its irrelevant.
There is no universal self, and even if there was, you arent it in any way.

If I am not a self then am I just some impersonal thing?

No, you arent anything at all, you dont exist.

What exactly does a "self" consist of and what exactly do we mean by the word "self"?

Good question. Tell me what you mean by "me" or "self" what is the self? What does it do?
Give me as much as you can please. For example, I am the one who experiences happiness, I am the one who wants a new car. Everything you can think of that makes up the self, qualities, memories, whatever.

Postby **xvijay** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:14 am

Ok, I think I see what you are saying. There is no me or I. But I have a problem with that. I can agree that there is no self, that the "I" that we think we are simply does not exist. The "I" may only be a symbol or pointer towards something else. But even if I were to stop saying "I", stop thinking "I", something still exists which I feel is my being [or perhaps just being without any I or my attached to it] and which I can never get away from.

That brings us to your question "What is the self?". The conventional answer [and the answer I would give based on where I am now} would be me who is answering your question, who is typing this answer on the computer, the doer in short. The one who works for his monthly salary so that he can provide for his wife and kids. The one who thinks and plans for the future both for himself and his family. The one who worries about the future. The one who decides what is to be done on the countless occasions in day to day life when one has to choose which way to go, which step to take, etc, etc. The one who both has desires and fears. The entity who lives in space and time and who can't help but live in space and time since he knows or is aware of nothing else but that which exists in space and time.

I have already sensed however that the word 'doing' is an imaginary mental concept and in reality there may be no such thing. That however does not help me in any way as my life carries on as usual with me still thinking I am doing something; that I want or desire this or that or that I don't want this or that to happen. I am aware that I live in a conceptual universe and not in "direct reality" but I am unable to see any way out of this.

Postby **neeeel** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:06 pm

Ok, I think I see what you are saying. There is no me or I. But I have a problem with that. I can agree that there is no self, that the "I" that we think we are simply does not exist. The "I" may only be a symbol or pointer towards something else. But even if I were to stop saying "I", stop thinking "I", something still exists which I feel is my being [or perhaps just being without any I or my attached to it] and which I can never get away from.

this sense or feeling of being, describe it. How is it sensed? What does it feel like? Is it anything other than sensations, thoughts, and mental images?

That brings us to your question "What is the self?". The conventional answer [and the answer I would give based on where I am now} would be me who is answering your question, who is typing this answer on the computer, the doer in short. The one who works for his monthly salary so that he can provide for his wife and kids. The one who thinks and plans for the future both for himself and his family. The one who worries about the future. The one who decides what is to be done on the countless occasions in day to day life when one has to choose which way to go, which step to take, etc, etc. The one who both has desires and fears. The entity who lives in space and time and who can't help but live in space and time since he knows or is aware of nothing else but that which exists in space and time.

Ok thanks. Good honest answer. there is no doubt that these things are getting done. the question we are looking at is whether they are being done by a you, an entity.
So,take a look at doing. Raise your right arm. How did you do that? describe to the me the process that happens when you raise your right arm.

Postby **xvijay** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:34 pm

I really can't describe the sense of being; perhaps the word closest to it is "awareness". It doesn't fall under any sense but seems like an "immediate seeing". I am not even sure if it is accurate to describe it as separate from all the feelings and sensations and thoughts encountered in daily life. I can also concede that this 'awareness' or 'beingness' is impersonal and words like 'I' or 'mine' do not apply here but it seems to be my core part or something.

The same applies in trying to describe the process of lifting my arm. It seems instantaneous and if there is a process, i can't discern any part or stages to be able to describe how it is done. Yet i find it difficult to say that the "I" is not a necessary part of the process; since it appears as if without my volition, my arm is not going to move up by itself.

Postby **neeeel** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:57 pm

I really can't describe the sense of being; perhaps the word closest to it is "awareness". It doesn't fall under any sense but seems like an "immediate seeing". I am not even sure if it is accurate to describe it as separate from all the feelings and sensations and thoughts encountered in daily life. I can also concede that this 'awareness' or 'beingness' is impersonal and words like 'I' or 'mine' do not apply here but it seems to be my core part or something.

