Imyself

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vinceschubert
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Imyself

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:00 am

Hi Robert, first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, satsang etc.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, which i want you not only to attempt to answer them for me, but to communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too http://www.liberationunleashed.com. Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Agreed ?

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor, with the cursor ready for you to type your response.
Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:02 pm

Hi Vince,
Thank you for taking me on. I've reviewed the disclaimer and the intro material and I'm happy to agree to the conditions for working together.
I'm working on the rant now and will post it as soon as it's ready.
Thank you

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:56 pm

Hi Vince,

First off I'm hoping and expecting to see through the illusion of self. I accepted the probability that self was a construct and not a separate entity months ago, especially after viewing the BBC "Secret Self" video.
Since then I have become more and more convinced that it's true. And my day to day experience of things has changed in a subtle way.
I want to know if I've really seen through the illusion, and I want to live more fully from that perspective.
A couple of months ago I worked the questions in Ilona's "Start Here" post. I also read the "Expectations" post and listed my expectations. Since then I've largely dropped those expectations and I'm more focused on seeing whatever truth comes through this change in perspective.
I must say that I do hope for more peace and happiness, and I still expect that it is likely to happen as settling into awareness of life without a separate self progresses.

I just went through my list of expectations and wants from 2 months ago and I realize that much of what I wrote is still compelling for me, although I've learned that these expectations are not useful for gate crossing.
Here's the old list:
Peaceful, secure, serene, joyful, confident, outgoing, wise, energetic, creative, able to see 'one-ness', loving. No frustration, no out-of-control or inappropriate anger. Warm. Smiling. Honest and considerate, caring, loving, contagious joy and charisma. Absence of fear. "Practically perfect in every way". I don't want it to be like normal frustrations and the opposite of all the other stuff that I just wrote. I don't want things to get worse, maybe because I wouldn't be able to hide from painful, frightening, frustrating reality, at the times when reality is that way. I want to have the answers. I want to be or have the cure for others. I want or expect to feel loved and loving. More successful. Motivated.
I want to be like Dudley (Cary Grant) in the movie "The Bishop's Wife".
Later I wrote:
I'm expecting some kind of change a feeling or maybe a change in thinking. Loss of the sense of me, self. No more self referencing thoughts/language. That I feel confident to handle all situations that come my way with ease. That I will always feel comfortable and peaceful. That I "should" feel this way. That I will know for sure that I crossed the gate. That there will be no doubt about 'no Self'.

Sorry this post was so long, but by rewriting it I've been able to see how much of it I'm still holding on to. I'm also pleased to see that much of it has been released and/or is not so strongly held.

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:05 am

Hi Vince,
Just checking in for the day. We have lots of family visiting, which is unusual but fun. The nieces and nephews are now grown but they are talking about the fun we had when they were kids.
Hope you're having/had a good day too.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Imyself

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:50 pm

Morning Robert. Thanks for checking in.
First off I'm hoping and expecting to...
Ok, first thing. Check the body for sensations related to hoping and expecting. Can you feel a sense of anticipation ? (i know that the specifics are hard to describe with actual accuracy- so just general impressions for the moment)
So the sensations are real, but they are a response to a story. Right ? This real experience happened as a result of the content of a particular thought stream. Right ?
I have become more and more convinced that it's true.
What it seems that you are saying is that you now have one thought stream agreeing with another one ?
Mind (thoughts) does seem to have an obsession with ordering and categorizing itself. It seems to seek the satisfaction of agreeing with itself. Does this ring true for you ?
I'm more focused on seeing whatever truth comes through this change in perspective.
Is this the mind wanting to apply meaning (called truth) to experience ?
If it is a change of perspective that is occurring, then what is being perceived isn't different, just the angle that it it seen from ? Right ?
So is it possible to remove the see-er and still have a seen ?
Where does the seen finish and the see-er start ?
Where does seeing actually happen ?
Sorry this post was so long,
No worries. Long is good.
i might not attend to every point that pops up in your posts immediately but they will get attended to if required.

love

vince

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:19 am

Hi Vince,
I'm working on the responses to your last post.
Thanks

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:24 am

Morning Robert. Thanks for checking in.
First off I'm hoping and expecting to...
Ok, first thing. Check the body for sensations related to hoping and expecting. Can you feel a sense of anticipation ? (i know that the specifics are hard to describe with actual accuracy- so just general impressions for the moment)
So the sensations are real, but they are a response to a story. Right ? This real experience happened as a result of the content of a particular thought stream. Right ?
I have become more and more convinced that it's true.
What it seems that you are saying is that you now have one thought stream agreeing with another one ?
Mind (thoughts) does seem to have an obsession with ordering and categorizing itself. It seems to seek the satisfaction of agreeing with itself. Does this ring true for you ?
I'm more focused on seeing whatever truth comes through this change in perspective.
Is this the mind wanting to apply meaning (called truth) to experience ?
If it is a change of perspective that is occurring, then what is being perceived isn't different, just the angle that it it seen from ? Right ?
So is it possible to remove the see-er and still have a seen ?
Where does the seen finish and the see-er start ?
Where does seeing actually happen ?
Sorry this post was so long,
No worries. Long is good.
i might not attend to every point that pops up in your posts immediately but they will get attended to if required.

love

vince

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:29 am

Sorry about last post, I'm figuring out this quote thing and I just quoted your whole last post.

