Help

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kite
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Help

Postby kite » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:35 pm

Hi,

Can anyobe guide me and help 'me' out of this suffering. I have been on the spiritual search for half my life now, with no luck. In fact it's got worse and I feel ever so despondent. In desperation I'm trying this LU group in a last hope to get out of this web of suffering.

Would appreciate a one to one on Skype if possible

Many thanks

Kite
I know that I don't know

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:51 am

Sorry, but maybe I should have introduced myself (or the story of this 'me') first in my first post. The excitement of finally finding a network of guides who could help end this illusion was quite exhilarating and I just expressed the 'help' call without any thought. In fact I'm still buzzing on this hope that finally 'I' could be free from this psychological suffering. I hope this is not just another new found concept in my head which remain as a concept until it becomes dry and stagnant, only to be dropped in a state of despair and depression until another one comes along and I'm up the roller coaster again.
The above basically summarises what my spiritual journey is, as I have tried everything under the sun (almost) to attain Enlightenment, kill the ego, still the mind, transcend the body, know my true Self, gan primordial wisdom, be totally Aware et etc. I tried to do this by reading up, intellectual analysis, meditating, sitting under the feet of a live Advaita Guru (in India) for 4 years on a daily basis, praying, having devotion, Self Enquiry (Ramana Maharshi method) etc. etc. with no results whatsoever. I've sourced this from different tradition and non-traditions i.e. Buddhism, Hinduism (Advaita & Neo-Advaita), Zen, Tao, Christian mysticism, 12 Step Programs for drug addiction
Moreover I have abused psychotropic drugs like Canabbis & Nutmeg frequently and occasionally hallucinogens like LSD & Ecsatcy for 19 years now. In fact I'm still struggling to completely be free of them as when the going gets tough and I feel hopeless I indulge in something or the other to relieve the pain only to be more depressed when the highs come down and then seem to be going through a long period of recovery .I'm sort of allergic to most chemicals as I feel very bad for weeks thereafter even with a single dose or just one drink of alcohol (which I have very rarely). I feel I've damaged my system and my body doesn't produce the normal neurotransmitters to feel good naturally anymore. Having said that I have never been clean from all chemicals for a single year now since I'm 19. I endeavour to be clean but cannot successfully manage to although of you count the average number of days/year that I abuse drugs it could be about 40 days/year spread out.

I work in a boring office job which I don't enjoy and have kept changing jobs all my life and have done all sorts in from Gas station attendant (New York), DJ (India), Manager jobs in hotels, (India) English teacher (Thailand) Enforcement Officers, Driver for community people, Customer Services, and currently working as an admin asst. in a local government authority in England.

So I hope this gives a summary of what my life story entails and gives a background on my life experiences and conditioning.

NOW, I'm ready to be chiseled! Please Help!

With hope and gratitude(in advance)

Thanks
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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:03 am

Hi kite.

Why do you want to attain Enlightenment?

What are your expectations of this process ( the LU forum)?

Can you go into a bit more detail about your suffering? You say its psychological?

Is it possible that you are addicted to seeking? That you are addicted to the highs, the hope , the renewed energy? And also possibly to the lows, the self recrimination, the anguish?

What comes up for you when I say there is no you , no self, anywhere, and there never has been?

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:35 pm

Hi Neeeel,

Thanks for your offer to Help. I will endeavour to answer the questions honestly and thoroughly:
Why do you want to attain Enlightenment?
To get rid of the suffering and love everyone selflessly
What are your expectations of this process ( the LU forum)?
To understand the illsuion for what it is and whether this would get rid of the habits, feelings and thoughts that cause suffering
Can you go into a bit more detail about your suffering? You say its psychological?
In order of priority, this what I class as psychological suffering: general discontentment; gross sensations of heaviness and fatigue; craving for highs that turns into suffering when not fulfilled i.e. sadness, dissatisfaction with the mundane things; irritation especially when people don't do what I expect them to do; sense of being in limbo as I haven't 'got it' but yet cannot live the lay persons life or enjoy life the way the average person does inspite of having a big ego (or at least they seem to be)
Is it possible that you are addicted to seeking? That you are addicted to the highs, the hope , the renewed energy? And also possibly to the lows, the self recrimination, the anguish?
Possibly, but I feel that the high on finding a new concept is more to do with the hope that this could solve my problems
What comes up for you when I say there is no you , no self, anywhere, and there never has been?
I feel great as I've believed in this concept since 16 years now, however it has not achieved what it ought to have achieved i.e. reducing the suffering so I also simultaneously feel great doubt especially on whether the suffering will truly diminish if the 'me' disappears. I'm a bit unsure whether the 'me' is the root cause or whether it's just one more branch of suffering with the root being something else still yet undiscovered?
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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:46 pm


To get rid of the suffering and love everyone selflessly
Ok. Why do you want to get rid of the suffering and love everyone selflessly?

