Ok, Tak, well I guess we dont need introductions or back stories , you've shared plenty in the experiment, and thanks again for giving it a real go. It highlighted to me a few things ,and was a great learning process, both for all this, but also for my own continuing investigations!!
Anyway, so , we may as get started.
As of today, where are you at? What is the self in your experience right now? And what is it you would like to see?
Tak
Re: Tak
I’m going to take this in chunks.Ok, Tak, well I guess we don’t need introductions or back stories , you've shared plenty in the experiment, and thanks again for giving it a real go. It highlighted to me a few things ,and was a great learning process, both for all this, but also for my own continuing investigations!!
Anyway, so , we may as get started.
As of today, where are you at? What is the self in your experience right now? And what is it you would like to see?
This may not have been your intended answer to this question, perhaps the ‘where are you at?’ was intended to be a modifier for ‘what is the self in your experience’. However, i’m going to take it as a 1 question of 3.Anyway, so , we may as get started. As of today, where are you at? What is the self in your experience right now? And what is it you would like to see?
I’ve been trying to stay “out of my head”. I’ve got a wristband on my wrist to remind me to “surrender” and/or “stay out of my head, experience the world instead of thinking about it”As of today, where are you at?
I’m trying to be grateful, but im feeling dismayed and frustrated. I feel like i’ve squandered many a good crisis in my life. Let me explain .. Over the past 10-15 years (i’m 43) I’ve got three, maybe four times that I can think of where I felt like I was at a junction where I am “ripe” for a realization -- or a change -- or a vast potential ready to unfold. Half the time it comes at the ending of a relationship, half the time while traveling. The commonality seems to be that my assumptions and beliefs are fundamentally shaken. I’ve always felt nervous and scared during these times, but i usually stagger my way thru, and then after i pull myself back together , i tell myself that I’m proud of being able to “move on” or “get back to real life”. Although a tiny part of me is hugely disappointed that i didn’t “go for it” (whatever the “it” was that was pulling at me), and falls back to await the next moment to try and take root again.
So Im very grateful for this latest “crisis”, for it has once again brought me to a place where I feel i can make a shift if im brave enough. And I’m so grateful to be offered the opportunity for some help this time.
As I shared with you before, i’ve just come to the end of the second of two very intense relationships over the last year and a half, both of which have really challenged me. Honestly, my first impulse is that I want to find someone to love and be loved, and to put into practice all this theory that I have on relationships. But no one wants to date a dating textbook. Upon closer examination, i find that im too afraid to accept and love myself for fear of being rejected that I attempt to use my mind to twist myself into what my mind imagines my partner wants to have. The stupid mind is spinning simulations of the future and trying to act upon those simulations in order to get what I think will present the most appealing view of what I can only assume is my deeply damaged view of myself. Nothing but suffering comes from that, for me or the her, let me tell you.
So, my original plan was to embark on a voyage of self discovery .. find out who this “mark” is, what he likes, what he doesn’t, what he’s good at, what his preferences are, etc. Once I got a handle on that, then I imagined I could really embrace what I discovered, be courageous enought to “own it” and defend it and live it, let it guide my decisions and choices … and finally love myself enough to be worthy of love by another. Being honest here, remember. That’s what i felt, tho it feels ridiculous and sad to give it voice.
Writing this makes me feel very sad. Because I feel two things. 1) that I must not really love myself and at the same time -- 2) that the whole process i just described is a huge pile of imaginary bullshit conjured up by my mind as it writhes and twists trying to make sense of the past and the future … and the whole time the mind isn’t really even “me”. The mind, a beautifully crafted tool “gone mad” has taken over the experience of living. To mix metaphors, if my mind is a hammer to which everything is a nail to be pounded, my mind has taken over the experience of living and i find myself THINKING my way thru life instead of experiencing the flow and joy of it. Such sadness and loss... at the years of self suffering and loss of potential relationship experiences that I would love to experience as icing on top of a wholely self-contained/loved/joyful “me”.
i feel a great deal of resistance to directly answering this question. I just deleted several paragraphs where I don’t answer the question.What is the self in your experience right now?
Honestly, i feel like a huge faker. I’ve read enough to know what i “should” be feeling about the self, but i don’t feel like any of it has stuck. It takes a great force of will (mind?) for me to (surrender?) behave / think / experience some of the things people have said have led them on their own path.
part of this is lashing out as well... one of my mind’s other defense mechanisms .. “i’m scared, lets attack”, then I can scare away my help before i can be revealed as a hopeless case.
fuck me, im still not answering. I’ve never been brave enough to look at it.What is the self in your experience right now?
ok, deep breath. lets see, i’ll try to do this w/o getting stuck in my head or overly analytical.
frankly, it sounds like a stupid question.
What’s the self? Why it’s me of course.
This body? Why no, no, of course not. I can have any number of body parts removed / replaced w/o altering “the self”.
Maybe it’s my preferences.. but no, those can change over time -- the Mark at age 8 liked different things that the mark at at 43 -- and i dont feel like that alters who I believe “i am”
tho that leads me to growth. has “self” started out as 1 thing and gone thru a series of changes and ended up as something else? what’s growing? a soul? That’s certainly a society / comfortable view of “self” .. your essense / soul embodied in a changing and aging body, collecting experiences and wisdom and (hopefully) growing in potential until you die, upon which it we don’t know what happens to it .. i was taught it goes to heaven / hell, i’ve heard lots of other theories too.
So do i believe “self” is a “soul”? I think that’s the strong foundation from which im operating.. layers and layers of unquestioned assumptions there. In fact, there’s built in dogma saying that the soul is a mystery and requires faith .. don’t bother trying to know or understand it.
My experiences over the last few years with some sort of zen-style mediation have led me to see that maybe I’m not a soul, at least in the way I’d been thinking of it -- as a “spark” embedded in the mind of this body. The endless parade of thought, the observer of thought, the experiencing just happening.. that really seems right to me somehow.
Looking back, im not ever sure i thought of myself as being my thoughts. Back in catholic school, i remember being told that God or the Devil puts thoughts into your head, and, via the gift of free-will, you get to choose which ones to act upon, nurture, speak or otherwise express.
gremlin-voice (a quiet-mind teacher told me to try and disidentify my thoughts by attributing them to a gremlin from the 80s movie.. don’t pay attention to them and they fade .. feed them and they grow).. anyway, gremlin-voice is trying to call bullshit on me .. im parrotting expected answers again.
my experience of self right now is the same as that of any other hapless locked-in-the-dream dreamer. Tonight i believe no differently than anyone else .. I am my mind, my thoughts and my self (but dont bother to ask me what that is). Occasionally I think i catch myself trying to open my eyes, but promptly screw them back shut again.
how do i go from my years of unquestioned belief in “myself as a soul” , to my “hurm, zen-no-thought maybe im not my thoughgts” to “i dont exist, i never did, a tool (my mind) has hijacked experiencing the world”
I want something better. a better way to experience my time here on earth. I’ve read that if I can only see “the truth” and experience the “shift in perspective”, everything will be the same, but i simply do not mind what is because i am not dwelling on what has already fallen away into the past or concering myself with what might appear in my future. I can just be. I can release myself from the self/mind-generated suffering that prevents me from experiencing the now in whatever form it might take .. i imagine it would be wonderful to release myself from this suffering. If seeing that I don’t exist can help me with that, then I’d love to to see that i dont exist.And what is it you would like to see?
im afraid that i’ve disqualifed myself from the club .. “oh, he’s so not ready”
but i feel im once again at that junction .. i can pull myself back together and reset to “normal” , but that tiny part of me is once again whispering that there’s something else available … be brave, you can do it.
dammit, i wish i could just shut the hell up with all this thinking and go have sex, that’s always been the path that offers the easiest way for me to stop thinking, over-analyzing, over-controller-ing and just experience what’s right now. (not to say that my mind can’t fuck that up too, but less often).Anyway, so , we may as get started. As of today, where are you at? What is the self in your experience right now? And what is it you would like to see?
yikes, now observing and trying to fend off some mind-suffering around wishing for things to be other than they are.
/breathe
“poser”
“shutup”
“breathe”
sitting
paste on a smile?
“now is perfect”
“poser”
keep looking!
at what?
/sigh
crap, now i’m being cute and creative writer
man it’s noisy in here. :)
Re: Tak
This post will be a small bit long, but Im going to try and keep the rest of them more basic and direct, just I need to clear up one or two things.
Ok , theres alot of stuff there, and if I leave out large chunks, its not because I didnt read it, its because there is only one thing of interest here,and thats getting you to see no self! Nothing else.
You say there have had times in your life when you felt "ripe" and it didnt happen, probably because you were more interested in the current situation in your life etc rather than investigating your own experience.
So thats what we'll try do now!
I need you to do one thing if thats cool, and people tend to forget to do this , but EVERY time I ask a question, even if it seems rhetorical, or looks like im trying to make a point, could you answer it! Thats all, really look, and answer with as much honesty in your experience as possible, thats all. So whenever you see one of these ? , im actually fully asking you the question even if it doesnt look like it.
Another thing as well, we need to try keep the focus here, you're determination isnt lacking, but the direction your focus is at is (at the moment).
Also ,while its good to get honest reports, we need to keep it simple too , so while personally I dont mind reading posts, when they get too long it becomes obvious there is a distraction building. That said, I would HATE if I thought you were holding something back just to keep the posts shorter, so if you have to write it definitely, definitely do, but otherwise, if you could keep stuff a bit more simpler itd be great!!
what influences these thoughts? Where do they come from?
