strangechord, come in, let's make some music

[Nemo]

Hey there strangechord :)

What an internal roller coaster today! Huge awakening this morning just like yesterday morning and then a "coming down" and de-intensifying in the afternoon with huge tiredness and some dizziness present. Is this common?

Yeah there are often reports of that sort of thing. There can be significant energetic effects on mind, body, emotion - understandably! There is no standard process though, each experience is totally unique, and each one valid.

The states go up and down, but there is an underlying assuredness that all is well and there is nothing that can be lost, even after blissful states have passed.

Ah, wonderful! Perceptual shift is happening... paradigms are falling away.

It's starting to seem that rather than one certain click, there is a two steps forward, one step back kinda feel to all this. Does that all make sense?

Most definitely. My own click, or moment of realisation, seemed to sort of stretch out over 2-3 weeks. I just pictured trying to snap your fingers once over a span of 2 weeks...haha! Anyway, it didn't actually feel like a click. More like pieces falling away.
I can't even be completely certain that all the pieces could all ever truly be gone, even when it seems like they are. Even if things feel done, or are in fact done, I am really, really happy and relieved about the fact that I am unable to subscribe to the belief that I am, or could ever be. Seeking feels done, but things are still being learned and unlearned as I fall deeper down the rabbit hole each day. And it seems highly unlikely there's a bottom to hit. Once there is surrender to the falling there is no need to actively try and "fall" anymore.

If the 'I' identity is only found in thoughts and thoughts just appear spontaneously, there really is no 'I' at all outside being a thought about ownership that is believed. What is owned, willed and claimed is simply a spontaneous appearance.

Brilliant!

THIS is bliss. We are here to enjoy. All there is is this. Laughing – it’s hilarious that there was ever believed to be any control! It is so wonderful that there is no control – 'I' have no control over anything!

There's a Zen saying, "All that's left is laughter." (Actually, if you search for that in youtube you'll find a really great example from Jeff Foster.) A sense of humour is vital :)

There’s no fear of not abiding, because there’s just this. This is always here. The fear of not abiding is just believing thoughts about the I having any control over anything.

Yup. You're on Fire! So perfectly simple isn't it?
"True nature" or Truth is the simplest thing there is. Only it gets lost under piles of crap that gets heaped on to it - and confusion happens. All we're doing is letting stuff go, dropping it, clearing the way. Wiping the sleep from the eyes.

With no-self, there's no urge to try and control anything. Everything just kinda flows. There is a deep peace and assuredness that everything that occurs and is experienced is apt and fine. There is the recognition that any attempt to control or get bent out of shape about anything is pointless and just adds instant suffering. Life is going to unfold as it unfolds whether the overlay of control is added or not. And life is far more enjoyable and effortless without it(...)

Absolute poetry.

the best analogy I can think of is that the fire has been started and now needs to be stoked and tended so that the blaze can burn ever brighter and hotter. Hmm, now that I write that, I see that that's assuming the fire could go out if not tended to, which implies that this seeing can be lost again. *sigh* I don't know. Feeling really tired.

Who or what is responsible for stoking the fire? Who is really in control here, an illusory "I", or the fire itself? These words were used - Assuming. Implies. Is this describing what is happening in reality right now, or is it just thoughts projected into the future? What is happening right now, that isn't just a thought?

The body/mind knew how to do the work that had to get done and just did it.

Has this always been the case? What is the main difference between before seeing this, and now?

There's still a pining for an all-is-one, world breaking down in a crazy, ecstatic way kind of experience that will bring finality, certainty, etc. But isn't it probably perfect that that is not what's occurring? It allows me to see that that kind of experience is what the mind wants.

Wow, it is so thrilling to see expectations and beliefs just melt away like this. A marvellous inquiry into the simple reality of self in every day life too. Interactions are a great place to look.
You are looking right at this.
Hold your gaze steady and give me some really simple descriptions. What are you referring to when you say "I"?

[strangechord]

Good morning, Nemo.

What a roller coaster these past few days! Yesterday morning was pure seeing, no-self, lots of clarity and peace. Then, wham! After lunch there arose huge fear around non-abiding, around being sucked back into the "I" belief and having to go back to seeking snd feeling more hopeless than before. Huge fear and panic. I sought out help on the LU Facebook group and ultimately, Ilona and I messages back and forth through it. I was at my desk at work, so every so often I had to take a bathroom break and cry. Lol. It was just so present snd consuming, the fear and then sadness. After my chat with Ilona and welcoming and sitting with the emotions, there was a lot of weariness and tiredness. Ended up sleeping almost 12 hours last night.