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:33 pm

Can you feel a sense of anticipation ?
Yes, sometimes the feeling is very subtle. Now I'm noticing the sensations towards the front of my body particularly in my stomach chest and throat areas.
So the sensations are real, but they are a response to a story. Right ? This real experience happened as a result of the content of a particular thought stream. Right ?
I feel a real sensation in response to a story; a real thought stream, the contents of which are just imagined.
What it seems that you are saying is that you now have one thought stream agreeing with another one ?
Mind (thoughts) does seem to have an obsession with ordering and categorizing itself. It seems to seek the satisfaction of agreeing with itself. Does this ring true for you ?
I'm not sure what you mean by one thought stream agreeing with another. Do you mean my thought stream that is my self not being in conflict with my thought stream of "acceptance that self is a construct"?

I agree that mind is obsessed with ordering and categorizing, it does feel good to agree with myself, my thoughts. But I'm open to seeing where my thoughts are not accurate and to question my beliefs. When an old belief is challenged sometimes it's uncomfortable but sometimes it feels good. This investigation so far has been interesting, even exciting. It's discovery. But I haven't really had to struggle with letting go of a cherished belief so far. It seems that I've been open, willing, even eager to "get" this.
Is this the mind wanting to apply meaning (called truth) to experience ?
Yes. Leaving the word truth out of what I wrote would read, "I'm more focused on seeing whatever comes through this change in perspective." But I still feel the desire and drive for experience to have meaning.
If it is a change of perspective that is occurring, then what is being perceived isn't different, just the angle that it it seen from ? Right ?
Yes, same object of perception, different point of view. But the perceived may look very different.
So is it possible to remove the see-er and still have a seen ?
Where does the seen finish and the see-er start ?
Where does seeing actually happen ?
In front of me is a stool. If I close my eyes the stool remains. If I go away it still remains. But my aware experience (seeing) as the seer of the stool (the seen) happens entirely in my thoughts.
There is no separation between seer and seen; one implies the other.

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Re: Imyself

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:09 pm

'morning Robert.
I'm not sure what you mean by one thought stream agreeing with another.
i mean that when you say something is true, what is happening is a thought stream that says something, then there is other thoughts that say "yes, that is true, because..." The only difference between the true and untrue statement is the thought stream that says it is true. (and the response to that.)
Is there any such thing as an objective truth ?
This investigation so far has been interesting, even exciting. It's discovery. But I haven't really had to struggle with letting go of a cherished belief so far. It seems that I've been open, willing, even eager to "get" this.
Yes, it seems that you are primed and ready. Most of the work already done.
Yes, same object of perception, different point of view. But the perceived may look very different.
..and we respond to it differently too.
But I still feel the desire and drive for experience to have meaning.
Yes, this is an established neuronal pathway. Can you live with that being frustrated until that pathway atrophies and a new more appropriate one is established ?
In front of me is a stool. If I close my eyes the stool remains.
No it doesn't. What remains is a visual memory perhaps. There is also the thought deduction that logically, with no evidence of it being moved, that it would still be there, but once your eyes are closed it ceases to exist for that organism in direct experience.
Now it is a useful story to imagine it is still there, and useful stories have their place. Just don't take them to be other than thoughts about something.
There is no separation between seer and seen; one implies the other.
It appears that you arrived at this conclusion via deduction (again).
Do this exercise again, this time use sound. Take a chair over to where the refrigerator is and sit listening to the sound of it. (open the door for a while if it is not emitting a sound)
As you listen, watch thoughts labeling, then ask yourself where the sound is coming from. Experience how you know this.
Then recognize that sound only becomes sound when everything aligns in the brain, and that is where the sound comes into existence. See if you can experience the sound in the head and how thoughts keep projecting it to the assumed source.
Now this is the big one; As hearing happens.. No, as Sounding happens, notice that there is NOTHING else.
You become the sound. The sound IS you. Only when thoughts about it occur, does separation apparently happen again.

love

vince

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:54 am

Hi Vince,
I'm working on the response to the last post. I'm just checking for the day. Thanks.

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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:48 am

Hi Vince,
Is there any such thing as an objective truth ?
I gave this a little bit of thought and the short answer as I see it now is that from my subjective point of view I could not possibly claim objective truth. I would need to know everything about the subject (and perhaps everything about everything) to actually be objective. So then, what am I looking for if not what is true?
Imyself wrote:
But I still feel the desire and drive for experience to have meaning.
Yes, this is an established neuronal pathway. Can you live with that being frustrated until that pathway atrophies and a new more appropriate one is established ?
Yes, like changing a bad habit. I can see that experiences can be satisfying (or not) without having any obvious meaning.

