looking to get this done

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thewanderer
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby thewanderer » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:18 pm

Is there someone who "has" self identification? Or is the  thought pattern "self-identification" happening?
Ahh, of course. Self identification is just another dose of thoughts and feelings
How is it exactly when the shift feels less prominent?
I've noticed that the shift feels less prominent when there are a lot of stories running through my head. After a while i'll be like 'the shift doesnt feel as prominent anymore'. So, my recognition that the 'shift isn't as prominent' really is just more thoughts and feelings, just another pattern playing out!

What does "I hit stream entry" mean
Stream entry is the first stage of awakening in the mahasi sayadaw theravada Buddhist tradition. It takes a lot of momentum to attain it (usually happens on retreat).
Is there a you in any shape or form?
I do exist in some capacity. There are emotions, thoughts, pain etc that are all real and only exist in my field of experience - not anyone elses (unless they're psychic? lol). So, there is a separate 'me' in that sense. If I were to walk up and kick someone, then to that person, I definitely exist. So there are tangible elements that can be classed as me, however there isn't one, continuous, unchanging entity that is controlling everything. No driver that is causing the thoughts or emotions to come into being. Not even a decision maker present. Decisions are essentially thoughts and emotions that have come into being and mobilised 'me' to take action. Thoughts and emotions come into being of their own accord and the 'flavour' of thought or emotion is determined by internal and external circumstances.

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Ingen
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby Ingen » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:59 pm

Dear wanderer, I think you basically have "it" down, :) but let's really clear it up.
my recognition that the 'shift isn't as prominent' really is just more thoughts and feelings, just another pattern playing out!
Yes. All these thoughts are called "mind". Is there a hierarchy to these patterns? Is there one pattern "thinking" the others? Is there a pattern "watching" the other patterns?
I do exist in some capacity. There are emotions, thoughts, pain etc that are all real and only exist in my field of experience - not anyone elses (unless they're psychic? lol). So, there is a separate 'me' in that sense. If I were to walk up and kick someone, then to that person, I definitely exist. So there are tangible elements that can be classed as me,
The body exists, yes. Does the claim " I have a body" still make sense for you?
To feel another body's emotions you don't even have to be psychic. Mirror neurons make you feel to some degree what another body is going through. Another proof for the arbitrariness of boundaries.
However there isn't one, continuous, unchanging entity that is controlling everything. (...) Decisions are essentially thoughts and emotions that have come into being and mobilised 'me' to take action.
Is there an entity of sorts, however unstable, that is controlling something? If yes, what kind of entity and how is it working? What is the "me" which is mobilized?

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thewanderer
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby thewanderer » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:21 pm

Is there a hierarchy to these patterns? Is there one pattern "thinking" the others?
No, there is not one pattern thinking the others. A pattern can be brought into existence because of the preceding pattern, one thing leads to another, but the preceding pattern does not choose to bring the next one into existence.
Is there a pattern "watching" the other patterns?
I guess I haven't fully seen through the illusion as there does seem to be a 'watcher'. The group of sensations in the head seem to be the centrepoint. Probably because this is where the eyes are. For example, If I try to hold attention on the sensations in the arm then attention will keep jumping back to the head.

I think this is a sticking point for me partly because of my previous Vipassana training, where seeing through the centrepoint is traditionally very difficult.
The body exists, yes. Does the claim " I have a body" still make sense for you?
It feels as if the body is on auto-pilot. When I am walking, the feet are doing their own thing. When I get up to go get a drink, the body does it all automatically. So, there is no 'i' controlling the body. But there does still feel a sense of responsibility for the body, not to abuse it otherwise there will be detrimental experiences. I guess this is influenced by thought patterns, though.
Is there an entity of sorts, however unstable, that is controlling something? If yes, what kind of entity and how is it working? What is the "me" which is mobilized?
I started to write an answer to this and was thinking about what the 'me' is that gets mobilised. I was visualising an emotional response happening and the process of taking action and the effect it has on 'me' and something really strange happened. There was a brief flash of the 'me' not being a solid entity, I could feel pressure at the sides of my head and I was zapped into a different state of mind. I actually sat dumbstruck staring at the screen for a few minutes like 'wtf just happened'. I can't even put my finger on what exact insight into 'no self' have been gained from this but something feels different. If anything, I would say that the centrepoint has 'spread out', that's about the best i can describe it at the minute. Sight also seems more detached from the other sensations in the head. Colours are more vivid. I still feel the pressure at the sides of the head and feel a bit giddy now (some 30 mins later). Just need to wait and see how this pans out, I guess.

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Ingen
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby Ingen » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:59 pm

I was zapped into a different state of mind.
If anything, I would say that the centrepoint has 'spread out', that's about the best i can describe it at the minute.
Sounds interesting. And yes, you should wait how it develops. Seeing through the illusion of self is NOT a state, it is only a shift in perspective. It is very ordinary, on the verge of being boring. But that said, states can happen, and maybe in your case they accompany the shift in perspective.


Is there a watcher? You are answering yourself:
The group of sensations in the head seem to be the centrepoint. Probably because this is where the eyes are.
Is there a watcher, or is there just a group of sensations? Is there a you?