In order of priority, this what I class as psychological suffering: general discontentment; gross sensations of heaviness and fatigue; craving for highs that turns into suffering when not fulfilled i.e. sadness, dissatisfaction with the mundane things; irritation especially when people don't do what I expect them to do; sense of being in limbo as I haven't 'got it' but yet cannot live the lay persons life or enjoy life the way the average person does inspite of having a big ego (or at least they seem to be)
Can you go into the discontentment a bit more? What are you discontent about? What brings on the feelings of discontentment?

Why is it irritating when people dont do what you expect them to do?


I feel great as I've believed in this concept since 16 years now, however it has not achieved what it ought to have achieved i.e. reducing the suffering so I also simultaneously feel great doubt especially on whether the suffering will truly diminish if the 'me' disappears. I'm a bit unsure whether the 'me' is the root cause or whether it's just one more branch of suffering with the root being something else still yet undiscovered?
Believing in it is no good. Why do you believe in it? What gives you cause to think its true?
Do you really believe it? I would bet you dont. I bet, for instance, that you still believe that there is a you that makes decisions, that thinks thoughts, that has a personality, that sees, hears , and smells, that has a body ("my body") and so on.

If there is no "me", how can it disappear?

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:07 pm

I wrote a whole long reply to your questions and it just disappeared before I sent them! So frustrating. I guess this forum chat isn't designed for iPads as it doesn't allow me to quote either.

Anyway here goes again. Sorry I won't quote your question but I'll answer them in the same order as you wrote them

I wanted to get rid of suffering as it's got the quality of uneasiness and pain and that has a quality of wanting to escape from. I want to love everyone selflessly as that produces a feeling of lightness and beauty which enhances wellbeing for me and others. I have had this feeling several times, more often with drugs than without but nevertheless had them whilst meditating, whilst listening to good music or simply without any immediate cause.

I feel discontent that I haven't found the truth that will set me free yet, discontent about having to live with people who are least interested in the path that I'm on and that I have to be false to blend in with them. I feel discontent for not able to in a happy state most of the times if not all the time.
People irritate me as they don't understand me and also hanker after immediate pleasures and seem to be content with that way of life while I am neither here nor there as I'm not liberated and niether am I content with the mundane lifestyle that theories seemed to be happy in. I cant stand it when they so shallow and stupid not to want to seek the same thing I'm seeking. Sounds unreasonable but these are the emotions that trouble me quite a lot.

You are right. I don't really believe in no 'me' but would truly want to as I've been trying for years to make this understanding go deeper than a mere intellectual one, unsuccessfully as I've been told that this will cause liberation. I can't truly say that this is 100% true as I have no experience of this first hand and can only believe this to be so. So I would like to but can't as I probably have a hidden belief that this may not ensue in liberation and that it may be a side track to real liberation which could be something else.

This last question seemed to touch something. I feel that there is no 'me' but there definitely is an illusion of 'me' so what I really want is the illusion of 'me' to disappear rather than a non-existent entity to disappear.

Thanks
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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:36 pm

Hi Kite, thanks for your reply


I wanted to get rid of suffering as it's got the quality of uneasiness and pain and that has a quality of wanting to escape from. I want to love everyone selflessly as that produces a feeling of lightness and beauty which enhances wellbeing for me and others. I have had this feeling several times, more often with drugs than without but nevertheless had them whilst meditating, whilst listening to good music or simply without any immediate cause.
All these expectations are probably not going to be fulfilled by seeing no self. Everyone is different, and its possible that a lot of stuff would be wiped out, but from my personal experience thoughts, beliefs and actions that were present before seeing no self, are still present after seeing no self.