Do this exercise again, this time use sound. Take a chair over to where the refrigerator is and sit listening to the sound of it.
As you listen, watch thoughts labeling, then ask yourself where the sound is coming from. Experience how you know this.
Then recognize that sound only becomes sound when everything aligns in the brain, and that is where the sound comes into existence. See if you can experience the sound in the head and how thoughts keep projecting it to the assumed source.
Now this is the big one; As hearing happens.. No, as Sounding happens, notice that there is NOTHING else.
You become the sound. The sound IS you. Only when thoughts about it occur, does separation apparently happen again.

I'm hearing sound that seems to be coming from outside and away from me.
I hear and feel the sound in my head. But in my "minds eye" the sound is away from me, in the direction of the refrigerator.
I'm having a hard time experiencing that "you become the sound." I think I understand what you are talking about and I've been working with this for two days but I'm not yet experiencing it this way in awareness.
What I'm experiencing is the sound of the refrigerator, and a variety of other sounds, my thoughts about this experiment and a variety of other thoughts as my mind begins to wander, and various sensations in the body.
I really want to get this. Is it anything like what Douglas Harding describes as being room in spacious awareness for whatever is being observed?

Thanks

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Re: Imyself

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:25 pm

So then, what am I looking for if not what is true?
Could it be that you are seeking for something that a story says is missing ?
For this to be the case there has to be a story that is not seen as a story. That is, that firstly there is belief that it is not a story but something called a 'Truth'.
There will be expectations about these 'Truths', and there will be emotional responses to the perceived success or failure of meeting them.
What do you find when you look in this area ?
I'm hearing sound that seems to be coming from outside and away from me.
I hear and feel the sound in my head. But in my "minds eye" the sound is away from me, in the direction of the refrigerator.
I'm having a hard time experiencing that "you become the sound." I think I understand what you are talking about and I've been working with this for two days but I'm not yet experiencing it this way in awareness.
What I'm experiencing is the sound of the refrigerator, and a variety of other sounds, my thoughts about this experiment and a variety of other thoughts as my mind begins to wander, and various sensations in the body.
I really want to get this.
Ok, just relax. You are not looking for anything new here. At first you are looking for the split second when there are no thoughts. That is no thought commentary on the process or description of what is noticed. When thoughts arrive to describe what is noticed, it is in the past already. But there will be memory of that moment in time when there was only sound-ing.

love

vince

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Imyself
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Re: Imyself

Postby Imyself » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:46 pm

Could it be that you are seeking for something that a story says is missing ?
-Yes, a story that there is some bit of information that I need to get. Or maybe something I'm overlooking or just can't see yet.
For this to be the case there has to be a story that is not seen as a story. That is, that firstly there is belief that it is not a story but something called a 'Truth'.
There will be expectations about these 'Truths', and there will be emotional responses to the perceived success or failure of meeting them.
What do you find when you look in this area ?
- -Expectations:
- that there is something "true" that I don't see yet or don't know yet.
- that it is "the Answer" to understanding how life IS, how we "should" relate to one another and the rest of "creation".
- that "truth" would make it obvious why so many people are screwed up and how they can and should change.
- I have the expectation that "truth" would show me how to disconnect from the craziness of the world so .that I could abide in some more "true" and peaceful awareness.
- I expect I would join all those who "get it", who have found the "answer".

- okay, so my idea of what truth is may have changed a bit in the last six months or so, but it's clear that I am still holding onto the idea that there is such a thing. And these expectations may be interfering with goal of seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

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Re: Imyself

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:09 pm

'Morning Robert.
- -Expectations:
- that there is something "true" that I don't see yet or don't know yet.
- that it is "the Answer" to understanding how life IS, how we "should" relate to one another and the rest of "creation".
- that "truth" would make it obvious why so many people are screwed up and how they can and should change.
- I have the expectation that "truth" would show me how to disconnect from the craziness of the world so .that I could abide in some more "true" and peaceful awareness.
- I expect I would join all those who "get it", who have found the "answer".
Would you say that this describes a seeker ?
When one becomes a seeker, that is identifies as a seeker, then what happens when the sought after is found ?
One is no longer a seeker. Right ?
So seekers have a vested interest in NOT finding what they say that they are looking for.
Are you prepared to give up being a seeker ?
What would happen if nobody, including your self, knew that you were a spiritual person ?
Is looking but not finding, is that suffering ? Is unfulfilled desire suffering ?
What is the mechanism, the process that occurs with expectations ?
Is is possible to control the outcome of expectations ?
Are expectations more than story ? (a thought stream)
Is it possible to see a story unfolding, and know it as a story, yet let it take its' course ?

Remember to do the 'sound-ing' experiment...

love

vince


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