Life's curious path has led me here (on the way to where?)

[Cabs]

hahaha. Far out.

[davjak]

There is no separate self because without construct there is nothing.

What about what is designated a smell, a taste, a sight, the heard, the felt?
What about a sense of lack? Is anything lacking now, not conceptually, but is there anything that is missing or anything that needs to happen?
What about this thing called life as it seems to be? How is it?

The constructs are all that exist. They cannot be stopped because that would stop existence.

Would it, or would it only stop thoughts/beliefs about existing?

[Cabs]

What about what is designated a smell, a taste, a sight, the heard, the felt?

Those designations are constructs. All of them are taught/learned/imagined/assumed - including any rationale behind an explanation... I have no idea what they are outside of the construct that has been designated to it. I'm having trouble even explaining it because it feels like the explanation is just a construct itself - something appears in the sensory world (even 'the sensory world' is a construct designed to facilitate an attempted explanation of such experience), it's designated a label, along a compendium of 'knowledge' to 'explain' it... but the root of all of it is nothing but a construct when drilled down. As you stated some time ago, there's nothing outside of the evidence. The evidence just has a story built on top of it, which is what we call experience. And what even is evidence if it's not a construct? There's nothing concrete to lock down as a thing. Even if there is, and AI somehow manages to come up with some seemingly fool-proof way of proving it, how does it possibly ever exist as anything other than a mental construct within the existence be experienced as 'me'? At best, I exist within it - made of it. I would be nothing but it in the form of constructs.

What about a sense of lack? Is anything lacking now, not conceptually, but is there anything that is missing or anything that needs to happen?

The sense kind of appears to exist, but that must be habit pattern because when looking at anything that may appear lacking - it doesn't appear as anything other than a construct? What even is there to lack that isn't a construct? If everything is a construct, then lacking could only ever be a construct sensing a shortfall in another construct.

The only thing I can postulate that could appear as 'missing' is a full elimination of all constructs, but I can't see how that would equate to anything but complete non-existence - which can't be 'missing' because it's not something that can be missing. Hypothetically filling that 'missing' void would ironically result in missing literally everything in turn.

As for anything that needs to happen? Well any need I could proffer could only ever be a construct, as would the object the need is requiring. I'm sensing the appearance of a sort of 'need' to see this all more clearly for example, to break open all the constructs that make-up my experience, to experience 'life' fully awake to this - but that sense of need is nothing more than a habit construct itself.

What about this thing called life as it seems to be? How is it?

It is simultaneously existing as 'real, as I have always known it', alongside appearing as a stream of infinite constructs - all it takes is the 'construct' spotlight to shine on anything and it kind of burns up the illusion of it being real, but there's like a gazillion, and each has even more of it's own - like construct galaxies in a construct universe.

It is sort of like a lucid dream - although I don't see how I'm going to fly in this one, haha - insofar as lucid dreams mix together and shift in and out of both being lost in the experience and being aware that it is a dream.

MY WORDS: The constructs are all that exist. They cannot be stopped because that would stop existence.

YOUR WORDS: Would it, or would it only stop thoughts/beliefs about existing?

What would/could existence be without constructs? Deep sleep, anaesthesia, unconsciousness, these are supposed states of 'existence' without thoughts/beliefs - the only construct we can jostle with here - and what is the experience of those states? If those states occur (I've supposedly experienced them all) then the experience was non-existence - because they literally didn't exist in my experience - or to say it another way - I didn't exist within those states, if they occurred. The only thing that 'exists' about them is a story, a mental construct. I don't even have any constructed first-hand 'evidence' that I existed before about the age of 2 years old, give or take - no 'existence' before constructs. Haha, and every moment since then is only a construct now.


One thing that is being experienced is a seeming dead-end once something has been identified as a construct. There's no experience of digging down to the root. This is of course a construct too. I have no idea what happens with any of this, if anything. Just noting the experience. In some ways it seems superficial, but it equally feels kind of unnecessary to look beyond it?!