Ever get a christmas feeling? Or any other similar occasion? Are those feelings based on anything more than concept generated by language?
Ok , theres alot of stuff there, and if I leave out large chunks, its not because I didnt read it, its because there is only one thing of interest here,and thats getting you to see no self! Nothing else.
You say there have had times in your life when you felt "ripe" and it didnt happen, probably because you were more interested in the current situation in your life etc rather than investigating your own experience.
So thats what we'll try do now!
I need you to do one thing if thats cool, and people tend to forget to do this , but EVERY time I ask a question, even if it seems rhetorical, or looks like im trying to make a point, could you answer it! Thats all, really look, and answer with as much honesty in your experience as possible, thats all. So whenever you see one of these ? , im actually fully asking you the question even if it doesnt look like it.
Another thing as well, we need to try keep the focus here, you're determination isnt lacking, but the direction your focus is at is (at the moment).
Also ,while its good to get honest reports, we need to keep it simple too , so while personally I dont mind reading posts, when they get too long it becomes obvious there is a distraction building. That said, I would HATE if I thought you were holding something back just to keep the posts shorter, so if you have to write it definitely, definitely do, but otherwise, if you could keep stuff a bit more simpler itd be great!!
Ok, lets drop stuff like "surrender", its too confusing imo, but before we do, 1st question, what literally in your direct experience is attempting to surrender?
I’ve been trying to stay “out of my head”. I’ve got a wristband on my wrist to remind me to “surrender” and/or “stay out of my head, experience the world instead of thinking about it”
no problem ,lets forget about the past , and really do go for it this time.I’m trying to be grateful, but im feeling dismayed and frustrated. I feel like i’ve squandered many a good crisis in my life. Let me explain .. Over the past 10-15 years (i’m 43) I’ve got three, maybe four times that I can think of where I felt like I was at a junction where I am “ripe” for a realization -- or a change -- or a vast potential ready to unfold. Half the time it comes at the ending of a relationship, half the time while traveling. The commonality seems to be that my assumptions and beliefs are fundamentally shaken. I’ve always felt nervous and scared during these times, but i usually stagger my way thru, and then after i pull myself back together , i tell myself that I’m proud of being able to “move on” or “get back to real life”. Although a tiny part of me is hugely disappointed that i didn’t “go for it” (whatever the “it” was that was pulling at me), and falls back to await the next moment to try and take root again.
Ok, nice honesty, but now its time to redirect your attention/focus, when you speak of this "Mark", its talents, preferences, its desire to be loved, etc could you describe what in the real tangible world you are referring to here? Outside of concept, with your direct experience, i.e. your senses, what is it you are talking about?So, my original plan was to embark on a voyage of self discovery .. find out who this “mark” is, what he likes, what he doesn’t, what he’s good at, what his preferences are, etc. Once I got a handle on that, then I imagined I could really embrace what I discovered, be courageous enought to “own it” and defend it and live it, let it guide my decisions and choices … and finally love myself enough to be worthy of love by another. Being honest here, remember. That’s what i felt, tho it feels ridiculous and sad to give it voice.
Ok, first forget about trying to surrender, and forget about picturing what its like, or how you should be behaving, forget about all potential outcomes and concentrate on what it is you are talking about,Honestly, i feel like a huge faker. I’ve read enough to know what i “should” be feeling about the self, but i don’t feel like any of it has stuck. It takes a great force of will (mind?) for me to (surrender?) behave / think / experience some of the things people have said have led them on their own path.
what influences these thoughts? Where do they come from?
Ok, good , NOWWW we are getting focused, this is what the entire thread should be about.fuck me, im still not answering. I’ve never been brave enough to look at it.What is the self in your experience right now?
ok, deep breath. lets see, i’ll try to do this w/o getting stuck in my head or overly analytical.
frankly, it sounds like a stupid question.
What’s the self? Why it’s me of course.
This body? Why no, no, of course not. I can have any number of body parts removed / replaced w/o altering “the self”.
Preferences are bodily responses to stimulants, so where does Mark start and end in this?Maybe it’s my preferences.. but no, those can change over time -- the Mark at age 8 liked different things that the mark at at 43 -- and i dont feel like that alters who I believe “i am”
Lets stop assuming there is something to have all these features, what if there is nothing there at all?tho that leads me to growth. has “self” started out as 1 thing and gone thru a series of changes and ended up as something else? what’s growing? a soul? That’s certainly a society / comfortable view of “self” .. your essense / soul embodied in a changing and aging body, collecting experiences and wisdom and (hopefully) growing in potential until you die, upon which it we don’t know what happens to it
Remember a belief doesnt need anything real to make it FEEL real.So do i believe “self” is a “soul”? I think that’s the strong foundation from which im operating.. layers and layers of unquestioned assumptions there. In fact, there’s built in dogma saying that the soul is a mystery and requires faith .. don’t bother trying to know or understand it.
Ever get a christmas feeling? Or any other similar occasion? Are those feelings based on anything more than concept generated by language?
Exactly, its not happening TO anything, Why does that sit right moreso than the idea of a self controlling the body?My experiences over the last few years with some sort of zen-style mediation have led me to see that maybe I’m not a soul, at least in the way I’d been thinking of it -- as a “spark” embedded in the mind of this body. The endless parade of thought, the observer of thought, the experiencing just happening.. that really seems right to me somehow.
Nice honesty, but its time to perservere!!my experience of self right now is the same as that of any other hapless locked-in-the-dream dreamer. Tonight i believe no differently than anyone else .. I am my mind, my thoughts and my self (but dont bother to ask me what that is). Occasionally I think i catch myself trying to open my eyes, but promptly screw them back shut again.
By looking at your direct reality , right now, all the time, and checking is that bolded statement actually true.how do i go from my years of unquestioned belief in “myself as a soul” , to my “hurm, zen-no-thought maybe im not my thoughgts” to “i dont exist, i never did, a tool (my mind) has hijacked experiencing the world”
Well then, you seem to have a clear idea of what this is about so!! Good stuff, although, something I would have liked to have known is that all the dismantling only STARTS after realizing there is no self.I want something better. a better way to experience my time here on earth. I’ve read that if I can only see “the truth” and experience the “shift in perspective”, everything will be the same, but i simply do not mind what is because i am not dwelling on what has already fallen away into the past or concering myself with what might appear in my future. I can just be. I can release myself from the self/mind-generated suffering that prevents me from experiencing the now in whatever form it might take .. i imagine it would be wonderful to release myself from this suffering. If seeing that I don’t exist can help me with that, then I’d love to to see that i dont exist.
ITs no big deal, its already the case right now, theres nothing to even get rid of, its a case of you going through a process to SEE that its already the case. You dont need special qualifications hehe.im afraid that i’ve disqualifed myself from the club .. “oh, he’s so not ready”
but i feel im once again at that junction .. i can pull myself back together and reset to “normal” , but that tiny part of me is once again whispering that there’s something else available … be brave, you can do it.
Ok lets not get too hard on ourselves, it sounds like you've built up some language and ideas and ways of approaching all this, (i.e. being hard on yourself for wishing for things other than they are etc, or being hard on yourself for over anlazying). Lets try pretend you have never come across any form of teaching or spirituality/whatever, and you are starting completely clean and fresh like a random person walking in off the street, and your only interest here is seeing there is already no Mark.dammit, i wish i could just shut the hell up with all this thinking and go have sex, that’s always been the path that offers the easiest way for me to stop thinking, over-analyzing, over-controller-ing and just experience what’s right now. (not to say that my mind can’t fuck that up too, but less often).
yikes, now observing and trying to fend off some mind-suffering around wishing for things to be other than they are.
It certainly is, lol, so lets try and keep it simple, direct and focused!!/breathe
“poser”
“shutup”
“breathe”
sitting
paste on a smile?
“now is perfect”
“poser”
keep looking!
at what?
/sigh
crap, now i’m being cute and creative writer
man it’s noisy in here. :)
Re: Tak
drat, this got long. Before I post the long response, I feel that i should say i think the questions you asked were amazing and led me to what feels like a single(hopefully) sticking point. maybe future posts will be shorter and more focused as I dig into that spot...
Re: Tak
Thanks for the effort, i really appreciate it.This post will be a small bit long, but Im going to try and keep the rest of them more basic and direct, just I need to clear up one or two things.
Good point. I’ll be vigilant for thoseI need you to do one thing.. but EVERY time I ask a question, even if it seems rhetorical, or looks like im trying to make a point, could you answer it!
yes, i’m on board. fierce editting . [ edit note: or not quite this time.. hopefully next one... ]Another thing as well, we need to try keep the focus here, you're determination isnt lacking, but the direction your focus is at is (at the moment) …. if you could keep stuff a bit more simpler itd be great!!
that’s a slippery question. i’d always assumed me was attempting to surrender. Which probably means my mind. And if my mind is attempting to surrender, that’d mean that it would have to let go and let itself acknowledge that it doesnt exist. So maybe it’s responsible for throwing up all kinds of defenses.. emotions, distractions .. so it can go on thinking its in charge.Ok, lets drop stuff like "surrender", its too confusing imo, but before we do, 1st question, what literally in your direct experience is attempting to surrender?
bah, feels too thoughty.
direct experience .. i’d have to say i’m trying to get my mind and thoughts out of the way so that I can freely and openly experience whatever is at hand. I’m trying to behave as I believe I would behave after I’ve “seen it”. I’m expending some effort to not focus on past and future pointing attention so that I might (hopefully enjoy) where and what I’m doing.
