Help seeing through self experientially

[seasidealive]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
that the self is a mental construct, built from conditionings & experiences and formed into a story of a character that is believed to be an individual agent in the world, separate from everything else. Therefore not real.

What are you looking for at LU?
At this point, I feel that adding any further teaching, book or other knowledge distracts me more than pointing to the truth. I do not have anyone in my life to talk or know where to go to for advice. Hence, I am looking for a more direct interaction with someone who can guide. I had many glimpses and experiences as well as insights but something still doesn't "click".
On some days, I feel like it's simple & right in front of me. On others I feel very separate and thought identified. Whenever I relax my attention into being, I get strong body sensations (from my gut into my entire being) that feels a bit like "falling" (weird mixture of contraction and expansion). It has been like that for some time and I am unsure what it means or what to do about it (if anything).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be honest, I do not know. I think I'd be happy if someone can help me understand what is happening and perhaps point me in the right direction. Be it practice, non-practice or anything that helps me dropping the penny.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I loosely identified as Buddhist in my 20s and practiced meditation, mostly inspired by Zen. After an OBE during meditation, I got so spooked that I decided to take a break and never meditated again for 20 years. My actual spiritual path only started about 6 months ago when my energy to seek worldly things culminated in recognizing that this path would only lead me to resentment. I picked up meditation again, first to clear my mind, but there was an experience that completely shattered many of my beliefs. Ever since, meditation comes quite effortlessly (~1h per day on average). I have started with simple breathwork, went into Koan and self-inquiry. Now, a lot of inquiry also happens during the day (on and off) as well as relaxing into being. A lot of shadow work appeared on its own (and actually catching me off-guard) where I cycled from grief to fear/doubt followed by despair with intermissions of peace and joy. Now, the stretches of peace and joy have become dominant while the the shadow stuff gets shorter. I do not follow any specific program or tradition. Most of the time, I do things intuitively (aka I don't know what I'm doing :D ).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi seasidealive
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[seasidealive]

Hi Rali,
Nice to meet you, please call me Marc.
Thank you for your response and willingness to guide. I’m very grateful.
My time zone is currently GMT+2 (Berlin/Brussels) with a DST this Sunday. So pretty much the same time zone as ZA 😊. Daily should be fine for now.

Looking forward to working with you.

I’ve read and understood the FAQs.

Cheers
Marc

[poppyseed]

Hi Marc

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

My time zone is currently GMT+2 (Berlin/Brussels) with a DST this Sunday.

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

Looking forward to working with you.

Great! Me too!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[seasidealive]

Good questions. Also interesing to notice that I never stopped to think about it that much. Let me know if I should elaborate on any of them.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

In terms of my life situation, probably nothing. Perhaps knowing that whatever brought me here, never needed a self and what other thoughts and habits are attached to the idea of self. Of course, I can’t know for sure until I have realized.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Perhaps a slight shift in how I perceive everything and how much weight / attention some of my thoughts get (or all of them for that matter). Better understanding of what I am not.

3. What do you want not to happen?

So, I did have quite a bit of “awakening-anxiety” a few months ago. A lot of what-if-thoughts about my life falling apart (marriage, job etc.). Luckily, this has subsided a lot but there is still a sense of not wanting this to end up in chaos or passivity because there is no manager anymore (of course I conceptually understand that there never was one).

4. What are you hoping for?

That some thought(-patterns) may also drop or subside, that are linked to the idea of self. E.g. “What is my purpose?” or other, similar ruminations and projections into the future. Those feel somehow unnecessary and sometimes even painful. Perhaps that life may feel a bit lighter and less forced like being in-step with life instead of pushing. There is also a strong sense of curiosity, I am hoping to see what This actually is, to be able to explore something I haven't seen. A bit paradoxical since there is a fear of the unkown too :/.

5. What is missing?

Hard question. I don’t feel a particular lack. There is a conditioning of “not good enough yet, need to improve”. That has also loosened but is still there and applies to most aspects of life.

I will be offline for the rest of the day. Talk to you tomorrow?
Cheers
Marc

[poppyseed]

Hi Marc

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

So, I did have quite a bit of “awakening-anxiety” a few months ago. A lot of what-if-thoughts about my life falling apart (marriage, job etc.). Luckily, this has subsided a lot but there is still a sense of not wanting this to end up in chaos or passivity because there is no manager anymore (of course I conceptually understand that there never was one).

