Wanting to experientially 'realise' no self

[i2025]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand no 'self' to mean that there's no entity separate from reality at large that moves through space/time and knows/is conscious of/is aware of what's happening. The illusion of 'self' is a feeling like a continuous, independent centre that moves through space/time and collects experiences - creating a life story/understanding of the world

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for someone to help me break down my current concepts and beliefs which are blocking me from seeing the 'truth' of no self. I feel like I have a fairly good conceptual understanding of no self/non-duality, however there seems to be various subconscious or 'unconscious' beliefs and concepts I have that are so ingrained, it's difficult to 'see through' them during self-enquiry. There's a feeling of almost 'getting it' but at the same time feeling like this feeling itself is what's blocking my from actual 'realisation' - it feels like an endless cycle that's very difficult to 'get out' of. My main goal is to turn my conceptual understanding of no-self into an experiential realisation.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping to speak with a guide that can relate to where I am on the 'path' and give me pointers (based on my current experiences/understanding) on what beliefs or concepts I should self-enquire further into, and how I can drop them. I'm really just looking for some guidance from someone who has been through this 'process' themselves and can really empathise with the journey of the seeker. I know that there's no specific 'knowledge' or 'path' that can be taught but I am hoping to understand a bit more about what is truly holding me back from the experiential recognition of no self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I didn't become a seeker until well into my adult life and initially looked towards meditation as a means of reducing the amount of stress and suffering in my life (after I encountered some difficulties in life). It was only after I started a daily meditation practice that I realised that I had never actually even questioned or looked into the nature of my consciousness/experience, and that there was an entire 'world' which I had never questioned or explored. I was using the Waking Up app and reaped the benefits of learning mindfulness and how I could practically apply this to my day to day life (eg. how to better manage emotions, how to fall asleep easier). I was also interested in the self-enquiry/no self/non-duality part of it too but I kind of saw it as a lofty goal that looking back, I thought only people who dedicated their lives to meditation/self-enquiry could realise. After meditating for around a year, I mostly fell back into my previous habits and my meditation practice became sporadic. I still retained some of the benefits of learning mindfulness but I became disinterested in deepening my realisations as it felt 'impossible' to do so. During this time I dabbled with psychedelics and had some profound experiences and glimpses of 'no self' and true non-duality, however these experiences I've learned never last and I usually only end up with a fond memory of what occurred. I will say they were useful for opening my eyes into what is possible and making my 'belief' that there was truth in being able to wake up, but of course I still retain latent doubts about whether this is possible for myself. Just recently, over the last month or so I've really started looking into no self more seriously - in particular, I really related to the message from neo advaita - in particular Jim Newman. There was just something he was saying that really resonated with me even though I couldn't truly 'understand' a lot of what he was saying. Through further self-enquiry and research I've come to have a fairly good conceptual understanding of the 'teachings' and this has been helped by my recent discovery of Angelo Dilullo's youtube channel. I've had some further 'glimpses' since then which have become a lot more frequent compared to my previous experience and it really feels like I'm getting somewhere or even 'close' to realisation, but it just seems to elude me at the 'final moment'. I will say that my recent experiences have given me a renewed sense that it is possible, even for me, and I do really believe that self is an illusion and that it can be seen through, although some residual doubts do pop up every now and then. I'm hoping to remove these doubts and blockages for good so that I can 'see' what was there in front of me all the time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

It sounds like you have already seen that there is no self, but are disappointed because it wasn't permanent. It won't be.

We compare it to finding out there is no Santa Claus. The man may put the red suit back on, but you are not fooled. You know now. Watch these videos and then read the introductory materials here, OK?

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?



It might be good to see Pernille's YouTube videos on Doubt, which is the 2nd Fetter in the 10 Fetter model:

https://youtu.be/a_8N331jpA4?si=wHE8KmhO7n9uwLPp

Throughout this, we ask you to LOOK with your eyes and ignore the content of thought. We'll look at that more shortly.

Much love,

[i2025]

Hi Stacy,

I believe the above user has jumped into our thread by mistake. I will watch the 2 videos you linked and get back to you soon.

[i2025]

How will life change?

Impossible to predict at this moment - but hopefully more peace in daily life.

How will you change?

Less seeking for a better experience and less resistance to daily life.

What will be different?

Things that happen will seem more impersonal; I should be less reactive in general

What is missing?

I'm still in the early stage of integration so there are still a lot of beliefs, body conditionings and habits which are still active on a regular basis.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

My time zone is Australian Eastern Standard Time - I would be open for a call, but perhaps after we have talked for a bit on these forums first.