An interesting exercise for you to try. Next time you get uneasiness and pain, instead of pushing it away, invite it closer. Let it get stronger, more painful and uneasy. Does it stay forever? Does it fluctuate in strength? The signals saying "Danger, escape! escape! get away!" , are they coming from anywhere, can you find their source? Is there also fear?
I feel discontent that I haven't found the truth that will set me free yet,
There is no you to be set free. What there is, is a belief that there is a you, and that it needs to be set free.
discontent about having to live with people who are least interested in the path that I'm on and that I have to be false to blend in with them. I feel discontent for not able to in a happy state most of the times if not all the time.
People irritate me as they don't understand me and also hanker after immediate pleasures and seem to be content with that way of life while I am neither here nor there as I'm not liberated and niether am I content with the mundane lifestyle that theories seemed to be happy in. I cant stand it when they so shallow and stupid not to want to seek the same thing I'm seeking. Sounds unreasonable but these are the emotions that trouble me quite a lot.
Would it be fair to say that you have a picture of "how things should be", and it doesnt match up to "how things actually are"? That a lot of your suffering is due to the perceived difference between how things should be, and how things actually are? Look at your beliefs.For example, you believe that you should be in a happy state most of the time. When you compare that belief to reality, and they dont match, you get upset. Imagine if you didnt have the belief "I should be happy all the time", what would it be like?
You are right. I don't really believe in no 'me'
Can you answer the following questions, honestly, from your own experience, rather than what you have read. A yes or no will do,although you can expand on your answers if you want.

Do you believe that you are the one making decisions?
Do you believe that you are the one thinking thoughts?
Do you believe that you have a personality?
Do you believe that you have a body?
Do you believe that you see , that you are the one that is perceiving through your eyes?
Do you believe that you hear, that you are the one that is hearing through your ears?

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:28 pm

Hi Neeeel,
All these expectations are probably not going to be fulfilled by seeing no self. Everyone is different, and its possible that a lot of stuff would be wiped out, but from my personal experience thoughts, beliefs and actions that were present before seeing no self, are still present after seeing no self.
I have always had a burning question on this actually: Why is it supposed that that a lot of the unwanted stuff is based on the sense of self and that will disappear after seein 'no self'? I think you are true to say that thoughts, beliefs and actions will still remain after the seeing. So what benefit will it be to this body-mind that experiences so much pain due to its habits, thoughts and feelings? If so then I'm not interested in this realisation as it's just another branch and not the root that will be cut off. What I'm truly looking for is the end of suffering, the way Buddha described it: Dukkha, if not a permanent feeling of ease, lightness, love and wellbeing (which I agree is quite unrealistic)
An interesting exercise for you to try. Next time you get uneasiness and pain, instead of pushing it away, invite it closer. Let it get stronger, more painful and uneasy. Does it stay forever? Does it fluctuate in strength? The signals saying "Danger, escape! escape! get away!" , are they coming from anywhere, can you find their source? Is there also fear?
I have tried this several times with no result. The pain doesn't stay forever but it keeps coming back periodically with near about the same intensity as ever. Can't find where they are coming from, they just appear I guess! No fear can be recognised. It's more a feeling of being trapped, dullness and heaviness.
Imagine if you didnt have the belief "I should be happy all the time", what would it be like?
That still wouldn't stop the desire to be balanced and have a more deeper acceptance of the bad times
Do you believe that you are the one making decisions?
No (at least on the conscious level). I'm unsure about the sub-conscious mind though.
Do you believe that you are the one thinking thoughts?
Definitely not
Do you believe that you have a personality?
There is a personality for sure but no seperate entity owning it
Do you believe that you have a body?
No, but again, there is an experience of body through thought images, sight, direct feelings occuring
Do you believe that you see , that you are the one that is perceiving through your eyes?
Do you believe that you hear, that you are the one that is hearing through your ears?
No, there is 'just seeing' & 'just hearing'

Also Neeeel, I have a question please which has bugged me quite a lot, so would appreciate a comprehensive answer: How is it that although most people in this world who believe they truly are a seperate self and are not the least bit interested in the matters engaged here or even the least bit introspective, seem to be happy or content with their life, in spite of having all the variations of emotions and thoughts. How come the illusion of self doesn't bog them down enough to find a way out? There are some people who are honestly enjoying their mundane lives without any complain? What is the mechanism behind that?

Mnay thanks
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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:26 pm


I have always had a burning question on this actually: Why is it supposed that that a lot of the unwanted stuff is based on the sense of self and that will disappear after seein 'no self'? I think you are true to say that thoughts, beliefs and actions will still remain after the seeing. So what benefit will it be to this body-mind that experiences so much pain due to its habits, thoughts and feelings?
Because the suffering is caused by the belief in a separate self. The suffering isnt due to the habits, thoughts and feelings, its due to a belief that there is a self that is having these habits, thoughts and feelings.