The past few morning, the "I" comes roaring back. My dreams last night were intense with I identificstion and This morning, I lay awake in bed for a while totally feeling back in I identification and yet seeing that I was, if that makes sense. I kept reminding myself all about no-self, no control, everything happening spontaneously, etc to try to shake off the I belief and return to okayness and no-self. Then I would see all this effort in the mind and let it all go and rest in presence. Back and forth, back and forth for a while.

So this is my experience, that this is a process and two steps forward, one step back. It seems the I belief appears very strongly in the morning and that it takes great intent, vigilance and effort to let it go again. There's just so much wobbliness and clumsiness about this whole thing!

Now there's a question: What would happen if I didn't "effort" in the morning? Would the letting go happen at Somme point during the day spontaneously? I see that i've been operating under the assumption that this has to be done each morning. Any guidance here?

What is different from, say, a week ago, is that no-self is really seen and how that shows up in daily life is a letting go of 95% of the controlling behavior I used to do of myself and others. The impulse to control or judge someone will arise suddenly, familiarly, and it's countered with an immediate awareness that it's not true. An small example: my husband used the last of the sugar in the bowl on his coffee and told me to refill the bowl with the big bag of sugar if I wanted some for my coffee. Immediately and reactively, I wanted to say, "why can't you do it?!" and there was the judgment/old story of him being lazy. Very quickly, it was seen that there was no "him" to be lazy, that that was just a story and that also that was happening was that I needed to fillnthe sugar bowl. So I said nothing snd it was fine. This sort of seeing is happening regularly.

There's less attachment around things needing to look and feel a certain way. Most seeking energy had gone, although there is still some energy around wanting to know how to more gracefully navigate all of this, so I'm listening to a lot of "post-awakening" talks by Adya, Scott Kiloby, etc. I have a phone session with Scott Kiloby scheduled for next weekend.

All this "stoking" is thoughts projected into future, like you hinted. What's happening is that the mind is going nuts and throwing up allsorts of frenzied thought activity. When all of this mental activity Is let be and attention is returned to present awareness, there is no problem.

Will there come a time when I am unable to subscribe to the belief in "I"?

To answer your final question, what I am referring to when I say "I" is what's going on with this mind-body organism. It's a language shortcut. Although if I'm totally honest, there is still the sense of I in the mind.

[Nemo]

Hello strangechord!
Apologies for the delay my dear, I hope things are going well.
Great post. Roller-coasters are wonderful aren't they? :)

It might seem, at the moment, like no-self is something you need to keep reminding yourself about. And if you feel inclined to do so, and it's helping, cool, do it. Although no-self is something that cannot be forgotten or unseen, I completely relate to and understand the initial urge to deepen awareness of it in this manner. It's a bit like discovering a new muscle you never knew existed, and now you want to flex and strengthen it, yeah? Speaking from my experience it's something that does becomes more "abiding" over time. (Also, don't worry too much about what might or will happen.)
This is something that helped me: try to get a feel for the space around and in between thoughts. It's where self was previously considered to be, that's now known to be empty. The void. Expand into it, get a feel for it. And remember, reality is reality, and doesn't need constant awareness of it of it to remain that way. So if there isn't a constant awareness moment to moment, it doesn't matter. No need to worry or strain. Be gentle with yourself, with experience. Truth can never be absent from direct experience. Okay?

Now there's a question: What would happen if I didn't "effort" in the morning? Would the letting go happen at Somme point during the day spontaneously? I see that i've been operating under the assumption that this has to be done each morning. Any guidance here?

Well, the above all goes for that as well. But maybe if you can also try this: Don't.
See if you can make a conscious effort not to "effort" :) see what happens. Try this as an experiment and report back with your findings; give me your answers to the above questions. I am actually quite excited and curious to find out what you come up with!

All this "stoking" is thoughts projected into future, like you hinted. What's happening is that the mind is going nuts and throwing up allsorts of frenzied thought activity. When all of this mental activity Is let be and attention is returned to present awareness, there is no problem.

Will there come a time when I am unable to subscribe to the belief in "I"?

Heheh - is that another thought projected into the future?
I cannot answer that for you I'm afraid. Why do you ask? Would it matter?
Are you subscribing to that belief right now?

To answer your final question, what I am referring to when I say "I" is what's going on with this mind-body organism. It's a language shortcut. Although if I'm totally honest, there is still the sense of I in the mind.