Another interesting experience happened yesterday - not long after I wrote the last reply - I was listening to my wife recount a reunion she just attended with old work colleagues. Her dialogue was suggesting a lot of gratitude for having them in her life, and how they helped shape who she is, etc. As I listened and watched, I observed everything emerging as a flow of constructs within her... I was caught in a moment of what felt like real understanding - not understanding what she was saying, but understanding what she was. The mental constructs that are me usually engage with what appears as hers and in turn assimilate into my own mental constructs, whereas this felt like there were no constructs within me interfering with it at all - beyond the mental construct that it's all mental constructs, haha.

[davjak]

The dead end you sensed is nothing other than the dead end of thought and conceptualizing. When all this energy of verbosity, figuring out and explaining runs its course, this will be obvious. Again, none of this is a destination. As you glimpsed there being nothing behind thought, the same is to be found in front of it. There is no there there. And yet, there is just whatever seems to be showing up, full and empty. Life is still life, just not in the same way.

What about contraction in the body, tension, pain? How are things for you, without going into any intricacies of explaining. How are you, Dan?

"Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters."

[Cabs]

The dead end you sensed is nothing other than the dead end of thought and conceptualizing. When all this energy of verbosity, figuring out and explaining runs its course, this will be obvious. Again, none of this is a destination. As you glimpsed there being nothing behind thought, the same is to be found in front of it. There is no there there. And yet, there is just whatever seems to be showing up, full and empty. Life is still life, just not in the same way.

The experience is seeming like fly swatting - things appear > construct awareness appears > swat.

Next...

swat, swat, swat.

Theres a sense that the swatting is too rapid, or too presumptuous - as though I should check to be sure, but every check just hits a wall of construct and nothing else can possibly explain it. Nonetheless, it still appears too simple, as though ignorant... but even that appearance just gets swatted.

The experience of a narrator, a witness, is still on-going, and probably the slipperiest construct of them all. As though trying to take credit for pointing out the constructs in the hope to avoid the swat.

The 'in-front of thought' you speak of has not yet been apparent in my awareness. I suppose thought, or anticipation of the future, is that - or an expectation that a certain thought path may lead down an anticipated track... Those things arise during the experience of believing in a construct, before the swat comes down.

I also experience the construct of "I" trying to view everything through this lens - as though it's some new toy. There's an increasing tendency emerging towards swatting that away too, as though it's unnecessary to experience things like that all the time. Upon writing this, I see that it is a want or a need - a construct.

What about contraction in the body, tension, pain? How are things for you, without going into any intricacies of explaining. How are you, Dan?

There are 2 aspects:

1. the experience of awareness of sensations in the body I label pain - occurring as it does, and there is
2. the experience of what appears to happen in the body before and after swatting constructs.

1. Sensations defined as pain and tension, in combination with all the constructs erected around them, have been appearing to plague my life for many many years. These still appear, but there seems to be an acceptance or almost nonchalant kind of yielding happening. Its a deep construct that includes interpreting sensation AS pain or negative in the first place, then assumptions and expectations that the pain should not be there, desire to get rid of it, craving for knowing the reason it exists, fear about what it means for the future, anger, worry, anxiety, depression - all the classics. This has really been a very controlling scaffolding of constructs that has seemingly determined my experience of life for many years. Now all those constructs are visible. It doesn't make anything appear to change sensorily, but all of the structures built from that seem to have no footing.

2. When experiencing being in the midst of believing a construct (e.g. thoughts about finances, planning, health, schedules, responsibilities, etc) there are sensations of contraction and tension occurring (e.g. clenched stomach, hunched shoulders, frown, etc). As soon as the construct awareness appears, the experience is 'swatted' by the construct swat and the body sensation ceases with it.

As for how I am?

"I" am the same, it seems 🤷‍♂️.

But it seems "I" can only really know that from this perspective, because prior so much was happening without the experience been seen clearly or fully. I thought I knew. It all made sense when I would read about and try to employ mindfulness and everything. But now I can experience the real connection, the inseparable nature - the one-and-the-same-ness - between the construct and the experience identified as a body.

[davjak]

The experience is seeming like fly swatting - things appear > construct awareness appears > swat.