Do you believe that you are the one making decisions?
No (at least on the conscious level). I'm unsure about the sub-conscious mind though.
Do you believe that you are the one thinking thoughts?
Definitely not
Do you believe that you have a personality?
There is a personality for sure but no seperate entity owning it
Do you believe that you have a body?
No, but again, there is an experience of body through thought images, sight, direct feelings occuring
Do you believe that you see , that you are the one that is perceiving through your eyes?
Do you believe that you hear, that you are the one that is hearing through your ears?
No, there is 'just seeing' & 'just hearing'
You say all this, but there is no indication that I can see that you actually see it, that you have actually experienced it for yourself. So, how do you know that you are not thinking your thoughts, etc? Tell me what brought you to these conclusions? What did you see ?
You just read all this, or learned it from some guru didnt you?
It seems clear to me that the belief in a separate self is still active and strong in you.
Also Neeeel, I have a question please which has bugged me quite a lot, so would appreciate a comprehensive answer: How is it that although most people in this world who believe they truly are a seperate self and are not the least bit interested in the matters engaged here or even the least bit introspective, seem to be happy or content with their life, in spite of having all the variations of emotions and thoughts. How come the illusion of self doesn't bog them down enough to find a way out? There are some people who are honestly enjoying their mundane lives without any complain? What is the mechanism behind that?
Because, believe it or not, they are actually more liberated than you.

I know that you like to see yourself above them, as better than them, stupid people, they dont have a clue about anything. But they are way ahead of you. Yes, they are still stuck in the illusion. But so are you. They are more accepting, along for the ride, go with the flow, you believe that there is something more worthy, that being a seeker makes you somehow better. Well there isnt, and it doesnt. The seeking is just as much a part of the illusion.

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:00 pm

So in effect you are saying that there is more of a sense of self here than in people who haven't began to question whether there self is real or not. You know what,....you seem to be absolutely right! I completely understand now that they are more liberated. Wow! That hurts but I can't seem to refute that fact. Thanks for that.
Ok now that I know I'm really identified, what do I do? You say that I'm repeating words of a guru, which also may be true. I'm ready to start from scratch and forget everything I know intellectually (or at least ignore it when these answers cross my mind). Having said that how will I know when a genuine insight occurs?
Also I will be honest with you that I'm not totally convinced that the self is the sole cause of suffering, although I trust you and will accept your words. I don't want to parrot your wisdom so I will need experiential proof to agree totally with that fact. How do I do that?
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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:40 pm

So in effect you are saying that there is more of a sense of self here than in people who haven't began to question whether there self is real or not. You know what,....you seem to be absolutely right! I completely understand now that they are more liberated. Wow! That hurts but I can't seem to refute that fact. Thanks for that.
I certainly know from my own experience that this seems to be the case. I never understood how people acted differently to me. I was always told I took things too personally, and I never understood why they didnt. I mean, someone says something insulting, that is directly from one self to another right? So how can I take it anything other than personally? There is an active entity over there that doesnt like this entity over here, or thinks I am stupid, or whatever. As you say, Im guessing their sense of self isnt as strong, so they dont take things as personally. They still totally believe that theres a self doing everything, but somehow they arent identified in the same way I was.
Ok now that I know I'm really identified, what do I do? You say that I'm repeating words of a guru, which also may be true. I'm ready to start from scratch and forget everything I know intellectually (or at least ignore it when these answers cross my mind). Having said that how will I know when a genuine insight occurs?
I dont know if you are repeating the words of a guru or not. I am trying to get you to look at whether you have really seen that there is no you doing the thoughts, emotions, etc.
Starting from scratch and forgetting everything you know intellectually will be a good start.
Thing is, you have to do it all for yourself. I can only point, and say "look there", and you have to put in the time to actually look.
So, lets start with thoughts. Spend as much time as you can, throughout the day, observing thoughts. We dont care about the content, what they are about, but where they come from. You dont need to set aside a special time of day to do it, do it every time you remember to. Make a mark on the back of your hand, and every time you see the mark, use it to remind yourself to look at thoughts again.

Observe how some thoughts seem personal. What makes them personal? Does the thought "I did this" or "I want that" come from an self? Note how often a "personal" thought occurs.

Watch what triggers a thought. This may be simpler in some instances than others. For example, you may see a photo of your girlfriend, or family member , or whatever, and you can notice that a thought appears about them, or a memory of the last time you saw them. Each time you notice the trigger, look and see if there is a you that thought the thought.

Observe how much time during the day you spend lost in trains of thought. As you are walking down the street,or making dinner, or whatever, are you paying attention to whats around you, and what you are doing, or are you following endless trains of thought about all sorts of things? Are any of these trains of thought caused by a you? Does 1 thought follow another, sometimes logically, sometimes not so logically?

Try and predict your next thought. Is the prediction also a thought? does the prediction thought trigger a thought about what you predicted you would think about?
Notice how sometimes seemingly random thoughts about stuff will pop up, and you will go "why did I think of that". Sometimes you will be able to see what the trigger was, most times not.

