FreeWill444 let's do it.

[FreeWill444]

Hi Ilona,

I feel like I've hit a brick wall. Everything seemed to be flowing nicely yesteday but today I just can't concentrate. Its that damn slippery feeling again, I'm trying to look at self but I can't grab hold of it. I'm going to answer your questions anyway, and maybe things will become clearer.

Tell me, is there a real story?

There can't be a real story, how can there be? Events really happen, but the story we relate back to ourselves can't be true because we can only ever interpret an event as it happens to us, but it would then be interpreted differently by eveyone else. So facts of a story might be real, but the story we tell ourselves about the event isn't.

How does story change ifs expending on mood?

Well, when there is happiness, then the story is seen in a positive light, but when there is sadness the story is negative. Again, there is that unconscious reaction to mood. Its like I'm identifying completely with my thoughts as absolute truth, when thought is just interpreting an experience in a certain way. Some days I might find something funny, the next day annoying. Neither is necessarily true, the object or event just is and its my interpretation of it that changes.

How does story about genevieve change when looked at through the eys of your parents,your friend, an aquintance, neighbour, somebody passing by on the street? 

The story of Genevieve changes depending on the different interpretations of 'me', and their experience of interacting with Genevieve. My parents would have a much more complex idea of me as a daughter, uni student, sister, hard worker etc, while as stranger would know nothing of me and might just see the idea of 'young adult female'. The interpetation of Genevieve changes based on their interpretations of their experiences with me. But all of these stories applied to me are just stories made up as a reaction to their experience of me.

Is there a real story that is solid and unchanging? 

There can't be. 'Genevieve' seems to be just a concept that has come about as a sort of wierd amalgamation of thoughts arising interpreting the experiences of this body, that constantly change, as well as labels applied to 'Genevieve' by outside sources. These labels are accepted or rejected as 'truth' by the mind, but they can constantly change. The truth isn't truth if it is constantly changing, so the story can't be real. I know this intellectually, but it just feels so real!

Remember something from childhood, is it the same story as you remembered it 5 years ago? Take a good look and describe your findings. 

Okay, so I was thinking of a girl at primary school who bullied me by ignoring me, pushing me out of the group I was in. At the time it was horrible, I ended up switching friendship groups, but later got over her not liking me and rejoined. Five years ago after my family and I had moved cities and I had changed schools and was all settled in with good friends, I got a letter from her. She had also switched schools and seemed lonely, like she wanted to reconnect. This time when I thought back to the way she treated me I felt good, like I'd won and now she'd get her karma etc. I saw what had happened as being a sort of predestined thing that I learnt a lesson from. Now when I look back on the event, I don't really care. It just looks like little kids fighting and playing like they seem to, unpleasant at the time, but I got through it okay.

The event that happened is no different, things just happened as they happened. Its just my interpretation of it that has changed over time. I imagine the other girl's interpretation of events changed as well. Neither interpretation can be true though, because they keep changing. The story keeps changing.

Like I said, I've hit a bit of a brick wall with this. But even writing this has helped. I guess there's nothing I can do but keep digging away.

Peace and thanks,
Genevieve

[FreeWill444]

Okay, I think I'm getting this...

I've heard it millions of times before but never really understood it fully...the mind tells stories to strengthen its sense of self. There's no actual Genevieve, nothing that can be touched that is 'me', the sense of Genevieve just comes from a constant stream of stories the mind keeps making and repeating to enforce the sense that there is actually something there. Damn, it was clear like a flash before, but it sounds strange and bulky now describing it. I was listening to music thinking about how a friend of mine (we were extremely close) recently dropped out of my life completely after she got a boyfriend. I realised how I was just retelling that same story again and again to myself to reinforce that feeling of, 'I feel used' as a part of what makes 'Genevieve'.