OK, but that's still mental imagery, and just an observation here, it has an aggressive quality. So rather than say a hand opening so that nothing sticks, or a stream with leaves continually washing past, it feels like a habit of using thought and intellect in a particular way.

Here is another alternative metaphor: "Martial arts like Judo, Aikido, and Jujutsu use an opponent's force against them by employing principles of yielding, balance, and redirection rather than direct confrontation.

And just a few more seeds to cast about: dissolving, unbinding, collapsing, letting go, unraveling, form appearing where there is none, softening, kindness, compassion, easeful, "the watercourse way"... Have you read the Hsin Hsin Ming? There is a little 4 or 5 dollar pamphlet translated by Richard Clarke that is wonderful.

The experience of a narrator, a witness, is still on-going, and probably the slipperiest construct of them all. As though trying to take credit for pointing out the constructs in the hope to avoid the swat.

Again, change doesn't come in one stroke. It's ongoing, edgeless, open-ended.

I also experience the construct of "I" trying to view everything through this lens - as though it's some new toy. There's an increasing tendency emerging towards swatting that away too, as though it's unnecessary to experience things like that all the time. Upon writing this, I see that it is a want or a need - a construct.

These are good insights. Can they be implemented, encouraged, pursued, cultivated?

1. the experience of awareness of sensations in the body I label pain - occurring as it does...

Is there ever an experience of awareness? How could awareness be experienced? Aren't they the same thing, to be aware is to experience? If nothing is added by imagination, aren't there only sensations? Divided experience of being aware of them is unnecessary. It's just imagination again.

But now I can experience the real connection, the inseparable nature - the one-and-the-same-ness - between the construct and the experience identified as a body.

Where we began: "LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?" What is your concise answer?

[Cabs]

OK, but that's still mental imagery, and just an observation here, it has an aggressive quality. So rather than say a hand opening so that nothing sticks, or a stream with leaves continually washing past, it feels like a habit of using thought and intellect in a particular way.

Good observation. The fly swat was the first thing that appeared as a descriptor, and is aggressive, i agree - and not that accurate really, as the experience is not an attacking as such, but rather just a stopping - a blocking or erasing or something. It doesn't seem quite like a hand opening so that nothing sticks, or a stream with leaves continually washing past because it seems like something being met by something else that results in elimination, or braking of some kind.

Here is another alternative metaphor: "Martial arts like Judo, Aikido, and Jujutsu use an opponent's force against them by employing principles of yielding, balance, and redirection rather than direct confrontation.

Softness is the intuition that rises up when reading that.

dissolving, unbinding, collapsing, letting go, unraveling, form appearing where there is none, softening, kindness, compassion, easeful, "the watercourse way"

Collapsing feels closest to the experience currently, but there is resonance with all of those.

Something that repeatedly emerges is a feeling of trepidation that the realisations appearing to have led to this are faded. There's a sense of only holding a conclusion - I am constructs - without the substance to support it. You, for example, appear to have a firm grasp on a totality of this, not just a single thing.

Feels like a habit pattern of wanting to understand clearly, to retain knowledge... what is it? Constructs viewing knowledge as a desirable object? Constructs fearing defending this with another without a clear and inarguable defence ready to go? Even arguing it with the sense of self that continuously respawns and appears to challenge it? I can see these are constructs - So many arise in a form of undermining sensation.

As I write this, I can see that these are deeper constructs emerging with more superficial ones, less clear but more structural. My 'swatting' is mostly dealing with superficial layers, not structures erecting them. These are where all of those metaphors you listed seem to apply very well. Especially softer ones like kindness, compassion, easeful. These constructs have been erected from a sense of fear.

These are good insights. Can they be implemented, encouraged, pursued, cultivated?

Without this writing, I don't know that deeper looking as described above would appear in that manner. At least experience so far has not often led too far down the rabbit hole outside of these sessions and meditation on them.

Is there ever an experience of awareness? How could awareness be experienced? Aren't they the same thing, to be aware is to experience? If nothing is added by imagination, aren't there only sensations? Divided experience of being aware of them is unnecessary. It's just imagination again.