Think of something random. How easy is it? Is the thought that comes up truely random? Do you have a stock set of "random" thoughts? Observe how a whole lot of quick thoughts pop up, until one is chosen as "random"
Observe how the mind searches for a thought it can call random, and how it sometimes needs to use objects in the field of view to trigger the thought. Are any of the thoughts that come up claiming to be random coming from a self, a you? Is it you that is selecting the random thought?

Most important is to always look for the source of thoughts. Can you find it? Is it you?

Spend as much time as you can each day doing this, and let me know how you get on.
Also I will be honest with you that I'm not totally convinced that the self is the sole cause of suffering, although I trust you and will accept your words. I don't want to parrot your wisdom so I will need experiential proof to agree totally with that fact. How do I do that?
I have no idea if the self is the sole cause of suffering, I would guess probably not. It doesnt matter, this can be the start of an endless process. There is no target, no end, no aim. Just deeper and deeper investigation of reality.
Experiential proof of no self is gained by doing the above observation of thoughts. I dont know how you would experientially prove that the self is the sole cause of suffering.

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:33 am

Thank you so much Neeeel.

Will try and do what you suggested as much as possible and keep you informed on what occurs.

By the way which part of the world are you from and what do you? Sorry but just asking so I get an idea of how you function in this world. It would be nice to know a little about you, however it is enough to know that you a guide and have seen through this illusion. If you don't wish to share this I will completely understand..
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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:44 pm

I am from scotland, and if by what do you do, you mean what job, I dont have a job.

Let me know how the day goes.

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kite
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Re: Help

Postby kite » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:13 pm

Thanks for sharing that Neeeel.

Today was a very busy and stressful day so I couldn't do much, but the little gaps that I had I did try ( I also put a T mark on the back of both my hands so that I could remember but would hardly notice my hands too.

Anyway from what I did observe I truly couldn't find a generator of the thoughts. The source remained mysterious and non-graspable but there was definitely no self that could be seen or felt creating those thoughts, although it did feel as though there were some impersonal thoughts and some 'I' thoughts.
And also when sometimes the thought would occur that I am having this thought, another thought came up that 'I' is only a grammatical word and could be replaced with, this body mind organism is having the thought, so what's really wrong with replacing the long and awkward word body-mind organism with the smaller and easier word 'I', knowing fully well that there is no autonomic entity in that word 'I'?
One question kept popping up though which has arisen before: what is it that does the looking for the source of thoughts or who is it that is asked to do this enquiry if there is no one there to do it in the first place. Aren't your instructions more thoughts that trigger the thoughts of looking and the outcome being further more thought? I can easily answer this question by stating intellectual wisdom stating that it is awareness that does the looking and the discovery is Self-realisation but that would not be of any intrinsic value would it as its borrowed wisdom. So how can I know from within what the answer is?

Thanks
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neeeel
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Re: Help

Postby neeeel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:56 pm


Anyway from what I did observe I truly couldn't find a generator of the thoughts. The source remained mysterious and non-graspable but there was definitely no self that could be seen or felt creating those thoughts, although it did feel as though there were some impersonal thoughts and some 'I' thoughts.
Are the I thoughts any different from any other thoughts? If so, how?
And also when sometimes the thought would occur that I am having this thought, another thought came up that 'I' is only a grammatical word and could be replaced with, this body mind organism is having the thought, so what's really wrong with replacing the long and awkward word body-mind organism with the smaller and easier word 'I', knowing fully well that there is no autonomic entity in that word 'I'?
Nothing is wrong with that at all. At the moment though, you dont know full well that there is no autonomic entity, do you?

One question kept popping up though which has arisen before: what is it that does the looking for the source of thoughts or who is it that is asked to do this enquiry if there is no one there to do it in the first place.
Answer it yourself, by looking. What is it that does the looking for the source of thoughts?
Asking "who is it" presupposes a who, so is probably not the best pointer to use.

Aren't your instructions more thoughts that trigger the thoughts of looking and the outcome being further more thought?
Whether my instructions trigger thoughts which trigger more thoughts is irrelevant. What you are looking for is the source of the thoughts. I am not asking you to think about thoughts, or to think about looking.

Thoughts about thoughts, and thoughts about looking are not going to help you.

Looking is going to help you. Do you see the difference? Do you know the difference between thinking about thoughts, and looking at thoughts?
Dont worry, its easy to get caught in this sort of loop, where you try to think your way to an answer. If you notice it happening, just relax, and start looking at thoughts, looking to see if you are doing them. You can use the thoughts about looking, and observe those thoughts and watch how they appear. You can notice how my instruction to look, triggered certain thoughts.


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