God, that's crazy. Everything I think is 'me' is just a result of stories being told and retold? Its scary as much as it is funny. I'm hoping as I go on it will lean more towards the funny side :-)

I need to investigate this, but please keep giving me your guidance on this Ilona. It helps just knowing you're nearby to bounce these ideas off and I'm truly grateful.

Okay, going to go investigate some more. This process really can't be forced can it? The more I grip onto concepts the harder they are to realise. If I just keep relaxing, questioning and watching, then I'm more likely to get those flashes of intuitive understanding that are impossible to explain, but make perfect sense to me.

Peace and thanks,
Genevieve

[Ilona]

Great investigation. Feeling of hitting a brick wall is a deffinite sign that you have been hitting something that have never done before. This wall is not solid. It's part of process. Trust the process.


So you see that the story of genevieve is a fiction. There is real story, but the content about genevieve is ever changing. What drives the story?
Is there an actress?
Can you choose the role or is it just playing out by itself?

Have a look here, tell me, do you need to believe the story? Are problems real? What is going on if there is no story?

[FreeWill444]

Hi Ilona,

Quick update before I get to your questions. I'm still pushing against that brick wall, glad to hear its not solid because it still feels quite tough, but I think I'm making headway.

So you see that the story of genevieve is a fiction. There is real story, but the content about genevieve is ever changing. What drives the story? 

I'm seeing the story of genevieve is a story but you're right, I don't think I've ever looked this far before so its taking some time for this to be internalised. Yes, the real story is basically the things that happen to the physical body, in the physical world. The mind is responsible for the changing content, and therefore it is responsible for driving the story. As content created by the mind is changed or added to, the story of 'genevieve' changes and becomes even more complex.

Is there an actress?

My immediate response is, 'Yes, genevieve is the actress', but an actress implies something solid and unchanging, something consciously directing the performance. Since genevieve is a bunch of ever changing concepts, then it can't be the actress, there isn't any actress.

Can you choose the role or is it just playing out by itself?

No, the role arises the same way in which the fiction of genevieve arises, thoughts creating identity out of reactions to external and internal stimuli whether it be other people, or experiences. The role of seeker, for instance, was not chosen, it arose out of a reaction to things read in a book and the resulting thought, 'I want that'. The role of seeker grew as more books were read and the desire grew, but none of it happened consciously. Once the role of seeker was established, it was just playing itself effortlessly, even though genevieve would tell you depending on when you asked, that there a lot of effort involved.

Have a look here, tell me, do you need to believe the story?

I've spent most of my life building up this story and believing it to be absolute truth. When asked this the mind throws up questions like, 'How will I manage if I don't believe the story?, How will I function?, Wont I go mad if I let go of this?' There is some nervousness and also some excitement coming up in asking whether I need to believe the story, but that's a good thing surely? If I believed completely in the self that wouldn't happen.

Are problems real?

No, experiences happen, but something is only a problem if the mind labels it as a problem. Even then, it is only a problem if the label is percieved as truth.

What is going on if there is no story?

If I am not identifying with the story, then there is just life living itself. The world doesn't stop, everything doesn't magically become wonderful, but there would be no self to get in the way of just life unfolding.

Ilona, when you wrote my name genevieve, without a capital letter, that jogged something in me, the feeling of, 'Important things should have a capital letter' (thats the way my Grade 1 teacher explained it). I caught the feeling and realised I was still attributing importance to something that isn't important. An illusion. So I tried writing genevieve without a capital letter and suddenly the importance of 'me' seemed diminished. It felt pretty good, quieter.

I've been writing like crazy to try and sort this stuff out. Just conversations with myself. Questioning these beliefs, thoughts, feelings, trying to break through this illusion of 'me' properly. I'm not content with just a nice experience here or there of no self, I want to see through this fully, completely. Hell, I'm even dreaming about these questions! I think something may be shifting, we'll see. As for now continuing onwards :-)

Peace and thanks,
Genevieve

[Ilona]

You are digging so well and getting closer!