I will also note that since I posted my initial post (almost 3 week ago), there has been quite a few dramatic shifts for me:

-I clearly saw through the illusion of all thoughts and recognise that it's impossible for the self to exist or to have ever existed
-I recognised that lack of subject/object separation, and that even perception itself is just another description
-I recognised that there is no actual 'seeker' or 'teacher', and no such thing as 'awakening' or 'enlightenment' - all there is is what can't be said
-I recognised that there are still quite a lot of egoic habits occurring, and some doubt as well for sure. These are usually recognised in retrospect but are especially strong in relation to control, time/space and absolute no separation/unity. Many thoughts will arise that make me doubt these sometimes, not that they are a problem, but they are just not clearly seen through as such its harder to just ignore them
-I realised that this is probably going to be a long unfolding where a lot of conditioning and beliefs will be challenged and need to be inspected. I seem to be on a bit of a rollercoaster at the moment, in that I'll have a day or two of clarity and equanimity, followed by days of strong doubt and negative habits/behaviours occurring again (almost like I'm fully 'asleep' on these days, especially when something negative triggers me on that day).

Hope that helps and gives you a sense of where I'm at at the moment :)

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

You are right. That person is in the wrong thread. I have told the admins and they will help take care of it

[Anastacia42]

I2025,

-I clearly saw through the illusion of all thoughts and recognise that it's impossible for the self to exist or to have ever existed

From what you have written it sounds like you have experienced a shift in perception that we are looking for here.

You are correct that there can be a lot of sorting out to do.

We usually offer a series of checkpoint questions when someone has this shift in perception. Would you like to answer those?

Then I can point you to some support teleconferences and our group on Facebook.

Loving

[i2025]

Hi Stacy,

Sure I’m happy to answer the checkpoint questions.

[Anastacia42]

Great.

Other guides will look at these & may have questions.

Please use the quote function for each question separately and answer underneath. (see my first post, at the bottom for instructions if needed. )

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Loving,

[i2025]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate self/me/I and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I believe the illusion begins in very early childhood, when the mind starts taking ownership for appearances that arise - eg. my body, my thoughts, my actions. From there a sense of being a separate entity located within the body builds throughout one's childhood into adulthood. I believe the separate self is primarily created through thoughts, which through memory and concepts create the illusion of space and time (including cause and effect), as well as the illusion of free will and control. Thoughts continuously arise taking ownership of everything that occurs as 'happening to me'; many thoughts either reflect on the past or ideate about the future to create a sense of a timeline where a person's life story unfolds. The mind is also conditioned to immediately associate any visual appearances of the body as 'my body' and sensations within the body are conceptually map to give rise to the feeling of really inhabiting a 3D physical body. Sounds are then seen as external to me but detected by 'my ears'.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There's a real sense of freedom and clarity that I had never experienced in the past (aside from a few brief moments during previous 'glimpses'). It's clearly seen that there is no self and never was - which was a great relief. It was also seen that there was never any control, and that space/time are also creations of the mind. Another key recognition that I had was that there is no separation between subject/object, and that even considering it as 'perception' was illusory.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

A really sincere examination of my thoughts while I was walking outside - suddenly it just became obvious that every single thought that I ever had has no inherent reality or truth to them (all words are made up and they were just thoughts appearing out of nothing, without a separate thinker). From this it was seen that the sense of self is essentially built entirely around an ongoing chain of thoughts which all refer to one another other to build a really convincing story of a 'me'. The personal identity/ego, including all beliefs are made from thoughts and as such, this identity could not possibly be real.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I actually had one specific recognition relating directly to this. When I at work one day and drinking a cup of coffee, it suddenly became obvious that all that was occurring was an intention to pick up the cup would arise, and then my arm/hand would reach out, pick up the cup and then I would drink the coffee. The mind would then add a bunch of concepts/thoughts into this - turning the story into 'I decided I wanted to drink some coffee, so I used my arm/hand to pick up the coffee and raise the cup my mouth to drink it' - the concept of time and cause/effect is also added on as an additional conceptual layer. In reality - all that happen was an intention to drink coffee arised out of of nothing for no reason, then the arm/hand moved to pick up the cup and the coffee was drank. It's completely impersonal but the illusion of control, cause and effect and free will/choice is indeed very convincing - like a great magic trick.

6) Anything to add?

I'm still early into my integration phase (2 weeks) and it's recognised that this will be a very unpredictable and non-linear process, which may take quite a bit of time. Egoic tendencies, conditioned habits and being lost in the illusion does still occasionally however it's recognised in retrospect and see not as a problem but as part of a process. As there isn't really any teachers or seekers, and there's no final destination or 'final realisation' to reach - the unfolding now is just seen as an endless integration phase where all residual beliefs, habits, and egoic tendencies, both conscious and unconscious will need to surface in order for them to be seen, accepted, and reflected on before they are dissolved.

[Anastacia42]

That all sounds very clear. I will share your answers with other guides who may have questions,

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Good morning

No one had any questions. The conversation here is complete.

If you'd like, you can go on to discussion groups here & elsewhere. You might want to look into the 10 Fetters work. There's a lot out there these days.

Todd & Pernille Lent Damore have YouTube recordings & live groups.

Vince Shubert hold weakly groups.

Perfectly Okay has many meetings you can attend.

Those are hust a few.

I think you can find them pretty easily.

Welcome!