I feel like i’m shoving my mind / thoughts aside tho, rather than whatever else might be possible.
bah, still too thoughty. meat..
when I attempt to surrender, i look for a sensation of clenching or tightness. Ive found if i breathe or pay attention to that area, some of that sensation fades, which usually feels good.
i dont think i understand the question. i feel like deleting the stuff i just wrote.
grateful. That’ll be a relief.no problem ,lets forget about the past , and really do go for it this time.I’m trying to be grateful, but im feeling dismayed and frustrated. I feel like i’ve squandered many a good crisis in my life. Let me explain .. …..
When i speak of Mark and its talents, prefs, etc. I’m referring to the gifts of mind and body available to Mark. At a trivial level, Mark’s body doesn’t enjoy walnuts, but enjoys the taste of chocolate. Mark’s body seems to be agile and enjoy balance-related sports and exercises. Mark’s mind is analytical and clever and I experience the emotion of enjoyment from being put to use at work and at play where those mental skills can be appreciated.Ok, nice honesty, but now its time to redirect your attention/focus, when you speak of this "Mark", its talents, preferences, its desire to be loved, etc could you describe what in the real tangible world you are referring to here? Outside of concept, with your direct experience, i.e. your senses, what is it you are talking about?So, my original plan was to embark on a voyage of self discovery .. find out who this “mark” is, what he likes, what he doesn’t, what he’s good at, what his preferences are, etc. …
Mark’s desire to be loved has a physical component that’s tied to the sensations of the body and the emotions that i’ve found to occur in a past relationships.
I’m not sure how to address Mark’s craving for future affection .. that doesnt seem to be tied to a real world sense at all, unless it’s the sensation of uneasiness conjured up from the thought of not having access to a relationship in the future, or a pleasant anticipation feeling that stems from the thought of having something later on.
But there is no direct sensory thing going on here when i experience thoughts about the future. This makes sense to me.. my body only knows how to experience now, and these thoughts can give rise to real feelings and sensations based on .. a story about something that hasn’t happened or has already happened.
lots to forget. :) gladly left behind.Ok, first forget about trying to surrender, and forget about picturing what its like, or how you should be behaving, forget about all potential outcomesHonestly, i feel like a huge faker. I’ve read enough to know what i “should” be feeling about the self, but i don’t feel like any of it has stuck. It takes a great force of will (mind?) for me to (surrender?) behave / think / experience some of the things people have said have led them on their own path.
ok - what is it that i am talking about? i’m talking about feeling like a faker. Concentrating on that feeling. the influence on these thoughts of being a faker seems to be an expectation of future judgement or failure from other people. Where do those thoughts come from? -- i dont see the origin .. they arise in my mind very quickly and w/o thought or “verbal” form .. it’s more like a feeling that triggers some sort of reaction from my body .. unease, discomfort, a desire to remove myself from that experience.concentrate on what it is you are talking about, what influences these thoughts? Where do they come from?
Wait, that’s WHAT, not where.
The short answer to where this ‘faker’ thoughts come from is that I don’t know. If I were to pretend I’m a neuroscientist, i’d say something about how a past experience got somehow encoded into the structure of my brain. Some current stimulation triggers the area where the past experience is stored, and my body reacts to the replay of that situation as if it were actually happening now, when in fact it’s not.
But WHERE the original unpleasant stimulation came from seems to be .. nowhere. or i made it up. a story. My quote about feeling like a faker... after I read all the responses of awakening with my eyes and processed the symbols with my brain and engaged in the mystery of communication, i felt like i didnt get it. i felt disappointment. i felt like i wanted to get it. I felt like a bratty 2-yr old who didn’t get the candy he wanted. But none of those feelings seem to have been directly caused by anything that I directly read on this website or otherwise experienced with my senses right now.
noted. Its nice to have this feedback.Ok, good , NOWWW we are getting focused, this is what the entire thread should be about.fuck me, im still not answering. I’ve never been brave enough to look at it.What is the self in your experience right now?
ok, deep breath. lets see,... .
ive never really looked at this before, other than a brief “handwave / shrug” that goes something like : “well, i’m an eternal soul injected into this body, ill have any number of experiences, then this body will die and the soul will go on to do whatever it does”. So this question seems almost pointless .. Mark is the eternal soul... well, until your next question..Preferences are bodily responses to stimulants, so where does Mark start and end in this?Maybe it’s my preferences.. but no, those can change over time -- the Mark at age 8 liked different things that the mark at at 43 -- and i dont feel like that alters who I believe “i am”
i had a bodily reaction to reading that question. a holding of my breath, a tensing, what ive come to think of as a desire to NOT LOOK THERE. (lol, “these are not the droids you are looking for”...)Lets stop assuming there is something to have all these features, what if there is nothing there at all?
ok
what if there is nothing there.. we’re proposing the thing i thought was there (the soul that is mark), isnt there. then i immediately want to know what is. i have this immediate belief that *something* needs to be there. It’s very hard to sit with the idea that NOTHING is there... im noticing that i keep trying to plug something in there so that the Mark can still exist.
why does anything have to be there? trees dont seem to have anything “there” . or maybe they do and we don’t know how to detect / experience it. But that answer seems like a desperate spin-doctor attempt to put the soul back in there .. “gee, maybe there’s no soul? eeek.. lets say it’s something else that we dont have a name for.. wait, isnt that the same thing as soul... er.. yes. eeek” round in circles again..
exploring the resistance here.
im not worried about being “soul-less” as in a “soul-less serial killer” or something of that sort. It feels very very strange that if nothing is there, who’s doing stuff? who’s responsible for the very real actions that take place. who makes the choices?
from what ive read here, it seems that the “correct” answer is that “no one” or “the universe” or “the void” or “god” is there. that’s not felt tho, that’s still a thought.
yes, ive had a christmas feeling, or halloween, or more frequently, birthday feelings. Sometimes those feeling are environmental (someone taking me out to dinner to celebrate can give me a “birthday feeling”), but I grant that those types of feelings can arise from mere thought. Emotions can too tho, right? I can remember a pleasant experience and, to some extent, feel good again, right?Remember a belief doesnt need anything real to make it FEEL real.So do i believe “self” is a “soul”? I think that’s the strong foundation from which im operating.. layers and layers of unquestioned assumptions there. In fact, there’s built in dogma saying that the soul is a mystery and requires faith .. don’t bother trying to know or understand it.
Ever get a christmas feeling? Or any other similar occasion? Are those feelings based on anything more than concept generated by language?
This almost slipped by me. I’m not sure I’d ever really considered that a belief can give rise to something that FEELs real, but has no outward / sensational / preceptual reality. Tho I sorta want to argue that emotions are “real” sensations right? i was gonna say “why do I care if an emotion comes from an external or internal source?”. I guess i do care tho.. tho i cant really come up with a convincing argument.. feels thoughty and side-tracky tho..Remember a belief doesnt need anything real to make it FEEL real.
back to your point. You’re saying my “soul” feels real because it’s simply a belief that I have, and beliefs can give rise to real feelings? or make it feel real (Im not sure if there is a distinction between “real feelings” and “feel real”).
back to your point again.. so if I stop believing in my soul, it’ll stop feeling real? the santa-clause analogy springs to mind here... how do I disbelieve something like that tho? oh wait, that’s next... you're 10 steps ahead of me...
I think it sits right moreso than the idea of a self in control because … well .. i dunno .. dang, something else ive never looked at.Exactly, its not happening TO anything, Why does that sit right moreso than the idea of a self controlling the body?My experiences over the last few years with some sort of zen-style mediation have led me to see that maybe I’m not a soul, at least in the way I’d been thinking of it -- as a “spark” embedded in the mind of this body. The endless parade of thought, the observer of thought, the experiencing just happening.. that really seems right to me somehow.
the idea of a self in control just seems kinda silly . impossible.. how could anything exert that much control? im flabergasted at the amount of stuff going on to keep this body alive -- heart beating, cells growing, synapses firing, bacterial and viral warfare, digestion.. For something to be “in charge” of the entire meat experience + thoughts + emotions + decisions + guidance + memory .. seems beyond my understanding. if what I think of as “me” had to pay attention and control all that, i’d surely drop dead or come to some ruinous end.
sounds like i came to the right place.By looking at your direct reality , right now, all the time, and checking is that bolded statement actually true.how do i go from my years of unquestioned belief in “myself as a soul” , to my “hurm, zen-no-thought maybe im not my thoughgts” to “i dont exist, i never did, a tool (my mind) has hijacked experiencing the world”
and your question above about souls and belief led me to the same place .. how do i disbelieve something that I believe? ... i honestly dont remember how i disbelieved santa, tho i do remember holding on to it long past my peers..
Well, then it seems ive put the cart before the horse. I’ve always been a dismantler of my self, and had always thought it was quite exhaustive, but there’s always that one last assumption you just can’t see until someone else points it out.Well then, you seem to have a clear idea of what this is about so!! Good stuff, although, something I would have liked to have known is that all the dismantling only STARTS after realizing there is no self.I want something better. ... .. i imagine it would be wonderful to release myself from this suffering. If seeing that I don’t exist can help me with that, then I’d love to to see that i dont exist.
dang another huge post.
im going to to try and test the statement i wrote and that you highlighted and that you repeatedly led me to:
hurm, that seems like your experiment.. :)By looking at your direct reality , right now, all the time, and checking is that bolded statement actually true.how do i go from my years of unquestioned belief in “myself as a soul” , to my “hurm, zen-no-thought maybe im not my thoughts” to “i dont exist, i never did, a tool (my mind) has hijacked experiencing the world”
ok, now im laughing. sounds like a good stopping place.