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thewanderer
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby thewanderer » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:05 pm

Is there a watcher, or is there just a group of sensations? Is there a you?
I've been using the following pointers:

Does the centrepoint control anything?
It's clear that this is no. Sensations et. al. appear of their own accord.

Is the centrepoint a permanent entity?
Attention is at the centrepoint more often than it is anywhere else, but on closer inspection the centrepoint isn't a single 'point'. It's a combination of sight, thoughts and sensations in the face and head. Sometimes the sensations are in the forehead, the cheeks, the back of the head etc etc all strung together in sequence to imply a continuous entity, but in reality its a bunch of different sensations.

Does the centrepoint "watch" other sensations?
Part of the centrepoint is the eyes, but do the eyes watch other sensations? That's ridiculous, how can they possibly?! Similar for the sensations in the head, can they see or even feel other sensations, that's impossible, they are their own entity that arise and then vanish. After they vanish, another sensation in the field of experience pops up to take their place.
Is there a you?
There is no 'me' here. Only life living itself. Sensations popping up, doing their thing and then vanishing. No decisions being made, just each instant coming into existence due to previous conditions.

It actually stirred some emotions writing that paragraph out, feels a relief to say it.

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Ingen
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby Ingen » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:42 pm

Hey wanderer, that's it! :)

Nice investigation about your centrepoint. What happened to your "state"?

it feels almoust redundant, but would you write a piece answering the usual "confirmation" questions:

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.

Thank you!

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thewanderer
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby thewanderer » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:57 pm

Hey wanderer, that's it! :)
Thank you for all your time, effort, knowledge and patience, Ingen! It's very much appreciated :)
Nice investigation about your centrepoint. What happened to your "state"?
The full effects of the state have subsided, but it seems to have left a kind of 'clarity' behind. Things seem more vivid (colours and textures). There's also more of a sense of ease with the world. Also, looking at the mechanics of the 'self' in action is extremely easy, it's just a case of taking my attention away from the inner dialogue and towards present moment experience. Of course, it's difficult to tell what has been caused by my earlier shift and what has been caused by this state. I've been thinking a bit about what the state could have been and a few things have sprung to mind (I've worked my way through much of the Progress of Insight in the past, so it could be one of the earlier stages playing out again, or could be an increase in the luminosity aspect of I-Am-Ness, or could be something completely different) but I guess it would probably be wasted energy investing much time trying to figure out what it was for certain. I might have a better idea in a few months, when looking back on the experience.
it feels almoust redundant, but would you write a piece answering the usual "confirmation" questions:
1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
There is no me. No 'me' thinking, no 'me' feeling emotion, no 'me' feeling pain, no 'me' making decisions. Instead, there are thoughts arising, emotions arising, painful sensations arising, and conditioned responses arising - completely of their own accord. There is no controller sitting behind the scenes deciding what action to take and the thought that there would be seems quite ridiculous now. My name is just a label that points at 'me' and doesn't encapsulate 'me'. There is no one 'me' that persist throughout time, just a bundle of sensations that are ever changing, arising and passing and constantly being replaced by other sensations.

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
The self is the illusion of a single, unchanging entity that lives inside this body and controls all actions, thoughts and decisions. In reality there is no controller, just sensations arising of their own accord. These sensations are woven together in such a way that it gives the impression of a 'me'. For instance, a thought will lead to an emotion, which is just a group of sensations, which in turn can lead to another thought, which can then intensify the emotion, which can keep going round in a viscious cycle until an impulse causes an action to be taken (motor functions in the body are activated). The 'self' seems to have a centrepoint in the head/chest region, probably because sight and thoughts exist here. Attention jumps back and forth between the centrepoint and other sensations very quickly to give the impression that the centrepoint is 'experiencing' the other sensations.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?
With the absense of self, day to day life is a more interesting and enjoyable experience. It's now possible to see the mechanism of the self in action, so I am less likely to get caught in negative mindstates. Emotions and thoughts can be looked at more objectively, without clinging to them as 'mine', which means that there is the ability to allow emotions and thought patterns to pass quicker than usual.

4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.
It would be difficult. Someone who has never heard of no self would probably be quite dismissive or give you blank stares if you started to go on about the fact that they don't really exist! They'd maybe even call the men in white coats! So, I'd probably start off by asking them to try to keep an open mind, bear with me and look at their direct experience. Then start pulling at the threads. Ask them how they decided to do 'x'. There would probably be a reply about 'my thoughts', so I'd ask how they chose which thought came into existence and ask where the thought came from. Then start looking at the rest of the illusion of self - emotions, and other sensations in the body and see if they brought them into existence. I'd ask them about the 'story of them' throughout their life and ask if it was real (that seemed to be the clincher for me).

Thanks again!

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Ingen
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Re: looking to get this done

Postby Ingen » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:34 pm

Wonderful, wanderer. No more questions from my side ;). It was an enjoyable hike with you.

I will get you "confirmed" asap. There is a discussion part of the forum which is accessible to the blue ones. It would also be nice if you join our quite lively Facebook "aftercare"-group to keep in touch. See you!


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