I would like a guide please.

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dian
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I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:03 am

Hi, My name is Dianne and I have read so many books on enlightenment and gained so much information from John Sherman's website and Fred Davis's website. It all seems understood but out of my reach. I am not a fast learner but a very willing one although I admit to feeling a sense of fear that I may never get this.

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Canfora
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby Canfora » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:13 am

Hi Dianne and welcome to LU.

I can be your guide if that's OK with you.

Did you read our disclaimer and FAQ's page? They are good resources to understand what we are doing here:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/faq.php

The "goal" here is not to learn or add beliefs to your pile of beliefs but to see what's real in experience.

This is what I would like you to do because it will help you in this path:

1. Stop reading books and websites during the course of our talk, they only keep you stuck in second hand beliefs. Reading the Gateless Gatecrashers book is OK: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf
2. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
3. Answer from personal experience only.

Is this OK with you?

If it is can you please tell me what are your expectations?
How will this feel?
How will this change you?


Sandra

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dian
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:35 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thankyou for agreeing to be my guide. I have read the disclaimer. I will not read any books except the Gateless Gatecrashers book which I am reading at the moment. I will stay off nonduality websites. I will post at least once a day or let you know if I am unable to or have to spend more time considering a question. I will answer from personal experience only.

My expectations are to live in the present without getting caught up in thoughts of past and future. For life to just happen seamlessly without Dianne's judgements interfering.
This will feel like seeing things without commentary. Just looking without wondering how Dianne is effected by what is seen, heard or felt.
I would expect to be changed by letting what happens, happen and not think that everything has to be or can be controlled by Dianne.

Dianne.

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Canfora
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby Canfora » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:59 pm

I have read the disclaimer. I will not read any books except the Gateless Gatecrashers book which I am reading at the moment. I will stay off nonduality websites. I will post at least once a day or let you know if I am unable to or have to spend more time considering a question. I will answer from personal experience only.
Nice, thank you.

Glad to know that you don't seem to have unrealistic expectations! We will come back to expectations when/if necessary.

Are you recieving notifications when I post here?

At this moment, if you drop what you have learned and look with fresh eyes,

what is the I that you think you are?

Where is this I?

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dian
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:30 pm

I just remembered reading where I had to press Subscribe Topic and have done so and will probably receive notifications now.

The "I" I think I am is typing with no thought, no effort just in the moment doing.

Maybe behind Dianne experiencing effortlessly before Dianne engages filters and claims experience.

Dianne

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Canfora
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby Canfora » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:06 pm

Thank you for your answers, Dianne!
The "I" I think I am is typing with no thought, no effort just in the moment doing.
Yes, nice, typing happens. What you're saying here is that you can't see a I doing the action of typing? Just the action?
Maybe behind Dianne experiencing effortlessly before Dianne engages filters and claims experience.
Do you see two Dianne's, one behind and before the other ? One experiencing effortlessly and the other engaging filters and claiming experience?
How does this work?
(Our "work" together will be a lot like this. I will be "mirroring" your words and questioning your beliefs, asking you to look at reality and see if the self exists or not. If you can't find it anywhere... how can it be real?)

If I tell you the I doesn't exist, that there is no you at all in reality, no Dianne living your life, what comes up?
What do you think, how do you feel?
Notice what happens and write about it, please.

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dian
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:51 pm

Hi Sandra,
Not 2 Diannes. When Dianne's head moves around the room seeing happens then Dianne labels hats, paintings, computer. Seems to happen simultaneously, the seeing and the naming but Dianne's head moves without Dianne having to control it.
No Dianne living my life seems strange. Here she is writing to you. But since she doesn't focus to type every letter she cant be the one in control of the movements otherwise she'd have to be in control of all her movements and so much she does is automatic.
I feel like just sitting and doing nothing just to show I have control but my body moves, my legs uncross, my hands move there is no control here. I don't fear the lack of control I just cant feel where movement's coming from.

I hope that makes sense. I should go to bed as its almost midnight. Thankyou Sandra I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Dianne

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Canfora
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby Canfora » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi Dianne,
But since she doesn't focus to type every letter she cant be the one in control of the movements otherwise she'd have to be in control of all her movements and so much she does is automatic.
I feel like just sitting and doing nothing just to show I have control but my body moves, my legs uncross, my hands move there is no control here. I don't fear the lack of control I just cant feel where movement's coming from.
If there is no you, nothing can be personal (happening to a me, a person) and all must happen in "automatic".

