philipped this is your thread

[philipped]

Hello Nona,

Another late evening, with not much energy to respond.

I read your post this morning though and appreciated the time you took to respond to all my worries!

I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Love,

Philippe

[nonaparry]

Thanks for letting me know.

It's easy for this one to respond to a list of worries; it is clear here there is no one to own them.

Look again at ownership; are those worries and fears really "yours"?? Says who? How do they come to be labeled 'mine'? Could they just as easily be labeled "red" or "starshine"?? Check it!!

Rest well,
love
Nona

[philipped]

Hello Nona,

i remind you again of the fan; when the power is switched off, the blades continue to turn, but ever more slowly until they stop.

Yeah, I guess I need some more patience for the blades to stop! I am kind of trying to reach to them and stop them forcefully. Quite an unpleasant experience :-)

Now check where 'bad' is. In your Direct Experience, is there 'bad' any more than there is a 'self' to be bad?? Check it!!!

Bad is nowhere in my direct experience. It's just in the content of a thought.

what exactly is broken? Please check.

When I allow myself to simply be with my direct experience (or be the experience), nothing is broken. When I start believing or identifying with my thoughts, a lot seems to be broken!

Most of the time, my initial reaction is to get offended, or scared, etc. There is a process of having to consciously dis-identify from my reaction. Kind of reminding myself there is no self that need to take this personally.

SEE how the fan is slowing down...

Thanks for pointing out in my direct experience the fan metaphor. It's helpful.

If it's any assurance, it is clear to this one that you have seen through the 'self', and when we are complete, other guides will look at our conversation and confirm that you have seen, or ask questions, or ask me to ask questions. We don't leave it to chance!

That's definitely a reassurance.

You identify with the fear? Really? Is the fear really 'you'? We've discovered that 'self' is just a thought; what exactly is fear?

What happens is that I dislike the fear so much that I have a bunch of "I", "mine" thoughts either about it or about the situation. Then it's difficult for me to not believe these thoughts, to not start identifying with these thoughts. Habit, I guess :-)

A thought is still lurking in your present experience? No way! Direct experience is without thought; it's the experience of sensations before thought!

Well, my direct experience can be awareness of thought. Now, if I believe the thought a self arises; if I don't, it's just a thought passing by. But I do appreciate that if I pay exclusive attention to sensations, then thoughts are not there. And only thoughts can take ownership of the sensations. This is really the key transition for me: when thoughts arise, taking ownership of the experience. I miss that transition again and again. Habit again...

There is no one to feel terrified. This is just a story, dear. There is a feeling; you label it terror; you frighten yourself with it; then you tell the story of how terrified you are.
What is there in reality?? In reality there is a body; it has sensations. That is all. One sensation among others, until mind pops a label on it. Check this!!!

You know, when I read this quote, it sounds so simple. And in fact, it is simple. Seeing that labeling process on a continuous basis, on the other hand, is not easy, at least for me.

OK, let's tackle your question from a few days ago:

So moving right along...explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

When I stay with my immediate, direct experience, I can only perceive sights, sounds, smells, taste, sensations, thoughts and emotions. None those experiences belong to me. They start belonging to me only when a "my" or "mine" thought arise. Or "I" start experiencing or controlling these experiences if a "I" thought arises. For example, if the thought "I hear a sound" arises and it's not simply seen as a thought, there is this sense that there is something (the so-called self) that's hearing, when actually, there is just a sound that's being known.

Cheers,

Philippe

[nonaparry]

Wonderful reply!! The sense here is that the fan is slowing down.

What happens is that I dislike the fear so much that I have a bunch of "I", "mine" thoughts either about it or about the situation. Then it's difficult for me to not believe these thoughts, to not start identifying with these thoughts. Habit, I guess :-)

What is it about fear that you have decided to dislike?
Fear is a defense mechanism; it can be VERY useful!! For example, you are walking in the bush and observe a snake; fear propels you far around the snake "just in case" the snake is dangerous. Or you are at the edge of a very steep cliff, looking down; fear prevents you from leaping into the void "just to see what happens".
Fear reminds us not to do dangerous things. And some "dangerous" things turn out not to be dangerous at all!!! Crossing a river on a swing-bridge frightened the heck out of this one; the bridge was well-constructed and held for hundreds of other travelers, yet fear of falling paralyzed her. Fear of being left behind, of not getting back to transportation, finally outweighed fear of the bridge, and Nona crossed the bridge.