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. Why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will…

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
Let’s examine this carefully. Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity” (passivity). But let’s be clear here…
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work
Love
Rali

[seasidealive]

Hi Rali,

Apologies for the late response. I was travelling today but I also had spare time to look.

It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Absolutely YES. It was already a good lesson for me to see that there still were some.

Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

Will do.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I did some looking several times today.

So this might be a lot of text and a lot of the experience is hard for me to put into words, so apologies if it’s a bit clunky. There is a lot “I did this or that” because it’s easier for me to explain. Thank you for being patient with me.

Morning:
When I ask “where is the I, what feels like I?”, at first it seems like it’s in the head area or behind the eyes especially when looking around or walking. Then I try to forget about the mental map of the body, it feels more like floating above the ground (especially while walking).
I notice hearing and sensations in the body. The sense of “I” then becomes more vague and spread out. I feel buzzing sensations especially in the head area (forehead, temples) but also “lower” in the body. It is like multiple sensations stacked on top of each other like an overlay.

Focusing a bit more on sound (which feels like it’s everywhere, not around me but just everywhere). The “I” now feels more like an area. Then I ask “from where do I observe this area?” It feels a bit like the I is behind the area. So I repeat the question and say “where is the I that knows it’s behind the area?”. There, the question does not land anywhere. That’s when I get stronger sensations in body area that feels like an energetic push or clenching in where the chest/abdomen should be and then spreading outwards. A thought latches onto that, somewhat non-verbal like “unpleasant” or “strong”. Then more thoughts jump on that, more verbal this time saying something like resistance or barrier. I try to dismiss this as thoughts and say “it is just sensing, neither good nor bad” but it feels somewhat dishonest. I lean into the sensation a bit and it becomes stronger. I can also feel how some muscles contract involuntarily (eyes, pelvis, neck) and my right arm starts to shake or jerk. I then ask “where is the I that made the decision to lean into it” again landing nowhere. Thoughts arise that say something like “This again”. When I get distracted by other thoughts (“there is the train” or “still need to finish some work”) the sensations dissolves or whenever I focus on other sensations. I can go back to sensing but this is essentially how far I got.

Afternoon:
I try again, sitting in the train. I ask “what feels like I here?”. The gaze is fixed for some time and not focussed on anything. It feels like the I is the visual field, other senses are added into the mix. The “I” feels spread out but somehow local. So I ask “what feels like the center of this?” and the mind jumps to conclusion “the body”. I dismiss that and try to de-imagine space. Now senses feel a bit more flat, somehow close. So I ask “close to what?”. The “I” feels now very vague. The clenching sensation is also chiming in but I try not to focus on that. Then I ask “where is the I that does not want to focus on the sensation?”. Now the I feels like a beam of attention with all kinds of sensations in it’s “view”. When I finally ask “from where do I know attention?” I get nothing more.

Evening:
There are interactions with family members. Looking, hearing, tasting and talking. It feels a bit like watching a movie but that is very subtle. I ask “where is the experiencer of this?”. I don’t get much but some thoughts come up that say “well I am not those people so whatever this I is or wherever it’s located but be other than that”. So some kind of inference happening here. I tried to look again after I left, walking for some time in the dark. Similar as before, putting aside the concept of space, it feels like my visual is just changing but something is fixed. So I ask again for the center. A thought comes up saying there is a center to the field but that does not feel like “I”. So I try differently and ask “if you don’t find a center then can you find a border?”. I couldn’t find one. I get some more thoughts along the lines of “well just because you can’t find anything doesn't mean there is no I or border…” or “there must be something” etc. I try to dismiss or question them back. Then they dissolve and nothing else comes up.

puh, I think the body wants to sleep now :D...

Good night and cheerio
Marc

[seasidealive]

Good morning Rali,

I noticed one more thing as I was repeating the process this morning. That narrating voice thought(s), the one that asks the questions, feels very much like I. Like it is in control and can move attention, making some decisions. But attention moves away from that, it's like described above.

Have a good day.
Marc

[seasidealive]

Sorry I hope I am not spamming you.

This came up in the morning sitting a bit with what I believed to be fear, allowing it to be there and asking what it protects like you recommended. After some time, I am asking:”What are you trying to protect?”. There a whole lot of thoughts but they feel very explorative. “Is it this? Is it that?” Things like existing, identity, the unknown… Pushing a bit harder, it becomes very elusive as if it was refusing to show me. So I ask once more “Show me what you are protecting”as if to a child. It feels evasive at first so I push a bit more and say “if nothing can be shown, how do I know that there is anything at all?”. Then there is actually nothing and I have to laugh a little. What it now feels like is, the thought “I am afraid” is just holding onto itself without any anchor…that feels very strange.