-mark (er, ya, whatever)
Re: Tak
Ok, my bad, oops :) the way I phrased that made me look like I was asking a different question, when I wrotethat’s a slippery question....Which probably means my mind.
when I attempt to surrender, i look for a sensation of clenching or tightness. Ive found if i breathe or pay attention to that area, some of that sensation fades, which usually feels good.
...
I meant , what is it that trying to surrender? What self is trying to surrender, i.e. outside of the body, what is it that wants to see this?what literally in your direct experience is attempting to surrender?
Ok, so you wrote a few paragraphs about Mark's this and Mark's that, but still made an assumption of that there is something that IS Mark, instead of making that assumption, look in your reality to see what actually is this "Mark", when does it start? What I mean by that is, suppose you are about to enjoy something, a bit of food, music , whatever, where does this assumption of Mark come into it? When does it begin and when does it end?
When i speak of Mark and its talents, prefs, etc. I’m referring to the gifts of mind and body available to Mark. At a trivial level, Mark’s body doesn’t enjoy walnuts, but enjoys the taste of chocolate. Mark’s body seems to be agile ..... based on .. a story about something that hasn’t happened or has already happened.
Ok , good , this is good focused looking, so you've established that this stuff arises and yet there is no you in control of it, keep looking at that, so answer this as if your life depended on you telling the truth, what actually influences any thoughts or beliefs that arise in your head?ok - what is it that i am talking about? i’m talking about feeling like a faker. Concentrating on that feeling. the influence on these thoughts of being a faker seems to be an expectation of future judgement or failure from other people. Where do those thoughts come from? -- i dont see the origin .. they arise in my mind very quickly and w/o thought or “verbal” form .. it’s more like a feeling that triggers some sort of reaction from my body .. unease, discomfort, a desire to remove myself from that experience.concentrate on what it is you are talking about, what influences these thoughts? Where do they come from?
Ok you already answered it here. Exactly, so is there an influence from anything else? What I mean by that is , is there any self influencing this stuff?Wait, that’s WHAT, not where.
The short answer to where this ‘faker’ thoughts come from is that I don’t know. If I were to pretend I’m a neuroscientist, i’d say something about how a past experience got somehow encoded into the structure of my brain. Some current stimulation triggers the area where the past experience is stored, and my body reacts to the replay of that situation as if it were actually happening now, when in fact it’s not.
understandable, assuming something exists outside of thought your whole life, and then having that assumption addressed can be somewhat scary.i had a bodily reaction to reading that question. a holding of my breath, a tensing, what ive come to think of as a desire to NOT LOOK THERE. (lol, “these are not the droids you are looking for”...)
You dont have to plug in a replacement for Santa when you find out he was never there, why plug a replacement for any other fictional thought, like the self.ok
what if there is nothing there.. we’re proposing the thing i thought was there (the soul that is mark), isnt there. then i immediately want to know what is. i have this immediate belief that *something* needs to be there. It’s very hard to sit with the idea that NOTHING is there... im noticing that i keep trying to plug something in there so that the Mark can still exist.
why does anything have to be there? trees dont seem to have anything “there” .
nice, this is what we should be focusing on, only with the body, not a tree
again some nice honesty here, keep looking, theres nothing there at all, just like there was never a Santa.or maybe they do and we don’t know how to detect / experience it. But that answer seems like a desperate spin-doctor attempt to put the soul back in there .. “gee, maybe there’s no soul? eeek.. lets say it’s something else that we dont have a name for.. wait, isnt that the same thing as soul... er.. yes. eeek” round in circles again..
exploring the resistance here.
Well , how about you answer that now!! :) So you've got a human taking an action, you also have a fly taking an action, a fly barely thinks (lets assume anyway), it just carries out actions, a human creates a thought, and a belief that there is a "Mark" , a sense of "you" responsible for all that. But WHAT is that?im not worried about being “soul-less” as in a “soul-less serial killer” or something of that sort. It feels very very strange that if nothing is there, who’s doing stuff? who’s responsible for the very real actions that take place. who makes the choices?
Ok, lets drop the whole God, universe, void stuff, worry about that another time, what we want to see here is that actions certainly do not need a thought of a self for them to be always carried out.from what ive read here, it seems that the “correct” answer is that “no one” or “the universe” or “the void” or “god” is there. that’s not felt tho, that’s still a thought.
Literally try it, it was in one of my instructions, how many times in your day do you do something without even realizing it, even the act of walking, there is barely an awareness of the exact movement of your legs, you can be thinking about something entirely different , yet walking still happens.
Ok, we need to simplify this , and keep at no self, im not saying your emotions and feelings are not real, leave them completely out of this, what Im saying is, the sense of self is simply a belief, a thought, an idea, yet it feels real. But examine that feeling , and you'll probably struggle to find where and what it actually is. Just like what would happen if you examined a christmas feeling.This almost slipped by me. I’m not sure I’d ever really considered that a belief can give rise to something that FEELs real, but has no outward / sensational / preceptual reality. Tho I sorta want to argue that emotions are “real” sensations right? i was gonna say “why do I care if an emotion comes from an external or internal source?”. I guess i do care tho.. tho i cant really come up with a convincing argument.. feels thoughty and side-tracky tho..
back to your point. You’re saying my “soul” feels real because it’s simply a belief that I have, and beliefs can give rise to real feelings? or make it feel real (Im not sure if there is a distinction between “real feelings” and “feel real”).
back to your point again.. so if I stop believing in my soul, it’ll stop feeling real? the santa-clause analogy springs to mind here... how do I disbelieve something like that tho?
By looking at reality and seeing it was always the case.
nice , the bold bit highlights the absurdity of the assumption of "you", it would actually be simply impossible to keep that up all day every day, interesting , Ive never looked at it like that before (Im going to add that to my list of pointers), Now remember, this isnt about you simply answer the right things here, really dig deep in your own experience and test what you are actually saying herethe idea of a self in control just seems kinda silly ......if what I think of as “me” had to pay attention and control all that, i’d surely drop dead or come to some ruinous end.
I guess santa is a bit of an easier one because its so ridiculously illogical and only comes around once a year, so this one you are going to have to work harder at, and look, as much as you can.sounds like i came to the right place.
and your question above about souls and belief led me to the same place .. how do i disbelieve something that I believe? ... i honestly dont remember how i disbelieved santa, tho i do remember holding on to it long past my peers..
yet there is nothing even to dismantle.Well, then it seems ive put the cart before the horse. I’ve always been a dismantler of my self,
Re: Tak
Post 3 - Fri 18 May 2012
pm
Thanks for sticking with me and keeping the exploration going.
Im not sure i get where you’re pointing with this one.
I guess I’m trying to say is that I have this thought (there’s a warning flag.. “a thought”) that realizes I dont have to be behaving this way, experiencing things this way, living this way. The thought’s reasoning is that if there’s nothing to “do”, then the only thing left to “do” is give up trying to control how things happen and let them happen , then ..
oh wait.
The thought itself arises from this tool of a mind. lol
i guess there’s no real point in listening to a thought from my mind about how to control or not control things, especially if ..
if the mind itself ..
f*ck. lol
so here “I” am, with this marvelous “mind” tool, that’s spewing all these thoughts and the majority of them are just streaming noise, but occasionally this fiction of a self listens to it’s own noise.
All sorts of random teachings point to the fact that all those thoughts are being generated w/o a thinker, and i’ve finally felt fairly comfortable with that concept after awhile. but...
Why did I never think to realize that the generator of the all the noise is the same thing as the listener to all the noise. wtf. It’s a closed loop, garbage in, garbage out, there’s no point in either side of that, the generation or the listening. /sigh
ok, so now the “who’s listening?” makes sense. The same f*ckin thing that’s talking is listening. What a waste of time and energy.
music is being played, it stimulates my ears and there’s a bodily sensation in my ears and my meat-brain .. chemicals being released, etc. That should be it. I have no idea why Ive always felt the need to label and assign “mark likes this”. well, Its a totally useful thought expression and appropriate if there’s someone else with whom i want to communicate my preferences to .. it doesnt need to imply anything whatsoever about there being a “me” or “mark” to enjoy it and take note of it and natter on to itself about having enjoyed it as well as listening to itself say that it enjoyed it.
lol. two stupid sock puppets, one talking, one listening. Or maybe those two muppets from the muppet show (dating myself here) in the balcony kabitzing about everything. hah, that’s a ridiculous way to imagine myself. How will i ever take myself seriously again?
how did i ever miss that?
Hey, now the “look behind you” kinda makes sense. If i started out believing the mind-as-generator-of-thoughts as myself... then somehow popped awareness “out” of that mind and looked at it in it’s ridiculousness.. The “self” feeling snuck out and took up residence in the “mind-as-listener/observer”. So I could gaze down at the nattering mind, never noticing that I’d set up the “self” in the mind that’s listening and observing. lol. “look behind you” indeed, it’s the same thing. ok, maybe not my clearest analogy, but..
That struck me funny and right on. People talk about it all the time.. zoning out .. going on auto-pilot, etc. I just think they never really question it or bother to look at it.