Tell me now, is this search for the truth something that you do or is it just happening as part of the story?
Is there a you, that wakes up?

What does the word I point to?
Can I wake up? Can I see the truth?

Notice reactions in the body- are they happening to 'me', is there a feeler, was there ever?



Keep on digging.
Much love.

[FreeWill444]

Hi Ilona,

I definitely feel something is shifting. There is more of a knowing and feeling of genevieve just being a role, a character, rather than just intellectual belief. I'll get straight to your questions.

Tell me now, is this search for the truth something that you do or is it just happening as part of the story?

Okay, so, the thought is that the search is being done by me, that's what the mind says. But the search being something I do implies that there is a me to search. Really all that is happening is that the need to search, to be a seeker, arises and then seeking happens as part of the story of me. Put simply, there is the illusion 'I' am searching, but searching just happens and then gets retold as part of the story of genevieve.

Is there a you, that wakes up?

That's the problem any term pointing to truth or 'waking up', it implies that ther is someone who will actually wake up. How can 'I' wake up when I don't really exist? Genevieve is just a personality constructed out of spontaneous thoughts arising with the label 'I' slapped on the front. So the idea of 'me' is an illusion. How can something false wake up? It can't.

What does the word I point to?

The word I just points to the label attached to thoughts that arise spontaneously to create a sense of identity. When we're born we are given a name, and then taught that that name means 'me' or 'I'. Over time we learn to attach the thought of I to the body and to thoughts that arise to create a sense of ownership, of there being a me, a personality. In truth the body acts automatically, there is no need for a 'me' to guide it, and given that thoughts arise of their own accord as a response to stimuli there is no I that actually thinks anything. I then, becomes another false label to reinforce the illusion that there is someone in control of life.

Can I wake up? Can I see the truth?

No. How can something illusory see the truth? This is where language starts to fail me a bit but I'll try and explain. Seeing truth implies that there is someone to see that truth, but there isn't anyone. In the moments where thoughts are quiet, or when the illusion of I is recognised, it is like life just looking out. There is no I involved, its just life arising of its own accord. 'I' can't see this, because the 'I' is unconscious, reactionary. How can something unconscious - pretty much a labelling machine - see anything? It can only make its interpretations after the seeing.

Notice reactions in the body- are they happening to 'me', is there a feeler, was there ever?

There is still the belief that reactions are happening to me, but this is growing weaker as the illusions is recognised as just that, an illusion. For instance, if I put my hand on something hot, the usual reaction is, 'I put 'my' hand on something hot and it hurt 'me''. What actually happened was this, the body placed the hand on something hot, pain arose in response to this, and as a result the hand was taken away. To say 'I' put my hand on something hot implies there was someone consciously making a decision to do so, and then that there was a conscious decision to take the hand away. There wasn't, it all happened automatically, but after the fact the mind comes in and labels the experience, makes it part of the story of genevieve.

There was never a feeler, sensations arise and they are felt by the body. At most there is an illusion an 'I' feels things, but in reality things are just felt.

Peace and thanks,
Genevieve

[Ilona]

Great work, genevieve, getting very close.

So, do you exist? Is there a self, in any shape or form in reality?
Was there ever?

[FreeWill444]

Hi Ilona,

Feeling frustrated. I'm seeing all this, I know the answers, but I still feel like I'm identified with my self. I think there is reluctance to let go of the illusion. I mean, I know if it is an illusion there is nothing to let go of but the attachment is still there. Yes I have moments of no self, and they do seem to be getting more frequent, but I haven't had that shift that people seem to experience where I actually fully see the 'me' as an illusion. I understand that life continues pretty much as normal once the 'I' is seen as an illusion, but isn't there a shift where that seeing is pretty much constant? Right now I'm in this wierd limbo where sometimes I see that, and then other times I completely forget and start identifying fully with the mind again.