Yes, wonderful. Can you explore this a little more, elaborate?
Where did self come from to start with, and what is it's purpose, it's function?
Mind still has a sense of I, you said. So, these identification thoughts exist. Mind thinks it is a thought. Is this true? Can a thought think? Is "the sense of I in the mind" really you?

[strangechord]

Hi Nemo,

Much of the previous post's anxiety has left. At the end of last week, there was clear seeing of no-self and it was accompanied by a feeling of lightness in the head and body, deep peace and fulfillment with every moment, and some bubbling-up bliss occasionally. Friday a lot of emotion and mental anxiety started coming up and it didn't really stop all weekend. At times, there was heavy identification with thought and "I" and suffering over having "lost" being awake.

Yesterday (Sunday), I read two chapters from Adyashanti's "The End of Your World" about the whole "I got it, I lost it" thought phenomenon and that helped greatly. There was a recognition that last week marked the end of believing I was a separate self, the end of seeking to find who I really was, and the end of belief in self-improvement as the road to happiness. However, this is definitely the beginning of a different life. A life lived with the recognition of my true nature, but also full of the question of how to live from this rather than the old, conditioned, separate, ego-filled sense of self. Hope that makes sense.

So I don't know how to "label" what's happened here over the last week or so. Am I liberated? In a sense, yes. But I can't say I am living from that all the time. In light of the clear seeing that who I thought I was is just a thought, there is certainly a new recognition of all the myriad thoughts throughout the day that are "unawake". And that's where the focus is now; in seeing all of that and the willingness to be honest and open about all of the ways identification still shows up.

There's no more mental effort to will myself back to the state I was in last week. There is the pausing through the day, though, to rest in awareness and consciously let go of following thoughts. The less allegiance to the mind, the more at peace!! Today was pretty effortless, just living life and noticing little identification thoughts happen here and there. No bliss or giggles or anything, but I see now that to be attached to that is to set myself up for anxiety when it's not there.

When I wrote that there's still the sense of "I" in the mind... Let's see... there is only "I" when "I" is thought of. Otherwise, it is not there. There is seeing that it is only a construct of the mind.

[Nemo]

Hello!

Wonderful! So happy to hear it. Music to my ears.

Am I liberated? In a sense, yes. But I can't say I am living from that all the time.

It's okay, it actually IS what is being lived all the time, it can't be any other way. You're just concerned because you're not looking directly at it all the time. The sun doesn't have to be looked at directly all the time for light and warmth to be present and evident. Trust in the truth :)

Let's see... there is only "I" when "I" is thought of. Otherwise, it is not there. There is seeing that it is only a construct of the mind.

Amazing, isn't it?

You don't seem to have any more doubts about seeing this, and that's really great.
A good way to have this really deepen, and sink in, is to look at this quite closely for just a few minutes and really examine it thoroughly. Then you can really be certain there is no more doubt. There's an old saying, "know thine enemy". Self isn't really the enemy, but you get the gist.
So if you can give me one last long rant, that would be really great, the hard work can be over. Just focus solely on looking at and talking about the nature of self. Let's go back to those questions:
Where did self come from to start with?
What is it's purpose, it's function?
Do you exist in any way, shape, or form?

[strangechord]

You don't seem to have any more doubts about seeing this, and that's really great.
A good way to have this really deepen, and sink in, is to look at this quite closely for just a few minutes and really examine it thoroughly. Then you can really be certain there is no more doubt. There's an old saying, "know thine enemy". Self isn't really the enemy, but you get the gist.
So if you can give me one last long rant, that would be really great, the hard work can be over. Just focus solely on looking at and talking about the nature of self. Let's go back to those questions:
Where did self come from to start with?
What is it's purpose, it's function?
Do you exist in any way, shape, or form?

Self comes from a thought. A thought that is believed. Identification with self is strengthened through repeated investment in "I" thoughts.

The purpose of self is to perpetuate the illusion of separation. "I" believes it's an island looking out at others and the world. "I" is the illusion of ownership of reality through the constant thought stream of commentary on what is. The self's function is to be absorbed in its own dreamscape.

I do not exist as a separate "I". There is existence of this body, thoughts appear, doing is done in daily life, and there are sense perceptions. However, there is no "I" that owns these things. There is no controller; there is no author. To believe there is a controller is to suffer.

All is well!

[Nemo]

Emily :)
Welcome home.