Yes. Another valuable observation. That is double-wording. There is still a sense of intellectualising the language of this. I am still noticing hesitation surrounding words such as awareness, observation, seeing, etc. They all imply something separate doing something - at least they previously did. Now though, I don't use them as a vantage point from separate entity, but rather awareness, observation, seeing etc appearing from within the construct... man, that is hard to describe. I don't think I did it acceptably. Haha, and it's all seeming now like a weird need to use several words where one will suffice.

Where we began: "LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?" What is your concise answer?

Have you ever experienced me being concise? haha.

There is no self that exists outside of sensations. Thoughts seem to explain them and constructs are erected from these thoughts - including the appearance of a separate self. Sensations are transient and impermanent, so nothing arising from them can be fixed or permanent.

[davjak]

Something that repeatedly emerges is a feeling of trepidation that the realisations appearing to have led to this are faded. There's a sense of only holding a conclusion - I am constructs - without the substance to support it.

But isn't this itself, just more believed thought fabrication? Is there anything there to take as an identity, anything to indicate this is me or mine?

Something repeatedly emerging, feelings of trepidation, realizations appearing, realizations fading, only holding a conclusion, I am a construct... who is believing these appearances? Whatever is showing up, is there someone to whom it happens, someone to whom it belongs? Is there someone present in relation to it to get caught in it? It was just more inner world dynamics and nothing to get seduced by.

Feels like a habit pattern of wanting to understand clearly, to retain knowledge... what is it? Constructs viewing knowledge as a desirable object? Constructs fearing defending this with another without a clear and inarguable defence ready to go? Even arguing it with the sense of self that continuously respawns and appears to challenge it? I can see these are constructs - So many arise in a form of undermining sensation.

As I write this, I can see that these are deeper constructs emerging with more superficial ones, less clear but more structural. My 'swatting' is mostly dealing with superficial layers, not structures erecting them.

If there is no one thinking or controlling thoughts, who is going to benefit from intellectualizing, figuring out, analyzing and believing the mental fabrications? Isn't it all just 'passing show', not going anywhere in particular?

What needs to happen? What is missing and who needs to get it? What mind construct is believable?

[davjak]

I am here, and this is what's happening for me. I was getting it, it faded. It was just a conclusion. It's just a me perpetuated by belief in thoughts of me and what is happening for me.

[Cabs]

Yes, I see and agree with everything you said. It is being aware and under the spell simultaneously. The magic show never ends, but there is no need to participate. Spectating is better.

What needs to happen? What is missing and who needs to get it? What mind construct is believable?

Nothing. No-one. They're all believable - as in seductive and convincing - but none are to be believed. There is a sense of awe at the perfection of it. It is amazing.

It's just a me perpetuated by belief in thoughts of me and what is happening for me.

Yes. Thoughts will never stop arising, but belief doesn't have to be one of them. If it is, so be it. There's no-one there to believe it anyway, it's a belief-thought believing another thought - not a 'me' believing.

[davjak]

Yes, I see and agree with everything you said. It is being aware and under the spell simultaneously. The magic show never ends, but there is no need to participate. Spectating is better.

Isn't spectating another word for witnessing, which is dividing experience into a witness and what is witnessed? Where would the viewing position of a spectator be? It's more imaginary form. Nothing can be made from thought that is of any use. It leaves only what is seen, what is heard, felt, tasted, smelled and mental formations with meaningless stories. If there seems to be something else, is it only imagined, i.e. a mental formation taken to mean this or that?

What needs to happen? What is missing and who needs to get it? What mind construct is believable?
Nothing. No-one. They're all believable - as in seductive and convincing - but none are to be believed. There is a sense of awe at the perfection of it. It is amazing.

These responses seem to indicate we can consider wrapping up this inquiry, but I am not so sure you feel that is really the case. Is there anything else we need to address? How do you feel about this possibility? If you feel there is more to go, we can continue. It has to feel right in the gut, so, is there any hesitation on the central question of a separate entity, a separately, independently operating presence? Do you have any lingering doubts?