Fear doesn't want us to look at the thing the fear is attached to, yet it is in looking closely that we discover whether or not the thing feared is actually dangerous.
In looking at the snake, i discover whether it is a reptile or a coiled rope. Looking at the bridge, i notice people are crossing it without falling. Looking at the fear of losing an "I", i notice there is no "I" to lose. None.

I believe the thought a self arises; if I don't, it's just a thought passing by.

Beautifully stated!!!

You know, when I read this quote, it sounds so simple. And in fact, it is simple. Seeing that labeling process on a continuous basis, on the other hand, is not easy, at least for me.

SEEing the labeling process happening is not 'easy' because we blind ourselves to it in order to continue believing the story of Self. Yet once the illusion of self is seen through, we now have the power to stop and check how the labels are arriving! With practice, this too can become habit. Experience; label; checking; label-removal; experience. Checking is just another part of Life life-ing!

explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works

When I stay with my immediate, direct experience, I can only perceive sights, sounds, smells, taste, sensations, thoughts and emotions. None those experiences belong to me. They start belonging to me only when a "my" or "mine" thought arise. Or "I" start experiencing or controlling these experiences if a "I" thought arises. For example, if the thought "I hear a sound" arises and it's not simply seen as a thought, there is this sense that there is something (the so-called self) that's hearing, when actually, there is just a sound that's being known.

Beautiful. Thank you. How does it feel to see this?

And how would you describe the illusion of self to someone who is interested but has never heard about this illusion?

[philipped]

Hello Nona,

What is it about fear that you have decided to dislike?

That's a really good question. I see fear as an obstacle in my life, as preventing me to do what I want. I also see it as creating a lot of confusion and doubt, which I don't like for the same reasons. I agree with you that in case of physical safety, fear can be very useful. For me, I think fear arises as a very old conditioned pattern and it arises when there is, objectively, not that much to fear anymore. When I believe that fear, then I don't have as much choice as I'd like to have. If I can see the fear as just a conditioned response, then I have more freedom. You have been very helpful in pointing out to me that fear and liberation from the believe in a self are not tied together. Which allows me to be more accepting of the fear and more curious about it. It's not as much the enemy anymore.

Beautiful. Thank you. How does it feel to see this?

Thank you so much for asking this question. I have been wrestling how to answer this honestly for a while, sitting in front of my computer. It forces me to reflect back on what has happened the last couple of weeks and take stock.

I don't feel anything special about what I wrote, because I have known that for a while. What I feel very grateful for is your persistence in pointing out to me all the believes I had about liberation that created great doubt, anxiety and fear. That still arises, but it's much easier for me to disengage from it and simply see it as a conditioned response. I am actually really curious to see how that is going to unfold and see how much the fan can slow down :-)

So there is relief tied to seeing that I was attached to a very specific and narrow view of liberation and what the outcome of my meditation practice should be. I also want to remind myself to be more kind and compassionate toward myself and watch for the belief that somehow I need to fix myself.

And how would you describe the illusion of self to someone who is interested but has never heard about this illusion?

One of my preferred Buddha quote is this one:

Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering.

In my own words, I would first ask the person to listen to a sound. Then ask them who is hearing the sound. They most likely would tell me "I do." I would then point out that "I do" is simply a thought. I would ask again to describe to me their direct experience of hearing the sound and see what their response is and go from there.

I might also explain that "I", "my", "mine" are simply concepts (labels) that don't have an actual existence in our direct experience. These concepts are useful within a social context but understanding that they are simply concepts is very important because when we believe in them, they distort the way we perceive reality.

I could give the example of labeling a cup "my" cup. While it is useful to agree on what is mine and yours, in actual reality, there is just a cup (which in itself is also just a concept, a label I put on my direct experience.) Useful to communicate with other people, but not useful if we believe that the label is the actual experience of the object.