So, earlier today, I decided to go into the kitchen and get a drink, but found myself emptying the dryer as well. There i was with a half-filled basket of clothes. Of course I remembered the chain of actions that led to me with my hand in the dryer and thinking these thought. But I’d assumed I’d made a choice to do that, or noticed the dryer not making noise and decided to empty it. But i could find no evidence of having made that decision.. it all either came in afterwards “I *must* have noticed the task, I *must* have decided to do it, and then I must have acted on that decision and started unloading clothes... unconscious or just happening? the simplier answer is that its just happening. I remember thinking.. “oh, so this is what that guy was talking about..”
Now, after having spent the last 2 hours (geez) on the other questions (mostly that first one), my response to my own reply is : "I just am? no, that's not it, it's just that 'I'm just not'". It seems weird that I wrote that answer two hours ago and it seems odd now. Now it seems clearly to have still been written from the point of view of a thought that thought it was Mark observing mark’s no-self mind-as-generator. lol, hows that for a sentence? Lol, it’s not that “i just am”, but more like , well, that “i just am” is weird “line noise” that has no bearing on anything real.
whoa. just re-read my post.
night.
pm
Thanks for sticking with me and keeping the exploration going.
i agree, surrender is silly topic.I meant , what is it that trying to surrender? What self is trying to surrender, i.e. outside of the body, what is it that wants to see this?
Im not sure i get where you’re pointing with this one.
I guess I’m trying to say is that I have this thought (there’s a warning flag.. “a thought”) that realizes I dont have to be behaving this way, experiencing things this way, living this way. The thought’s reasoning is that if there’s nothing to “do”, then the only thing left to “do” is give up trying to control how things happen and let them happen , then ..
oh wait.
The thought itself arises from this tool of a mind. lol
i guess there’s no real point in listening to a thought from my mind about how to control or not control things, especially if ..
if the mind itself ..
f*ck. lol
so here “I” am, with this marvelous “mind” tool, that’s spewing all these thoughts and the majority of them are just streaming noise, but occasionally this fiction of a self listens to it’s own noise.
All sorts of random teachings point to the fact that all those thoughts are being generated w/o a thinker, and i’ve finally felt fairly comfortable with that concept after awhile. but...
Why did I never think to realize that the generator of the all the noise is the same thing as the listener to all the noise. wtf. It’s a closed loop, garbage in, garbage out, there’s no point in either side of that, the generation or the listening. /sigh
ok, so now the “who’s listening?” makes sense. The same f*ckin thing that’s talking is listening. What a waste of time and energy.
Heh, I was going to anwer that it comes up “afterwards”, but well... Now it sees that when does it begin and when does it end? is pointing to the stupid feedback loop..
Ok, so you wrote a few paragraphs about Mark's this and Mark's that, but still made an assumption of that there is something that IS Mark, instead of making that assumption, look in your reality to see what actually is this "Mark", when does it start? What I mean by that is, suppose you are about to enjoy something, a bit of food, music , whatever, where does this assumption of Mark come into it? When does it begin and when does it end?
music is being played, it stimulates my ears and there’s a bodily sensation in my ears and my meat-brain .. chemicals being released, etc. That should be it. I have no idea why Ive always felt the need to label and assign “mark likes this”. well, Its a totally useful thought expression and appropriate if there’s someone else with whom i want to communicate my preferences to .. it doesnt need to imply anything whatsoever about there being a “me” or “mark” to enjoy it and take note of it and natter on to itself about having enjoyed it as well as listening to itself say that it enjoyed it.
lol. two stupid sock puppets, one talking, one listening. Or maybe those two muppets from the muppet show (dating myself here) in the balcony kabitzing about everything. hah, that’s a ridiculous way to imagine myself. How will i ever take myself seriously again?
No, heh. Just the mind nattering and mind listening. Sometimes the mind-as-generator-of-thought feels like it’s “mark”, sometimes the mind-as-listener-observer feels like it’s “mark”. I’d been so focused on trying to see the mind-as-generator as a fiction that I didn’t notice the mind-as-listener/observer. I just copy-pasted the fake thing and whoosh .. the “self” concept set up shop there behind the point of view.. back to observing and nattering and listening, just like the other thing.Ok , good , so you've established that this stuff arises and yet there is no you in control of it, keep looking at that, so answer this as if your life depended on you telling the truth, what actually influences any thoughts or beliefs that arise in your head?Ok you already answered it here. Exactly, so is there an influence from anything else? What I mean by that is , is there any self influencing this stuff?Wait, that’s WHAT, not where.
The short answer to where this ‘faker’ thoughts come from is that I don’t know. If I were to pretend I’m a neuroscientist, i’d say something about how a past experience got somehow encoded into the structure of my brain. Some current stimulation triggers the area where the past experience is stored, and my body reacts to the replay of that situation as if it were actually happening now, when in fact it’s not.
how did i ever miss that?
Hey, now the “look behind you” kinda makes sense. If i started out believing the mind-as-generator-of-thoughts as myself... then somehow popped awareness “out” of that mind and looked at it in it’s ridiculousness.. The “self” feeling snuck out and took up residence in the “mind-as-listener/observer”. So I could gaze down at the nattering mind, never noticing that I’d set up the “self” in the mind that’s listening and observing. lol. “look behind you” indeed, it’s the same thing. ok, maybe not my clearest analogy, but..
indeed. But there was this great resistance to the idea of nothing there, because i “felt” something. … . “i” was “witnessing” all this activity, it just never occurred to me that the “i” that was “witnessing” was the same fiction that it was supposed to be watching.You dont have to plug in a replacement for Santa when you find out he was never there, why plug a replacement for any other fictional thought, like the self.
what if there is nothing there.. we’re proposing the thing i thought was there (the soul that is mark), isnt there. then i immediately want to know what is. i have this immediate belief that *something* needs to be there. It’s very hard to sit with the idea that NOTHING is there... im noticing that i keep trying to plug something in there so that the Mark can still exist.
hurm, i think its the same answer. it’s just another thought or concept. It feels like “backfill”. its just more of the mind-tool trying to be useful and narrate something that has already happened or predict something that hasnt happened yet.Well , how about you answer that now!! :) So you've got a human taking an action, you also have a fly taking an action, a fly barely thinks (lets assume anyway), it just carries out actions, a human creates a thought, and a belief that there is a "Mark" , a sense of "you" responsible for all that. But WHAT is that?
It feels very very strange that if nothing is there, who’s doing stuff? who’s responsible for the very real actions that take place. who makes the choices?
happens to me all the friggin time. I read the following quote somewhere else on this forum a few days ago: “ For instance I feel like I decided to write this message, but as I was writing I suddenly decided to get some coffee. I feel like I made a choice, but I could not tell you when, how, or why.”
what we want to see here is that actions certainly do not need a thought of a self for them to be always carried out.
Literally try it, it was in one of my instructions, how many times in your day do you do something without even realizing it, even the act of walking, there is barely an awareness of the exact movement of your legs, you can be thinking about something entirely different , yet walking still happens.
That struck me funny and right on. People talk about it all the time.. zoning out .. going on auto-pilot, etc. I just think they never really question it or bother to look at it.
So, earlier today, I decided to go into the kitchen and get a drink, but found myself emptying the dryer as well. There i was with a half-filled basket of clothes. Of course I remembered the chain of actions that led to me with my hand in the dryer and thinking these thought. But I’d assumed I’d made a choice to do that, or noticed the dryer not making noise and decided to empty it. But i could find no evidence of having made that decision.. it all either came in afterwards “I *must* have noticed the task, I *must* have decided to do it, and then I must have acted on that decision and started unloading clothes... unconscious or just happening? the simplier answer is that its just happening. I remember thinking.. “oh, so this is what that guy was talking about..”
im definately going to test this. I’m a little worried that Im just so excited about this process that I’m jumping at fools gold here, but well, it really does feel sorta ridiculous now. It’ll be fun to see how this plays out in the light of day amongst other people.nice , the bold bit highlights the absurdity of the assumption of "you", it would actually be simply impossible to keep that up all day every day, interesting , Ive never looked at it like that before (Im going to add that to my list of pointers), Now remember, this isnt about you simply answer the right things here, really dig deep in your own experience and test what you are actually saying herethe idea of a self in control just seems kinda silly ......if what I think of as “me” had to pay attention and control all that, i’d surely drop dead or come to some ruinous end.
ha. So I had cut-n-pasted this post into a google-doc to do my writing and editting. For some reason, I’d already had my “answer” to your quote here as the first thing Id written: here it was: “I guess I meant that i considered myself a seeker, but that’s even a trap, a label, a story about who I am. Guess that has to go too. I just am.”yet there is nothing even to dismantle.Well, then it seems ive put the cart before the horse. I’ve always been a dismantler of my self,
Now, after having spent the last 2 hours (geez) on the other questions (mostly that first one), my response to my own reply is : "I just am? no, that's not it, it's just that 'I'm just not'". It seems weird that I wrote that answer two hours ago and it seems odd now. Now it seems clearly to have still been written from the point of view of a thought that thought it was Mark observing mark’s no-self mind-as-generator. lol, hows that for a sentence? Lol, it’s not that “i just am”, but more like , well, that “i just am” is weird “line noise” that has no bearing on anything real.
whoa. just re-read my post.
night.
Re: Tak
But here is the assumption of something real, how can a fiction of something listen to something, thats like saying that the red dragon I just made up in my head is listening to my thoughts.so here “I” am, with this marvelous “mind” tool, that’s spewing all these thoughts and the majority of them are just streaming noise, but occasionally this fiction of a self listens to it’s own noise.