What about the habit of verbal proliferation and analysis when there seems to be a problem to solve or an answer that needs to be found? Of course, the habit is what it is and will take care of itself so to speak, in due course, but the pertinent question is what feels like it still needs to be understood? What still needs to be grasped through mental effort, and what is the mental reaction when something feels out of reach? And what is the felt experience of this?

Let's look at the questions below to see if responses come with ease and simplicity or whether they trigger thought profusion and analysis.

What is the sense of control?
What is to be done about thought?
What is the experiencer?
What is left of identity?
What is separation?

[Cabs]

Isn't spectating another word for witnessing, which is dividing experience into a witness and what is witnessed? Where would the viewing position of a spectator be? It's more imaginary form. Nothing can be made from thought that is of any use. It leaves only what is seen, what is heard, felt, tasted, smelled and mental formations with meaningless stories. If there seems to be something else, is it only imagined, i.e. a mental formation taken to mean this or that?

Yes. This is correct. The habit of using analogy and metaphor frequently to explain things results in imagery and imagination, most often inaccurate. Misleading at best. This has been pointed out numerous times here and I am finally seeing it.

These responses seem to indicate we can consider wrapping up this inquiry, but I am not so sure you feel that is really the case. Is there anything else we need to address? How do you feel about this possibility? If you feel there is more to go, we can continue.

I feel both - no-self has been realised, and that it exists amongst a turmoil of habit. I feel fine about the possibility, yet this does feel like only the very beginning. There is clearly a lot more to it than simply realising no-self. Those are the thoughts emerging recently - thoughts about the seeming dichotomy between this and the experience of what appears as day to day life - how one appears to function within that.

It has to feel right in the gut, so, is there any hesitation on the central question of a separate entity, a separately, independently operating presence? Do you have any lingering doubts?

The answer is no. Yes, there are doubts, questions, challenges, distractions, and countless other things that emerge constantly, but only ever as thoughts with no ground (beyond habit). It has been immensely valuable having these daily sessions to highlight these habitual tendencies, and your keen observations and correcting questions do appear important. There is a thought of holding connected to thoughts of doubt. That said, there is a noticeable repetition of key questions you pose that always seem to arise: What needs to happen? Is there anyone this is happening to? etc. And what are you really, other than these questions and prompts that appear on my laptop screen?

What about the habit of verbal proliferation and analysis when there seems to be a problem to solve or an answer that needs to be found?

Yes. That is a habit. It is a clear representation of what the thought stream is. Seeing it simply AS that, however, is key. Not appropriating weight or importance to it. But what can be done? It just is what it is. Who could do anything about it anyway? No-one!

Of course, the habit is what it is and will take care of itself so to speak, in due course, but the pertinent question is what feels like it still needs to be understood?

I don't feel that anything else needs to be understood - or realised - the feeling is more an imbalance of habit vs clarity. If by "in due course" you mean that gradually the balance shifts - wonderful.

What still needs to be grasped through mental effort, and what is the mental reaction when something feels out of reach?

The appearance is that 'mental effort' IS required to see thoughts for what they are, but there is no controller capable of, or choosing to, employ mental effort. It is just there, or it isn't. The reaction appears as effort, striving, remembering, control, etc. but that is not a choice either. It is just what is in that moment. There is no way to make any of it happen, even with understanding.

And what is the felt experience of this?

You know, thought predominates so much experience that the 'felt' sense is often not clear. I would say that there is a general air of calmness across everything now. Almost a yielding? It's lighter.

What is the sense of control? Thought.
What is to be done about thought? Nothing.
What is the experiencer? Thought.
What is left of identity? Nothing.
What is separation? Illusion. Thought.

[davjak]

There is clearly a lot more to it than simply realising no-self.

Yes, no separate self is still far from the end of solidified, time-bound identification.

Those are the thoughts emerging recently - thoughts about the seeming dichotomy between this and the experience of what appears as day to day life - how one appears to function within that.

This is something to look at, then. What is the dichotomy? What feels divided from daily life?

And what are you really, other than these questions and prompts that appear on my laptop screen?