Love,

Philippe

[nonaparry]

Wow. The sweetness of this is overwhelming. Welcome home.

i will ask the other guides to check in and see if they have any questions for you.

i am eager to get you into Unleashed, our aftercare Facebook group, where you may learn more about the energies you experienced. i also recommend our new group Dealing With the Residue where we use The Work of Byron Katie to undo our stories. If you are on Facebook, please friend me, Nona Parry, and i will add you to these groups.

It's been a privilege to converse with you.
love
Nona

[nonaparry]

Philippe, i know you've answered all of these, and for the convenience of the other guides who are checking, would you be so kind as to answer them again here, from your current experience?

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Thanks so much!!!
love
Nona

[philipped]

Hello Nona,

Thank you for your kind words. It has been a pleasure to work with you. I liked the clear and compassionate guidance.

I will follow your suggestion and join Facebook.

And I will respond to the 5 questions tomorrow.

With much appreciation,

Philippe

[philipped]

Hello Nona,

Here are the answers to your questions:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

In my present experience, there is no "me" anywhere, in any way, shape or form. I cannot answer the question "Was there ever?" from a direct experience point of view. My intellect will say "no", but I can only say that every time I think of checking in my direct experience, the answer is that there is no "me".

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of a separate self happens when I identify with my experience. The process of identification involves believing that there is a "I" who experiences phenomena. For example, there is identification if I believe that when a sound arises, there is a "I" that hears the sound. In reality, through direct experience I can see that there is just hearing of the sound. The addition of an "I" that hears the sound is only conceptual and is unnecessary. The same can be said of everything that is experienced through the senses, including thoughts and emotions. Thoughts are particularly interesting, because while nobody is experiencing or having a thought, the content of the thought is what carries the "I". Believing that this thought content has an actual existence is the illusion.

Similarly, the illusion of a separate self arises when I take ownership of a particular experience through the thought "my" or "mine."

3) How does it feel to see this?

As most of the conversation we have had shows, I get a bit hung up on that question. I don't feel anything special at all. And there is definitely some belief that I should! So for now, I do my best to identify the set of believes that thinks my experience should be different, were I to really see through the illusion of self. When I can see these believes, then experience simply gently unfolds. If I don't see them, then doubt, fear and anxiety arise.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

I would ask them to listen to a sound and ask them "who listens to the sound?" The most likely answer is "Me." I would point out that "me" is a thought and ask if they could find "me" in their direct experience. And I would keep conversing like this with them to help them that "me" is just a thought.

Another way to describe the illusion is to point out that "I", "me", "my", "mine" are concepts that don't have an actual existence in reality. That they are useful in a social context to help create boundaries and agreements. But if not properly seen for what they really are, they lead to a lot of distortions of reality, where most of reality is seen through a conceptual layer rather than directly.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think that my first direct experience of the illusion of self was many years ago. Since then, I have had a lot of doubt about how much I had seen, mainly because of this belief that things should be different (read better!) if I had really seen "properly" through the illusion of self.

Nona has really helped me see these believes and how a part of me was really attached to not wanting to see through the illusion, because admitting to seeing it would mean things would be just the way they are and I would not suddenly become more "acceptable", less anxious, etc. So it was not so much a question of looking, but a willingness to inquire into my belief system. The looking and seeing in my direct experience had already happened, but part of the belief system did not want to accept what was seen. And I would say that there are still remnant of this belief system and that I am excited to work toward discovering more and more of it.

Cheers,

Philippe

[nonaparry]

Thanks so much!! The other guides have confirmed you have seen it.

Have you joined Facebook? Don't forget to friend me, Nona Parry, so i can add you to our aftercare groups!

[philipped]

Hi Nona,

Thanks for letting me know! I'll join Facebook in the coming days and will make sure to friend you.

Looking forward to the next phase!

Love,

Philippe

[philipped]

Hello Nona,

When I search for "Nona Parry" on Facebook, I have 3 results. I think that you are the one who is listed as being in Pasadena, although your page mentions Wellington, like on this forum. If that's correct, it looks like I can only click "like" and there is no friend link. How does that work?

Philippe