Most of the resistance seems to arise when I try to see how life is just being lived, without someone in charge. I'll keep looking at this resistance and questioning it. I guess expectation is part of the problem. I keep thinking that to be liberated I should always be aware of no self, but then there's a part of me saying, 'well who then, would be aware of no self?' and 'you can't be that close if you're not aware of this', and a million other things churning around my brain. God this is confusing! But then the whole point of this questioning is proven when I think in a hour I might be exactly clear on all these points, and I have no way of knowing, so there can't be a self controlling and directing etc, etc

On to the questions:

So, do you exist? Is there a self, in any shape or form in reality? Was there ever?

No, I don't exist, I can't exist. But the illusion that I exist still persists. That is, identification with genevieve is still quite strong. No, there is no self. A self can be acted out but there no solid self directing life. Thoughts arise spontaneously, there is no self controlling them although the 'I' label gives the illusion that we own them. The body responds automatically to its surroundings, to stimuli, even to thoughts from the mind, so there isn't a self directing that. There can't ever have been a self because that would mean the self was real at some point when it has never been real, just believed to be real. I am still mostly identifying with thought, even though I can see more and more how thought is just reactionary, nothing seems to have changed or shifted in me. My perspective still seems to be the same.

But then there's the fact that there is no self controlling anything.I can't even decide to focus my attention on these questions for instance. Sometimes attention is fixed and sometimes it wanders. I can't decide because there is no self to decide, but why do I still feel there is? I think you'd better get that zen stick out Ilona, I have a feeling it might be needed =S

Peace and thanks (and confusion)
Genevieve

[Ilona]

Ok, the illusion does not get destroyed. It's only seen for what it is- an illusion. A fog. we are so used to live in our heads. Thinking thinking and more thinking, past future and possible scenarios. This is illusion, that content of thinking is reality.

Seeing thought the illusion of self does not change what is, only reveals what is real and what is imaginary.
You can enjoy and live the story, and know that it's a lovely story, no more than that. :)

[Ilona]

I copy paste your message here:



Hi Ilona,

For some reason I can't post this message, I keep getting an error thingy, so I thought I'm pm you directly instead. Hope that's okay.

Let's get straight into it :-)

So, do you exist?


The idea of there being a me only exists through the attachment of the thought I to things it believes it can claim ownership of. Thoughts, feelings and sensations arise both from the mind and the body. Mind has a thought and that triggers other reactive thoughts and perhaps actions from the body, or the body acts automatically and thoughts arise in reaction the experience. The lablel I is attached to the front of things to give the illusion if a self, of ownership, but I don't exist. There is no I directing and controlling all this, just the illusion of one.

Is there a self, in any shape or form in reality?


No. Thoughts happen, the physical world happens, things move and life is lived, but there is no self controlling all of this. Everything just happens spontaneously. Certainly there can be an illusion of a self controlling and directing, but the idea of there being a controlling self is just another thought that arises automatically, and is repeated enough that it is taken for the truth.

Was there ever?



There was never a self. There is an illusion of self existing, and as long as that illusion is believed it is taken for the truth. All that means though is that an I-thought is believed and acted upon as if true. There was never a self though, just thoughts arising, body acting, forgetting this and remembering again and then forgetting remembering etc etc. Ilona, things are changing even though no change is really occuring. I was walking home today thinking about what I wrote to you yesterday, about my frustration and how nothing had shifted. It struck me how ridiculous it was to expect a 'shift', it seems like even after all the work we were doing I was still expecting liberation to change the way I felt, to add something on to me. It was a subtle belief, but it was still there. But there isn't anything that needs to shift is there? Feelings still occur, thoughts still occur, sensations in the body occur but that just arises too. There's nothing that needs to be done about it because it just happens of its own accord.