There is no answer to this beyond superficial stories, but we can do a Zoom after we wrap up, if you like.

Yes. That is a habit. It is a clear representation of what the thought stream is. Seeing it simply AS that, however, is key. Not appropriating weight or importance to it. But what can be done? It just is what it is. Who could do anything about it anyway? No-one!

Yes, taking it to be what I am is the dream. Actions, behaviors, memories, speech, images, sounds, tastes, smells, habits, sensations, thinking, apparent passage of time, any and all experience is potential fodder for self-identification.

I don't feel that anything else needs to be understood - or realised - the feeling is more an imbalance of habit vs clarity. If by "in due course" you mean that gradually the balance shifts - wonderful.

Yes, nothing can make anything happen, so to say how things are, how they should be or how they will be is just delusion.

What is left of identity? Nothing.

This has to remain an open-ended question for now. As I think you agreed, this is more like a beginning than a completion. Very good on the rest of the answers though.
What is the sense of control? Thought.
What is to be done about thought? Nothing.
What is the experiencer? Thought.
What is separation? Illusion. Thought.

[Cabs]

There is clearly a lot more to it than simply realising no-self.
Yes, no separate self is still far from the end of solidified, time-bound identification.

Thoughts on this?

Also, some posts back you used the word 'energetics'. Can you define what you meant by that term?

Those are the thoughts emerging recently - thoughts about the seeming dichotomy between this and the experience of what appears as day to day life - how one appears to function within that.
This is something to look at, then. What is the dichotomy? What feels divided from daily life?

Haha, I have written a few things to attempt to express the feeling here, but all of them are not true.

A direct experience to illustrate is: Another person tells me, or asks me something. I experience that as thoughts and sensations. Then I experience not having a response - it's just an experience. There is simultaneously an experience of response arising that corresponds to the illusion. The experience is both nothing and participation in the illusion.

That IS the experience. And it IS bloody weird! Haha.

And what are you really, other than these questions and prompts that appear on my laptop screen?
There is no answer to this beyond superficial stories, but we can do a Zoom after we wrap up, if you like.

Yeah, that would be nice.

Yes, taking it to be what I am is the dream. Actions, behaviors, memories, speech, images, sounds, tastes, smells, habits, sensations, thinking, apparent passage of time, any and all experience is potential fodder for self-identification.

Yes. This is a valuable, all-encompassing wrap.

Yes, nothing can make anything happen, so to say how things are, how they should be or how they will be is just delusion.

Another valuable tool. Essentially a litmus test. Corresponds to my earlier response regarding 'daily life'.

What is left of identity? Nothing.
This has to remain an open-ended question for now. As I think you agreed, this is more like a beginning than a completion. Very good on the rest of the answers though.

Yes. The experience is open-ended. The answer was based on there being no footing for an identity to stand on.

There remains an impulse toward verbosity and proliferation (i like your descriptors). But there is also a growing sense of culling deluded waste. This reply still took an hour to complete (amongst other things) because of this habit, but what remains is concise.

[davjak]

There is clearly a lot more to it than simply realising no-self.
Yes, no separate self is still far from the end of solidified, time-bound identification.
Thoughts on this?

This inquiry addresses the initial, grosser levels of identity.

Also, some posts back you used the word 'energetics'. Can you define what you meant by that term?

No, I have no idea what it was in reference to, but it's just what came out. Maybe it was to say that everything can't simply be reduced to thought. That would be simplistic, logical, conceptual. Nothing can actually be got hold of with words.

A direct experience to illustrate is: Another person tells me, or asks me something. I experience that as thoughts and sensations. Then I experience not having a response - it's just an experience. There is simultaneously an experience of response arising that corresponds to the illusion. The experience is both nothing and participation in the illusion.

That IS the experience. And it IS bloody weird! Haha.

I'm not entirely following your description of the experience, but I think what you are getting at is the sense of experiencing two aspects. If so, what are the two aspects, an actor and a presence aware of the actor? Is this what feels like a dichotomy?

Another valuable tool. Essentially a litmus test. Corresponds to my earlier response regarding 'daily life'.

What do you mean by valuable tool?