Sounds like what we call direct experience. The actual sights, sounds and sensations, uncluttered by any thoughts or concepts about those sights, sounds and sensations. In direct experience, is there an I that is experiencing any of this?

The same applies in trying to describe the process of lifting my arm. It seems instantaneous and if there is a process, i can't discern any part or stages to be able to describe how it is done. Yet i find it difficult to say that the "I" is not a necessary part of the process; since it appears as if without my volition, my arm is not going to move up by itself.

In direct experience of lifting the arm, can you find the "I" that is doing it? Other than in the content of thoughts about what is happening, or what just happened, can you find the "I" anywhere?

How does volition work? How does the "I" command or will various parts of the body to move?

Postby **xvijay** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:22 pm

Hmmm, in direct experience I guess there is no 'I'. It is an afterthought, something added on or assumed after the experience. But the afterthought seems to move at light speed in normal day to day life and seems unavoidable. Is it possible to ignore it? It seems like I have to be constantly on my guard so that i am not overcome and in trying to do that i am only going around in circles and am back with an "I".

No, in direct experience of lifting my arm, i do not find the I doing it. I do not know how volition works; i only know that it is a matter of volition because in case I decide to say "No", then my arm remains where it is and no amount of external suggestions (except perhaps coercion and physical torture) can get my arm up.

Postby **neeeel** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:03 pm

Hmmm, in direct experience I guess there is no 'I'. It is an afterthought, something added on or assumed after the experience. But the afterthought seems to move at light speed in normal day to day life and seems unavoidable. Is it possible to ignore it? It seems like I have to be constantly on my guard so that i am not overcome and in trying to do that i am only going around in circles and am back with an "I".

Yes, who would have to be constantly on your guard?

This is not about removing something, killing something off, or otherwise changing something. It is just the seeing that the self only exists in thoughts. There is no you anywhere, this includes a you that can stop or ignore these thoughts. They will still come up, but will be recognised to be false.

Are you thinking these afterthoughts? Are you the doer of any thoughts? Or are they just automatic and spontaneous?

No, in direct experience of lifting my arm, i do not find the I doing it. I do not know how volition works; i only know that it is a matter of volition because in case I decide to say "No", then my arm remains where it is and no amount of external suggestions (except perhaps coercion and physical torture) can get my arm up.

There may be a decision to raise the arm, but are "you" doing it, that is the question? When you decide to say no, is that you? Or is it , as above , a decision, followed by a fast subtle afterthought?
How does volition work? Is there a thought "I will raise my arm" or "I wont raise my arm"? Does this thought make the arm raise?
Take a look at other things throughout the day. when walking, watch how the legs just do their thing. Sometimes you might notice that you have gone 2 blocks without realising it. How did everything happen if "you" werent there to control it? What was it that was missing in those 2 blocks of walking that made it appear that you werent in control? Who made the decisions to turn left or right or keep straight on? Who made the decision to avoid other walkers?
Look at every action you take throughout the day, and note how much you control, and how much is on automatic. Cooking, eating, talking, scratching, sleeping, running, whatever.
Note what is present that seems to imply control, and note what is missing when things seem automatic.

Postby **xvijay** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:22 pm

Yes, i am slowly getting what you are saying...... perhaps the correct way to say that is seeing seems to be getting clearer. I need to ponder and simmer a bit on all the things that you have said; it is night over here and i will be off to bed in a while, so let me sleep over everything and i will get back to you tomorrow or later as the need arises. Thanks a lot, Neeeel (is that your real name, can't be, i guess and i read somewhere that you are Scottish).

Anyway thank you, and good night.

Postby **neeeel** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:56 pm

ok report back when you are ready.

Remember, this is not about thinking things through and reaching a conclusion or deduction. Its about looking at reality and seeing what is true. Looking, not thinking.

Postby **xvijay** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:57 am

So, Neeeel, what do I do now? I have been moping this past day thinking that Yes, i finally see that I don't exist and every time the word "I" comes out, there are attempts made to "see" the I for what it is. I hesitated to even return to this forum and pose this question about what I should do now to you as it is seen that I don't really need to do or not do anything and that everything goes on as before. Please comment as I don't really know what I should say or do.