Again, its hard to express but its like, at the moment everything feels exactly the same, even the belief in I still occurs, but there's more of a feeling of something or nothing behind it. Yes, the belief in I is occuring, but that's just a thought believing in a thought and that just arises. Sometimes the thought doesn't believe in the thought and instead believes it is the no self and that is okay too, it just arises. Then the thought, 'I can't get this, it's impossible to get' and that just happens as well. Feelings, 'oh no, but what if this is it? I don't feel any different?' feeling anxious, hoping to feel good, they all just happen and there's absolutely nothing to be done about it. There's nothing to grasp, nothing to get. It. Just. Is! It doesn't feel wonderful, and then sometimes it does but that doesn't matter. And even when it matters it doesn't matter, just a thought is believed in.

I don't know anymore, but if this is it. Good god, I can see why they call it the cosmic joke. Its ridiculous! Oh man, laughing hysterically now, crying even. This is total bullshit :-D

Peace and thanks,
Genevieve

[Ilona]

Hahahahaha, I'm laughthing with you, sweet genevieve. Isn't that plain crazy that billions of humans got sucked into this idea that there is this me in control of what is! And yes, it's just is.
Hahaha!

Nice!

So, how would you explain this to someone who never heard of it, but is curious?

Give your best shot at that :)


Lots of love!

[FreeWill444]

Hi Ilona,

How would I describe this to someone who has never heard of it, but is curious? Well, its a tough thing to describe because essentially nothing happened. I would start off by saying its like the belief in a solid, controlling self is dropped. But then that implies there is someone or something doing the dropping of the belief. Its just like all of a sudden it was seen there really wasn't anything to do because nothing could be done. I suppose it could be explained by saying there is a freedom from the belief in self, but again that implies there is someone to be free of the belief. There are really no words for this, but I would say it is the realising that there is literally nothing to realise. Thoughts arise, the body acts and life is lived, but its not happening to anyone. Language is far too clumsy for this sort of thing, I would just tell them to keep watching and looking for the self.

I couldn't help myself, out of interest last night I read a tiny bit of a passage from one of Adyashanti's books (I haven't been anywhere near any spiritual stuff since I found this website I swear) just reading it, when he started talking about what 'enlightenment' should feel like, I started laughing like crazy again because it was just so funny! I mean, all this 'yes, there are three stages to awakening' and 'when you enter the stream of consciousness and are one with the creators love', its just ridiculous! There's no one there for that to happen to, and even when it does happen to a self, its just happening to an illusion. How can anything happen to an illusion? Then I felt slightly sacriligeous for laughing at Adyashanti, and that was funny too.

Its not even like I'm constantly aware of this, everything is the same, but now there's just nothing to do about it, even when things are being done, when worries are being worried. I have the urge to type there's a letting go, a freedom from all this, but there isn't, there is still holding on but there's nothing wrong with the holding on, it is just seen for what it is and it happens. :-) like I said, language is too clumsy for this sort of thing but I think you can get where I'm coming from Ilona :-)

Peace and thanks,
Genevieve

[Ilona]

:) great stuff, I can see that you see, or in other words - seeing is happening :)
What was the last bit that pushed you over, so it became clear?
Can you look back and see if you can pinpoint that non event and the last step that was needed for it to happen?

Lots of love.

[FreeWill444]

Hi Ilona,

That thing that pushed me over was when you asked me if there was ever a self, and I wrote back to you about how frustrated I was that I wasn't getting it. Then all that day I was questioning if there was ever a self and there was this realisation that there couldn't be. Then the question arose, if ther was no self, what needed to be 'got'? And then seeing happened. It was very much a non-event, there has been spontaneous laughter here and there, but mainly things are as normal, just with a sort of loosening around the idea of self. That is, the self believes in self still, but it is seen now as an illusion believing in an illusion. There is the thought, perhaps this experience will deepen? But that too, is okay, its just seen for what it is, spontaneous thought :-)

Sorry, got a bit sidetracked. It was definitely the questioning that if there wasn't ever a self, what was 'I' hoping to get?

Peace and thanks,
Genevieve :-)

[Ilona]

Beautiful!

How is it feeling today? Is there any doubt at all?
Much love <3