No generator, or no listener, its just stuff that happens. That may sound lazy and general, but this is the level that you need to look at in terms of there being no you.Why did I never think to realize that the generator of the all the noise is the same thing as the listener to all the noise. wtf. It’s a closed loop, garbage in, garbage out, there’s no point in either side of that, the generation or the listening. /sigh
Exactly, nice, nothing, zilch, keep the focus in this direction, no where else.
music is being played, it stimulates my ears and there’s a bodily sensation in my ears and my meat-brain .. chemicals being released, etc. That should be it. I have no idea why Ive always felt the need to label and assign “mark likes this”. well, Its a totally useful thought expression and appropriate if there’s someone else with whom i want to communicate my preferences to .. it doesnt need to imply anything whatsoever about there being a “me” or “mark” to enjoy it and take note of it and natter on to itself about having enjoyed it as well as listening to itself say that it enjoyed it.
Id try and challenge the idea that the "mind" is any form of generator or listener, this is an attempt to plug a hole where you assume "you" are, but in reality there is nothing there, so dig even deeper, yea sure, the phenomenon of thought occurs, but nothing owns it , generates it or listens to it, and if it feels like that IS happening, well then , thats just another thought.No, heh. Just the mind nattering and mind listening. Sometimes the mind-as-generator-of-thought feels like it’s “mark”, sometimes the mind-as-listener-observer feels like it’s “mark”. I’d been so focused on trying to see the mind-as-generator as a fiction that I didn’t notice the mind-as-listener/observer. I just copy-pasted the fake thing and whoosh .. the “self” concept set up shop there behind the point of view.. back to observing and nattering and listening, just like the other thing.
how did i ever miss that?
yup, just a stream of thoughts really.hurm, i think its the same answer. it’s just another thought or concept. It feels like “backfill”. its just more of the mind-tool trying to be useful and narrate something that has already happened or predict something that hasnt happened yet.
exactly , I would 95% of the actions in your life are done without noticing, and the other 5% are believed to be done by "Mark", only simply because you are thinking about doing it.That struck me funny and right on. People talk about it all the time.. zoning out .. going on auto-pilot, etc. I just think they never really question it or bother to look at it.
Cool, keep doing this shit, non stop, really focus on the fact that there is no you involved in any of it, despite strong the assumption is.So, earlier today, I decided to go into the kitchen and get a drink, but found myself emptying the dryer as well. There i was with a half-filled basket of clothes. Of course I remembered the chain of actions that led to me with my hand in the dryer and thinking these thought. But I’d assumed I’d made a choice to do that, or noticed the dryer not making noise and decided to empty it. But i could find no evidence of having made that decision.. it all either came in afterwards “I *must* have noticed the task, I *must* have decided to do it, and then I must have acted on that decision and started unloading clothes... unconscious or just happening? the simplier answer is that its just happening. I remember thinking.. “oh, so this is what that guy was talking about..”
Now, after having spent the last 2 hours (geez) on the other questions (mostly that first one), my response to my own reply is : "I just am? no, that's not it, it's just that 'I'm just not'". It seems weird that I wrote that answer two hours ago and it seems odd now. Now it seems clearly to have still been written from the point of view of a thought that thought it was Mark observing mark’s no-self mind-as-generator. lol, hows that for a sentence? Lol, it’s not that “i just am”, but more like , well, that “i just am” is weird “line noise” that has no bearing on anything real.
ok, cool, remember though, this isnt about being to explain this conceptually, or working on this thread, this is about your direct experience with reality, this thread should only be serving as a background assistance to your core looking.
"Im just not"..."I just am"..."There is no me"...."there is a me"...."I am me"...ALL thoughts, whats generating those thoughts?
Re: Tak
Post 4 - Sun 20 May 2012
“red dragon listening to my thoughts” --- that’s exactly what hit me so hard. Originally I assumed I/self was the thinker of thoughts. Then, via assorted meditation stuff, I become comfortable with the idea that i was not those thoughts. Then maybe I/self was something outside the thoughts, lets call it a listener / observer of the thoughts. Now I feel like i’ve seen that this listener is the same friggin thing (ficticious) as the thinker-of-thoughts. Leaving no thinker, no listener, just thoughts doing their thing -- solving puzzles, kicking off emotions, narrating endlessly, etc.
Where am “I” in this process? It’s tempting to say I’m something outside the thinker-listener loop, but the simplier answer is that there’s nothing more to it than the thinker-listener being just a part of the system that comes with being a human.
Tho I do like your imaginary red dragon eavesdropper image.
What’s generating them? hurm. I don’t know. nothing important. If I had to try and explain it.. I guess i’d created this story about my brain generating thoughts in some mysterious way, much like my lungs generate my breath (tho I think i understand breath physics). The origin of thoughts isn’t the point. The listening to thoughts isn’t the point. it seems to be just a human process . the cost of having a mind. The trick is not to confuse the mind (and it’s thoughts) with reality.
refocusing -- thoughts are happening all the time. Unless they’re useful and related to something real and immediate (holy crap, i should turn off the stove before leaving the house), i’m content to let them just stream along.
I’m still reacting to some of the thoughts tho. but at times I can catch myself as I react to a thought instead of reacting to something real. Feels a bit like progress .. maybe. I still have to be reminded or focus my attention before I remember that those thoughts arent ‘mark’, nor is mark the listener.
does reactivity to thoughts immediately drop or does it fade .. after it really hits you / you see through it?
I agree. i’m afraid i didnt communicate very clearly, or are you saying Im off base.But here is the assumption of something real, how can a fiction of something listen to something, thats like saying that the red dragon I just made up in my head is listening to my thoughts.so here “I” am, with this marvelous “mind” tool, that’s spewing all these thoughts and the majority of them are just streaming noise, but occasionally this fiction of a self listens to it’s own noise.
No generator, or no listener, its just stuff that happens. That may sound lazy and general, but this is the level that you need to look at in terms of there being no you.
“red dragon listening to my thoughts” --- that’s exactly what hit me so hard. Originally I assumed I/self was the thinker of thoughts. Then, via assorted meditation stuff, I become comfortable with the idea that i was not those thoughts. Then maybe I/self was something outside the thoughts, lets call it a listener / observer of the thoughts. Now I feel like i’ve seen that this listener is the same friggin thing (ficticious) as the thinker-of-thoughts. Leaving no thinker, no listener, just thoughts doing their thing -- solving puzzles, kicking off emotions, narrating endlessly, etc.
Where am “I” in this process? It’s tempting to say I’m something outside the thinker-listener loop, but the simplier answer is that there’s nothing more to it than the thinker-listener being just a part of the system that comes with being a human.
Tho I do like your imaginary red dragon eavesdropper image.
yes. I think im agreeing. im coming at this from the angle that thoughts are a natural part of being human, but there is no reason to elevate them into the level of a “self” (like i’d done before) just because they’re thoughts. Just like my breath in and out is a real and natural part of being human, but I dont consider my breath to be “Mark”. Nor should i consider anything about my thoughts to be “mark”.Id try and challenge the idea that the "mind" is any form of generator or listener, this is an attempt to plug a hole where you assume "you" are, but in reality there is nothing there, so dig even deeper, yea sure, the phenomenon of thought occurs, but nothing owns it , generates it or listens to it, and if it feels like that IS happening, well then , thats just another thought.
/nodCool, keep doing this shit, non stop, really focus on the fact that there is no you involved in any of it, despite strong the assumption is.
thanks for the reminder, it’s easy to focus on this as an end-of-day study session.. i need to bring it into play throughout.ok, cool, remember though, this isnt about being to explain this conceptually, or working on this thread, this is about your direct experience with reality, this thread should only be serving as a background assistance to your core looking.
ya, all thoughts."Im just not"..."I just am"..."There is no me"...."there is a me"...."I am me"...ALL thoughts, whats generating those thoughts?
What’s generating them? hurm. I don’t know. nothing important. If I had to try and explain it.. I guess i’d created this story about my brain generating thoughts in some mysterious way, much like my lungs generate my breath (tho I think i understand breath physics). The origin of thoughts isn’t the point. The listening to thoughts isn’t the point. it seems to be just a human process . the cost of having a mind. The trick is not to confuse the mind (and it’s thoughts) with reality.
refocusing -- thoughts are happening all the time. Unless they’re useful and related to something real and immediate (holy crap, i should turn off the stove before leaving the house), i’m content to let them just stream along.
I’m still reacting to some of the thoughts tho. but at times I can catch myself as I react to a thought instead of reacting to something real. Feels a bit like progress .. maybe. I still have to be reminded or focus my attention before I remember that those thoughts arent ‘mark’, nor is mark the listener.
does reactivity to thoughts immediately drop or does it fade .. after it really hits you / you see through it?
Re: Tak
exactlyI agree. i’m afraid i didnt communicate very clearly, or are you saying Im off base.