If there is no you, then body, thoughts, sensations, don't belong to "you" and are just happening without "you".

Let's see if this is true.

Do you understand what is meant by looking and seeing in the context of LU? If you have doubts you can see this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyNwhK2Ur1c. Looking is very simple, it's looking to what is here as if your trying to find something that you lost, your keys, your cellphone. It's using the senses, what can be percieved "beyond" thought. Looking isn't thinking... (we are going to look at the thought "mechanism" later).

Let's start looking at BODY and see if a you can be found there, in the body and controling the body.

I like your idea of just sitting and doing nothing to see this :)

Try this little exercice: "freeze" completely, don't move, don't sneeze, don't scratch the ocasional itch... (you get the idea) and find the answers to these questions:

Can you find a you inside the body?

Can you see a you controling what is happening with the body?

If you can't see a you, is the body your body? What makes it yours?

Is a you in control of the "freezing" experience or the experience is just... being experienced?


Please take your time LOOKING and answer all the questions.

Sandra

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dian
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:40 pm

Hi Sandra,

Sounds like a storm is coming so I will send these answers and then turn off the computer until it passes.

Looking inside the body I appears to be in my head as if the thought to freeze instructed the body from my head. But to be in control of the freeze would mean that is what I would do but other thoughts just come in to distract so how am I controlling anything. Even if I was in my head thought isn't coming from there.
No, holding on tight to the freeze with all the willpower I have still does nothing - movement happens, breathing happens it's noticed after the fact.
No, I can't see a you. So how can the body belong to anyone. It's not mine. It could only be mine if all actions and thoughts originated from the body but thoughts just come, movement just happens.
The freezing happens but it seems to be Dianne's idea.

Dianne

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dian
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:35 pm

Hi Sandra,
Its 10.30pm here so I am going to bed. I will check the guiding area in the morning. I hope you have a nice day.

regards
Dianne

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Canfora
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby Canfora » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:13 pm

Hi Dianne, we aren't in the same timeline, I'm in Portugal, Europe. It's 15 pm here, as I write these words.
I didn't had access to a PC today morning.
I suppose that means I will write to you at your bedtime or when you're sleeping :)
That's OK, there is no rush in doing this. This way you have time to look during your normal daily activities.
I hope you enjoy this "process", when we really go in to seeing it can be... amazing.

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Canfora
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby Canfora » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:11 pm

Sounds like a storm is coming so I will send these answers and then turn off the computer until it passes.
I hope everything is OK with you!
Looking inside the body I appears to be in my head as if the thought to freeze instructed the body from my head.
You said that it appears the I is in the head.
Look deeper... saying appears implies the existance of doubt.

In this moment if you look to experience, is a you in the head?
Can you touch it, smell it, see it, point to it's exact location...?
Other than a thought and maybe a sensation caused by habit, when you try to see it, is a you there?
But to be in control of the freeze would mean that is what I would do but other thoughts just come in to distract so how am I controlling anything.
Keep looking in your everyday experience. Are you controlling anything? This but not that? Or life is happening without a you controlling it?
No, I can't see a you. So how can the body belong to anyone. It's not mine. It could only be mine if all actions and thoughts originated from the body but thoughts just come, movement just happens.
Yes, thoughts happen in experience, movement happens in experience and body also happens in experience. Can you find anything that isn't being experienced?
The freezing happens but it seems to be Dianne's idea.
Let's see if there really is a Dianne having ideas!

Look at thoughts, please, make these "experiences" and tell me how it goes, one by one:

Can you see where do thoughts come from? Where do they go?

Do you know what your next thought is going to be?

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

Don't think of your right foot!

Think only "happy" thoughts for the next 10 minutes!

And my favorite question: can thoughts think?

Doing this can you find the thinker, a Dianne doing and controlling thoughts, to whom they belong?
If not are thoughts personal?

Sending love, Sandra

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dian
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:11 am

Hi Sandra,
Everything is fine here. I was hoping for some rain but the storm passed by without leaving any. I just always turn off the computer when there's thunder and lightening to protect the computer from surges. I'm in Australia so we are awake at different times but I don't see that as a problem gives me time to answer your questions.

I read your questions early today and once my husband left for work and I dropped my daughter at work I thought I would sit and answer. Then the thought came 'I should do the washing and clean the house first' (definitely didn't come from Dianne). now I'm ready. Here goes.