This is btw somehow fun.Is that weird?

[poppyseed]

Hi Marc
I really appreciate your eagerness and openness to look! Thank you for your honesty! It gives me an idea where to point to…
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises. You seem to know already but there are still some nuances…

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[seasidealive]

Hi Rali,

thanks for pointing that out. I think it is worthwhile to take a step back and cover basics.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Right. I of course agree. I also think it is tricky sometimes and rushing ahead with thinking can be tempting.

I do have a questions or two for clarification:

- Could you perhaps elaborate on what Feeling actually means?
- Is pure sensation without labels also part of the investigation?

Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

You mean just the fact that thoughts are arising regardless of what they say or revolve around?

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

'apple' is not found, there is tasting, smelling, seeing and touching without labels. In daily life this labelling is happening extremely fast and automatically in my experience. So it feels like a bit of effort to disregard labelling. Is there a something I can practice to slow this down?

For the senses, and the example with the apple is clear. This seems easier when it is a sensory experience. Is there a proper way to see the sense of self or "I" as it is rather conceptual. Because of that, the temptation to use thoughts may be higher?

Cheers
Marc

[poppyseed]

Hi Marc

Wonderful looking!

- Could you perhaps elaborate on what Feeling actually means?
- Is pure sensation without labels also part of the investigation?

Feeling is the experiencing of an actual raw sensation. Just to make the difference:
Emotion (fear, frustration, joy, happiness, jealousy, etc) = sensation + thought

You mean just the fact that thoughts are arising regardless of what they say or revolve around?

Yes! Thoughts are experienced but what they talk about is not (e.g. apples). Words are symbols, units of information, carriers of meaning. They are pointers, like fingers that point to experience. What seems to be “Marc’s world,” the totality of your experience of all that is happening, is a creation of language, and words are the building blocks that create the story about it. We’ll look at thoughts in more detail

'apple' is not found, there is tasting, smelling, seeing and touching without labels. In daily life this labelling is happening extremely fast and automatically in my experience. So it feels like a bit of effort to disregard labelling. Is there a something I can practice to slow this down?

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. Everything that thoughts labels as an apple exists as sound, smell, taste, colour, sensation and thoughts about an apple. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

For the senses, and the example with the apple is clear. This seems easier when it is a sensory experience. Is there a proper way to see the sense of self or "I" as it is rather conceptual. Because of that, the temptation to use thoughts may be higher?

That is what we are doing here – this is not about persuading you with logic, but about pointing to “physically” see that there is no self. That includes all the usual "places" where the self is believed to be. Not finding something doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist. You simply couldn’t find it. In the shift, it is positively seen that there is no self. In that process it is seen what is actually here instead - the illusion. That’s why it is important to have a “beginner’s mind” and forget all spiritual teachings, science, etc, and have a fresh look for yourself.

So, you can already use the apple example and apply it to “Marc” - if you look at the 'I/me/Marc' , is it actually known?
Yes, sensation labelled as “I” is known, as are the thoughts ABOUT an “I”, but an “I” isn’t actually known. It is a concept…and concepts aren’t an issue, unless they are believed.

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?
Does the label "I" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I?
Does the label "I" know anything about an I?
What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?

Love
Rali

[seasidealive]

Hi Rali,

thanks for the instructions. I am visiting family this week, this does give me plenty of opportunities to look but writing back usually in the evening only. Hope that's fine.


I can already see how this is going to take some work and patience.

Feeling is the experiencing of an actual raw sensation. Just to make the difference:
Emotion (fear, frustration, joy, happiness, jealousy, etc) = sensation + thought

go it, thanks.

Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Breakfast:
Sitting in a chair, simply = sensation (feeling)
Seeing a glass, simply = colour (seeing)
Seeing a plate, simply = colour (seeing)
Seeing a roll, simply = colour (seeing)
Seeing a hand, simply = colour (seeing)
Grabbing the roll, simply = sensation (feeling)
Chewing, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thinking about sweetness, simply = thought (thinking)
Tasting the roll, simply = taste (tasting)
Grabbing the glass, simply = sensation (feeling)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Feeling the warmth in the mouth, simply = sensation (feeling)
Talking to a person, simply = sound (hearing) plus sensation (feeling)


Walking
Feeling ground under the feet, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thought about actually looking, simply = thought (thinking)
Seeing the way ahead plus objects, simply = colour (seeing)
Cold wind in the face, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thinking about face, simply = thought (thinking)
Feeling breath, simply = sensation (feeling)
Smelling leaves, simply = smell (smelling)
Seeing objects (cars, people, trees), simply = colour (seeing)
Thinking about work, simply = thought (thinking)

Unfriendly interaction with another
Seeing a person, simply = colour (seeing)
Talking, simply = sound (hearing) plus sensation (feeling)
Feeling angry, simply = sensation (sensing) plus thought (thinking)
Thinking about looking for anger, simply = thought (thinking)
Walking & feeling the feet, simply = sensation (sensing)
Seeing objects, simply = colour (seeing)
Hearing noises, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling sunlight, simply = sensation (feeling) plus colour (seeing)
Thinking about scenery, simply = thought (thinking)
Thinking about this process, simply = thought (thinking)

Train
Sitting, simply = sensation (feeling)
Feet on the ground, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thinking about a body, simply = thought (thinking)
Seeing train objects, simply = colour (seeing)
Listening to people talking, simply = sound (hearing)
Reading ads, words, simply = thoughts (thinking) plus colour (seeing)
Buzzing sensations in the body, simply = sensation (feeling)
Breathing, simply = sensation (feeling)
Ringing in the ear, simply = sound? (hearing) -> there is no sound only hearing

So, you can already use the apple example and apply it to “Marc”

ok. I would like to take a bit of time doing this and look extra carefully, because I have sensed thoughts about rushing to the answer without really looking. Will do this in between and report back if that's ok.

Thanks and cheerio from the north

Marc

[poppyseed]

Hi Marc

Unfriendly interaction with another
Seeing a person, simply = colour (seeing)
Talking, simply = sound (hearing) plus sensation (feeling)
Feeling angry, simply = sensation (sensing) plus thought (thinking)
Thinking about looking for anger, simply = thought (thinking)
Walking & feeling the feet, simply = sensation (sensing)
Seeing objects, simply = colour (seeing)
Hearing noises, simply = sound (hearing)
Feeling sunlight, simply = sensation (feeling) plus colour (seeing)
Thinking about scenery, simply = thought (thinking)
Thinking about this process, simply = thought (thinking)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking!!! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?
If you want you can give me a few lines with each of your replies just to keep the momentum going

I noticed one more thing as I was repeating the process this morning. That narrating voice thought(s), the one that asks the questions, feels very much like I. Like it is in control and can move attention, making some decisions. But attention moves away from that, it's like described above.

Now that you can look let’s use this to explore thinking

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[seasidealive]

Hi Rali,

thanks for the instructions. I was still chewing on the last ones. I have investigated thinking before and already looked into some of the questions. But the additional ones are very good pointers to look closer again. Will do probably in the course of tomorrow. I also keep looking into the experience/sensations in the meantime for sure.

Coming back to earlier questions, I tried to investigate them as best I could:

Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?

What is a person? Body, relationships, activities, memories (anything else?).
In DE, body is seeing (i.e. looking at it) and feeling. An actual physical body cannot be found.
Activities can always be broken down in feeling, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, thinking. The actual activities cannot be found.
Relationships are also activities plus thoughts (thinking). So relationships also cannot be found, only thoughts about them.
Memories are reinvoked/recreated thoughts only. I cannot find anything that memories are about, only thinking. So memories as such in DE also don’t exist.

So ‘I’ cannot contain a person only the senses and thinking.

Does the label "I" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I?

The sense of I (am) seems more universal than the label. The label ‘I’ is always about something not the DE. In other words, ‘Marc’ is what he thinks about, what he experiences with senses, the quality of relationships etc. not what is really here now.
Since it is universal to the label, it could mean, that Marc’s sense of I (am) is exactly the same as Rali’s sense of I (am)…

Does the label "I" know anything about an I?

Struggling with this one. Can ‘Marc’ know anything about a sense of I or ‘I am’? Marc is about things. Marc can refer to himself, the label. It is a concept, a categorisation or a container for all sorts of other labels. So the label ‘I’ itself cannot know anything.

What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?

The sense of existing, of being here now.

Thank you so much!
Best
Marc