“red dragon listening to my thoughts” --- that’s exactly what hit me so hard. Originally I assumed I/self was the thinker of thoughts. Then, via assorted meditation stuff, I become comfortable with the idea that i was not those thoughts. Then maybe I/self was something outside the thoughts, lets call it a listener / observer of the thoughts. Now I feel like i’ve seen that this listener is the same friggin thing (ficticious) as the thinker-of-thoughts. Leaving no thinker, no listener, just thoughts doing their thing -- solving puzzles, kicking off emotions, narrating endlessly, etc.
ok, so is this the case in your honest direct experience?Where am “I” in this process? It’s tempting to say I’m something outside the thinker-listener loop, but the simplier answer is that there’s nothing more to it than the thinker-listener being just a part of the system that comes with being a human.
ok this is good, and very true, however direct honest focus is needed , and honest reporting, because whether this is experienced or not, we can say this stuff either way.yes. I think im agreeing. im coming at this from the angle that thoughts are a natural part of being human, but there is no reason to elevate them into the level of a “self” (like i’d done before) just because they’re thoughts. Just like my breath in and out is a real and natural part of being human, but I dont consider my breath to be “Mark”. Nor should i consider anything about my thoughts to be “mark”.
So what IS "mark" if you shouldnt consider your thoughts to be mark?
big time, keep the momentum, every single part of your life there is an opportunity to see there is no self, be it in conversation, during movements, in simply viewing the world in front of you, everything.thanks for the reminder, it’s easy to focus on this as an end-of-day study session.. i need to bring it into play throughout.
ok this is all fine, but this isnt a meditation session, or a school of practice, this is about one thing only , and thats question where the self comes into this. So you talk of being content to let thoughts stream along. If thats the case, whats trying to be liberated from them?What’s generating them? hurm. I don’t know. nothing important. If I had to try and explain it.. I guess i’d created this story about my brain generating thoughts in some mysterious way, much like my lungs generate my breath (tho I think i understand breath physics). The origin of thoughts isn’t the point. The listening to thoughts isn’t the point. it seems to be just a human process . the cost of having a mind. The trick is not to confuse the mind (and it’s thoughts) with reality.
refocusing -- thoughts are happening all the time. Unless they’re useful and related to something real and immediate (holy crap, i should turn off the stove before leaving the house), i’m content to let them just stream along.
Ok, maybe its just a semantics thing, but whenever I see you mention listener = generator thing etc, I get the impression you are allowing that to be "you", now I know you described it above, but what is actually listening to thoughts?I’m still reacting to some of the thoughts tho. but at times I can catch myself as I react to a thought instead of reacting to something real. Feels a bit like progress .. maybe. I still have to be reminded or focus my attention before I remember that those thoughts arent ‘mark’, nor is mark the listener.
I guess this is a better question for after you see it, the answer is that it varies , but either way I think if you are asking this question, then you havent seen through it, I could be very wrong, ive been wrong before and people have had to elaborate, but I get the impression that you may be close but have to drop all fear and really dig at this thing.does reactivity to thoughts immediately drop or does it fade .. after it really hits you / you see through it?
For what its worth, the first question I asked when getting into this was "Do you 100% know you cracked it? cause I think I did!!" , but I hadnt cracked it yet, was close though. I just kept pushing.
Remember though, dont get hung up on what it will be like, get hung up on looking right now to see is there a self.
Another question, what is it that wants to be liberated?
Re: Tak
For about 3 hours the other night it was. It felt really strange and sorta giddy. When I woke up the next morning, things were back to "normal".ok, so is this the case in your honest direct experience?there’s nothing more to it than the thinker-listener being just a part of the system that comes with being a human.
[edit: venting frustration ahead. i considered deleting, but... ]ok this is good, and very true, however direct honest focus is needed , and honest reporting, because whether this is experienced or not, we can say this stuff either way. So what IS "mark" if you shouldnt consider your thoughts to be mark?
so slippery and so very frustrating.
intellectually i suppose 'mark' is some sort of expression of blah blah blah being embodied in this physical form.
right now, im experiencing some pissed off thoughts. trying to recognize that they're just thoughts, but the reactivity has already engaged and now im feeling it emotionally. so, out they come:
I think what frustrates me most is the constant instruction to look. I don't know that i know how to "look" like I'm being asking, even after reading your whole experiment thread. I feel like I'm asking me to do something ive never done before (just look) and using a word (look) that i thought meant something else as my guide to tell me how to do it. (edit: hurm, this reads like my ego is defending itself here.. sigh.)
and shaking the thought that there's some part of me (or other people) "in charge" about all the non-auto-pilot stuff is so pervasive that it seems like im cracked to even consider it.
This afternoon i sat in a conference room and watched a room full of people argue their own points and propose things and just bather on to "have been heard" and give voice to their ego. it seemed like alot of pointless blather from people's self-defensive ego/minds. But I'm sure they all feel like they're in charge and felt the need to defend their pet projects and ideas. I had a hard time looking at that mess. i tried to look at it as "all this arguing is just stuff happening, just like trees growing .. people arguing and defending their ego". i guess that's just an unpleasant moment happening.
[edit: irony of ironies, this answer/section is a perfect mirror of me doing what I observed my angry room of ego-people doing.. /sigh ]
the answer that keeps wanting to pop out is an angry / petulant, "dammit, i don't know what's trying to be liberated from thoughts". whaa. i havent had any direct experience of anything other than paying attention to my thoughts ("normal" mode of being) or not paying attention (autopilot or meditation) to them. what else is there?ok this is all fine, but this isnt a meditation session, or a school of practice, this is about one thing only , and thats question where the self comes into this. So you talk of being content to let thoughts stream along. If thats the case, whats trying to be liberated from them?
something's obviously trying to be liberated or i'd be going to sleep right now.
If you're saying the mind is thinking thoughts, and triggering the emotion of discontent (at the thought of not being liberated), then f*ck me, that's back to square one, cause we already agree'd that i shouldn't mind/react to the thoughts im having. But I do.
bah.
refocus -- So having thoughts about trying to be liberated are just more thoughts like other pointless thoughts. they should just burble along like "la dee da" until something tied to functional control of the real world floats thru. wrote it, don't really feel it in regard to a certain type of thoughts. I'm fine with ignoring the pointless narration thoughts and staying in the world by refocusing on something outside my head.
blizzard of thoughts .. blizzard of emotions ..
refocus -- "what's trying to be liberated from my thoughts" -- you used the word "what" ... i guess the what is my mind itself is trying to be liberated from thoughts. isnt that a fine impossible task the mind has set for itself. that should keep it busy and not woken up.
refocusing : "what is actually..." well, the only tool i seem to be using to engage in this whole (frustrating) exercise is my mind. so I guess id have to say my mind is actually listening to thoughts it thought up.Ok, maybe its just a semantics thing, but whenever I see you mention listener = generator thing etc, I get the impression you are allowing that to be "you", now I know you described it above, but what is actually listening to thoughts?
that doesnt strike me as particularly useful nor "100% get it". I got comfortable with ignoring (most of) my thoughts, maybe i should try and get comfortable with ignoring (most of) the looking. that way im not expending any energy looking or listening... feh.
Remember though, dont get hung up on what it will be like, get hung up on looking right now to see is there a self.
well, d*mmit, i don't know how to look. or i suppose I could be looking and not seeing anything and that's just making me feel pissed off. I wonder what Im expecting it to feel like if i actually did agree that there was nothing to see there.. and not just the that i-can't-see-but-it-must-be-there belief i have.
kinda nervous now.
is this the same question as :Another question, what is it that wants to be liberated?
I think maybe my posts are too verbose, and we're losing track of each other. I almost want to ditch all the back-and-forth quoting and have you pose one question as a followup.So you talk of being content to let thoughts stream along. If thats the case, whats trying to be liberated from them?
Re: Tak
Ok, you're right, Im going to keep it all in one block of text and keep it simpler.
First let me say this, this IS the most confusing paradoxical process you will go through, like, even in this very process there is no one in control, its just a human checking and checking until something that was already the case is seen, allow the frustration , allow the fear, take it all in and keep investigating. And yes, I appreciate the word look is frustrating, I even tried to lay out what I did in the experiment, but looking simply means experiencing reality and checking to see what is that sense of you based on compare to the sense of everything else.
You had some sort of glimpse for 3 hours, it means you are doing something right, dont hold onto that glimpse but at least acknowledge that with some honesty there is a truth to be seen.
Another thing, dont beat yourself up about believing thoughts or whatever, we are not here to meditate , we are here to get you to see no self. We'll get to content of thoughts another time this is done.
You say you cant answer the question "whats trying to be liberated from them?", theres a reason, its unanswerable, there is nothing there to BE liberated from them, that is not to deny a process and a realization of something that is already the case, but thats all it is , where is the 'Mark' within that process?
You say somethings obviously trying to be liberated from them, then what?
Right now, do not think of a pink elephant looking at you from behind the computer, dont think that right now. Did you succeed? Im presuming not,Thats my point. It is the outside stimulus that causes your behaviour, be it thoughts, movement, actions, decisions, what you need to do is check when IS there a "Mark" deciding things, and then check is it actually true in your honest honest honest experience, really break it down.
Believe me man I appreciate that this process is a very annoying one. I really do, im with you on that, allow the frustration, hell, if there was a self, it would be able to stop the frustration, Its really about digging out your honesty and checking if your assumption about "you" is correct, in every part of your life, as often as you can.
Even your story about being in the conference, how your whole thinking kept hopping "these guys are all talking to serve their egos"..."oh wait ironically this is just a mirror of me doing my own ego thing"..."post this up to display my honesty"....all just a train of thought, always always find where does a tangible real life self fit into this.