Definitely couldn't find I in my head. I couldn't touch, smell, see it or point to where it is. There is no me here.

In my everyday experiencing I am not controlling anything. I'm writing this and writings happening. I'm sitting at the computer and body movements are happening. Just scratched under my eye and realized I didn't know I was going to do it until it was happening.

I can find nothing that isn't being experienced. I looked, everything is just happening. Experience is happening and Dianne's experiencing.

Thoughts are very illusive the more I try to look at them the more they evade me. I shut my eyes to experience them better but where did the thought come from to shut my eyes.

Thoughts come and go I don't have any idea where they come from or go to.

I just tried to think of a red apple but that didn't last long and my hand automatically reached for my cup of tea (not sure where that thought came from) I didn't see it coming. Thoughts just come . If it was up to me to decide each thought there would be a lot less of them. Would I have to think now I want to think this thought. (That doesn't make sense).

It's hard to even catch a full thought before it morphs into the next thought let alone stop it in the middle.

Tried not thinking of my right foot and that did not work at all. Thought of my right foot as I was telling myself not to.


10 minutes of happy thoughts didn't work. I tried to think of my children but I couldn't control the thoughts for 1 minute.

Thoughts can't think I am very sure of that.

No I couldn't find a thinker. Dianne's thoughts were all over the place and definitely not controlled by Dianne. They don't belong to anyone. They just appear and disappear. How could they be personal they are just happenings not controlled by Dianne.

Bye for now
Dianne







Keep looking in your everyday experience. Are you controlling anything? This but not that? Or life is happening without a you controlling it?

Yes, thoughts happen in experience, movement happens in experience and body also happens in experience. Can you find anything that isn't being experienced?

Let's see if there really is a Dianne having ideas!

Look at thoughts, please, make these "experiences" and tell me how it goes, one by one:

Can you see where do thoughts come from? Where do they go?

Do you know what your next thought is going to be?

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

Don't think of your right foot!

Think only "happy" thoughts for the next 10 minutes!

And my favorite question: can thoughts think?

Doing this can you find the thinker, a Dianne doing and controlling thoughts, to whom they belong?
If not are thoughts personal?

Sending love, Sandra

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Canfora
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby Canfora » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:11 pm

Hi Dianne, I'm glad to know everything is fine (storms in Portugal are rare!) and I loved reading your post.

Can you please tell me a little bit about your story, what made you start seeking?
(I'm not asking for any personal details, just a brief summary. I'm wondering what made you "come LU's way".)

How is the reading of the Gateless Gatecrashers book going? Is it helping in clarifying things?



Let's look at the way thoughts label reality.

There is a article in Ilona's blog that I would like you to read and a exercise that really helps in seeing how language creates the illusion of a separated self: http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html.

You don't need to post the exercise here if you prefer to do it with a pen and paper.

Here is part of the article and I underlined the questions that I would like you to answer:

"First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes.

Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one?
What is here without labels?
Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?


Your body knows. I is a label, not experiencer. Not a thinker, not a doer, not a hearer of rain. I is not what makes eyes blink and it is not a breather, it's a word, that is used for convenience of communication. If it's believed to be an entity, the mind is confused, the body is tensed up. Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?

Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I.

What is not on automatic?
And do we really need to be enslaved by labels? After all, experience is what labels point TO."

Sending love, Sandra

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dian
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Re: I would like a guide please.

Postby dian » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:08 pm

Hi Sandra,
If I start at the beginning I would say I always wanted to know why are we here and how did we get here. So at about 21 I started yoga. Enjoyed the stretches and exercises and relaxation afterwards but didn't answer any questions for me. Tried meditation quite a few times through my life but was not very good at that. Couldn't keep my mind still and just wanted it to be over. Did Tai Chi but still the problem with the mind not staying centred and still no answer to my question. Why are we here? A lot of books have been read over the years and sometimes believed I was close to the answer from these. This search has spanned a lot of years as I am almost 60 now and a husband and 3 children have kept me busy and happy but still searching. Some books and websites come so close and I can see what I want but found no way to get there just by believing what someone else wrote. I like John Shermans website as his message is simple "just look". Also Fred Davis nonduality website seems to be so direct. I could tell you of so many authors and websites over the years but I'm still here still asking the same question but I think now the understanding is better just not living that way. I hope this very brief summary of my search helps.

I will get back to you with my other responses.

bye for now
Dianne


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