First let me say this, this IS the most confusing paradoxical process you will go through, like, even in this very process there is no one in control, its just a human checking and checking until something that was already the case is seen, allow the frustration , allow the fear, take it all in and keep investigating. And yes, I appreciate the word look is frustrating, I even tried to lay out what I did in the experiment, but looking simply means experiencing reality and checking to see what is that sense of you based on compare to the sense of everything else.
You had some sort of glimpse for 3 hours, it means you are doing something right, dont hold onto that glimpse but at least acknowledge that with some honesty there is a truth to be seen.
Another thing, dont beat yourself up about believing thoughts or whatever, we are not here to meditate , we are here to get you to see no self. We'll get to content of thoughts another time this is done.
You say you cant answer the question "whats trying to be liberated from them?", theres a reason, its unanswerable, there is nothing there to BE liberated from them, that is not to deny a process and a realization of something that is already the case, but thats all it is , where is the 'Mark' within that process?
You say somethings obviously trying to be liberated from them, then what?
This isnt about shaking the thought of it, this is about checking if its actually true, theres no point you trying to instill a belief that there is no one in control, thats why you must check for yourself,and shaking the thought that there's some part of me (or other people) "in charge" about all the non-auto-pilot stuff is so pervasive that it seems like im cracked to even consider it.
Right now, do not think of a pink elephant looking at you from behind the computer, dont think that right now. Did you succeed? Im presuming not,Thats my point. It is the outside stimulus that causes your behaviour, be it thoughts, movement, actions, decisions, what you need to do is check when IS there a "Mark" deciding things, and then check is it actually true in your honest honest honest experience, really break it down.
Believe me man I appreciate that this process is a very annoying one. I really do, im with you on that, allow the frustration, hell, if there was a self, it would be able to stop the frustration, Its really about digging out your honesty and checking if your assumption about "you" is correct, in every part of your life, as often as you can.
Even your story about being in the conference, how your whole thinking kept hopping "these guys are all talking to serve their egos"..."oh wait ironically this is just a mirror of me doing my own ego thing"..."post this up to display my honesty"....all just a train of thought, always always find where does a tangible real life self fit into this.
Re: Tak
Post 6 - Tues 22 May 2012
I did read your response before i went to work so I could keep this process going today.
it seems the hardest thing here is that im so used to assuming that mark is either thinking thoughts or listening to thoughts or making decisions (in some fashion, about stuff i for some reason feel is important) that its gets really confusing, scary and frustrating questioning that assumption.
digging -- digging into decisions. why am i ok with letting myself zone out driving to work w/o feeling that “mark” is involved? or make all the little decisions about how to spend my time that dont register on a conscious level without “mark” being involved.
the answer -- because i feel ok with “giving up” or surrendering that level of control. I trust things will work out ok on the course they’re on w/o my guidance *or* that I’ve set them on in the past. Hurm, now I remember explaining that sometimes i dont feel like i’m working hard in the moment, but looking back, I feel it’s easy now because i put in work in the past in order to be well placed now. If you put in occasional effort to stay centered in the rushing stream, you seldom have to paddle furiously to stay away from the rocks or riverbanks.
In this context of no-self, that seems like a thought reverse engineering its existence into the flow of events.
Yet for other decisions, i somehow feel the like “mark” should be involved or was involved -- should I take an expensive vacation? should I buy a house? should I talk to a new person? should i make a choice that I know has consequences? Should I do work now, so my future expected path is easier / more pleasant?
For the “important stuff”, I’d guess some of those are my mind being genuinely useful, and the others are just generating suffering. At the root, there’s a lack of trust that things will work out like i want them to unless i involve “mark” to set the course. intellectual understanding tho.
and yet, if no-self is true, things have always worked out to get me this far, and the path has been whatever its been and my experiences have been whatever they’ve been. At the very least its been survivable.
maybe there’s nothing but different types of functional decisions... decisions to be made from the head or the heart w/o requiring guidance from “mark”. Ill always make a functional existance-level decision until i finally don’t and it kills me (or my time is up). Oh, maybe i’m struggling with the thought that I can make a “good” or “better” or “best” decision to maximize .. grr.
crap. so thoughty.
But is this the kind of “keep looking” i’m supposed to be at? It doesnt feel like you’re going to say “yes”.
digging - So what if “mark” didnt exist to make the “important” decisions, how did I get here? that feels a little scary... I’m recognizing some fear here, so trying to stay here. what i want to type is that I got here w/o Mark. So decision were thought about and agonized over, actions were taken, emotions were felt. All w/o ‘mark’? Now i’m feeling that I’m heading right towards a “is there free will” exercise, which I think we’re putting aside (as a dead end for this no-self realization goal).
maybe my question to ask myself should be: “does this decision/action/emotion require there to be a ‘mark’ in charge?” I can apply that to the present when I remember. Looking back at the past, i have a belief that there was mark involved and looking forward i have a belief that there will need to be a mark involved.
this exercise seems to be designed to repeatedly challenge my assumption that there needs to be a “mark” involved. By looking at all the decisions/actions/emotions in the now and seeing that most (all?) of them dont require a “mark” to be in charge... then i can use that realization about “now” to dissolve the past and future assumptions of mark-in-charge.
gee, im so in my head right now, all comfy thinking thoughts and figuring things out. Not likely to be any realization here.
maybe ill re-read this thread and then go to sleep.
thanks for the guidance and patience tho. im grateful.
thanks for the reminder. I feel im going to need my emotions to help me through the process and into the realization.allow the frustration , allow the fear, take it all in and keep investigating.
I did read your response before i went to work so I could keep this process going today.
the unanswerable questions again. :(You say you cant answer the question "whats trying to be liberated from them?", theres a reason, its unanswerable, there is nothing there to BE liberated from them, that is not to deny a process and a realization of something that is already the case, but thats all it is , where is the 'Mark' within that process?
You say somethings obviously trying to be liberated from them, then what?
it seems the hardest thing here is that im so used to assuming that mark is either thinking thoughts or listening to thoughts or making decisions (in some fashion, about stuff i for some reason feel is important) that its gets really confusing, scary and frustrating questioning that assumption.
digging -- digging into decisions. why am i ok with letting myself zone out driving to work w/o feeling that “mark” is involved? or make all the little decisions about how to spend my time that dont register on a conscious level without “mark” being involved.
the answer -- because i feel ok with “giving up” or surrendering that level of control. I trust things will work out ok on the course they’re on w/o my guidance *or* that I’ve set them on in the past. Hurm, now I remember explaining that sometimes i dont feel like i’m working hard in the moment, but looking back, I feel it’s easy now because i put in work in the past in order to be well placed now. If you put in occasional effort to stay centered in the rushing stream, you seldom have to paddle furiously to stay away from the rocks or riverbanks.
In this context of no-self, that seems like a thought reverse engineering its existence into the flow of events.
Yet for other decisions, i somehow feel the like “mark” should be involved or was involved -- should I take an expensive vacation? should I buy a house? should I talk to a new person? should i make a choice that I know has consequences? Should I do work now, so my future expected path is easier / more pleasant?
For the “important stuff”, I’d guess some of those are my mind being genuinely useful, and the others are just generating suffering. At the root, there’s a lack of trust that things will work out like i want them to unless i involve “mark” to set the course. intellectual understanding tho.
and yet, if no-self is true, things have always worked out to get me this far, and the path has been whatever its been and my experiences have been whatever they’ve been. At the very least its been survivable.
maybe there’s nothing but different types of functional decisions... decisions to be made from the head or the heart w/o requiring guidance from “mark”. Ill always make a functional existance-level decision until i finally don’t and it kills me (or my time is up). Oh, maybe i’m struggling with the thought that I can make a “good” or “better” or “best” decision to maximize .. grr.
crap. so thoughty.
But is this the kind of “keep looking” i’m supposed to be at? It doesnt feel like you’re going to say “yes”.
digging - So what if “mark” didnt exist to make the “important” decisions, how did I get here? that feels a little scary... I’m recognizing some fear here, so trying to stay here. what i want to type is that I got here w/o Mark. So decision were thought about and agonized over, actions were taken, emotions were felt. All w/o ‘mark’? Now i’m feeling that I’m heading right towards a “is there free will” exercise, which I think we’re putting aside (as a dead end for this no-self realization goal).
maybe my question to ask myself should be: “does this decision/action/emotion require there to be a ‘mark’ in charge?” I can apply that to the present when I remember. Looking back at the past, i have a belief that there was mark involved and looking forward i have a belief that there will need to be a mark involved.
this exercise seems to be designed to repeatedly challenge my assumption that there needs to be a “mark” involved. By looking at all the decisions/actions/emotions in the now and seeing that most (all?) of them dont require a “mark” to be in charge... then i can use that realization about “now” to dissolve the past and future assumptions of mark-in-charge.
gee, im so in my head right now, all comfy thinking thoughts and figuring things out. Not likely to be any realization here.
maybe ill re-read this thread and then go to sleep.
thanks for the guidance and patience tho. im grateful.
Re: Tak
i read somewhere that there are 3-4 generally recognized paths to this no-self realization.
* knowledge - "razor's edge"
* love and devotion
* expression of divine
* inward awareness
All my tendency towards "head stuff" makes me curious if I'm getting lost in #1 (a harder path) and should be looking more towards what sounds like #3.
feh, ok, cant stop typing.
g'night.
* knowledge - "razor's edge"
* love and devotion
* expression of divine
* inward awareness
All my tendency towards "head stuff" makes me curious if I'm getting lost in #1 (a harder path) and should be looking more towards what sounds like #3.
feh, ok, cant stop typing.
g'night.
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