We start a conversation here, if you are new.

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Elizabeth
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We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:47 am

Hello to you, new to the forum.

Welcome to the start of the conversation that explores the reality of a you.
If you can devote some time each day to observe, and report on what you see, please click on Reply, and tell me a little about your self, and what you expect from this process.
I'll reply with a question, and it's begun. Simple!


Much love, Elizabeth

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:39 pm

Hi!
I'm new here and looking for a one-on-one almost desperately. :)
I haven't read more than a couple of threads in this forum, but somehow at the moment I'm not into reading more.
In these past couple of weeks something has shifted and although it's been quite easily "accessible" during this period, it fades and is back, fades and is back again. This isn't anything like I imagined, something much much simpler but quite exhausting, well not this itself but somehow getting accustomed to this. Been laughing and crying a lot... When reading these liberation threads or the description of this forum it seems that this is the same but I'm not ready to go shout it out loud though. Feeling quite confused and some part of "me" would rather like to return things the way they were (but of course "I" can't, believe me I tried!). It's hard to find words. Somehow I'm simultaneously feeling quite disoriented and "at home". I'd really be grateful for some guidance if someone has time. Thanks already for having this forum!

-MarieSophie

PS. English isn't my native language, so please excuse my clumsiness...  :) 

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Elizabeth
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:58 pm

Hi MarieSophie,
You get quick service, was online :-)
We aim to shift perspective here, and it sounds like you are having an experience like that.
Please tell me a little more about the 'at home' part and how that came to happen.
We can walk through a few clarifying exercises as soon as we get oriented to where you are, so if you can lay it out as it seemed to happen, that would be helpful.
Glad you are here!
Love, Elizabeth
Hi!
I'm new here and looking for a one-on-one almost desperately. :)
I haven't read more than a couple of threads in this forum, but somehow at the moment I'm not into reading more.
In these past couple of weeks something has shifted and although it's been quite easily "accessible" during this period, it fades and is back, fades and is back again. This isn't anything like I imagined, something much much simpler but quite exhausting, well not this itself but somehow getting accustomed to this. Been laughing and crying a lot... When reading these liberation threads or the description of this forum it seems that this is the same but I'm not ready to go shout it out loud though. Feeling quite confused and some part of "me" would rather like to return things the way they were (but of course "I" can't, believe me I tried!). It's hard to find words. Somehow I'm simultaneously feeling quite disoriented and "at home". I'd really be grateful for some guidance if someone has time. Thanks already for having this forum!

-MarieSophie

PS. English isn't my native language, so please excuse my clumsiness...  :) 

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:48 pm

Great! Ok, so...
The shift started one evening at home, I'd just returned from a 2-day retreat which had been  "nice" but nothing extraordinary happened there. So there I was in our living room, when something shifted. Not after any excersice or anything, it just did. Everything felt SO spacious and clear looking at things around "me" felt almost unbearably intensive, like they were almost inside my skin. At the same time there was this most natural realization that this is how it's supposed to be that this is what "reality" has always looked like. Everything being amazingly clear with sharp and vivid "colours" (I don't mean something like a great experience of some colour "spectacle", but simply seeing clearer than ever). All attemp to ANYTHING had dropped spontaneously. Now as these fingers on mine are writing this, it's being seen again. I try to look for "me" but can't find it. I mean, this body is here and if someone calls my name, I know to react to that, but it's like I'm looking from somewhere else than from the me that there used to be. Can't really locate myself but like from a "distance" or "behind". Still these words don't capture this very well. The feeling that this has been here all along and I've searched and searched from too far, because it's here. I don't feel I have to DO anything, thing seem to just "happen" by themselves, this body moves and does what it does but there's no-one doing it. Not like the "I" that used to invest energy into doing things as "me" (of course not aware of it like this). Thing just flow and "I'm" seeing this although I don't know who I am.

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:58 pm

For a few weeks now this has been going on. Some moments clearly seen, but even when "I" can't see this I remember it's somewhere really close and that It (this) won't go anywhere even if it's temporarily not seen. Or when this is only remembered "intellectually".
Ridiculously simple, most natural, happens when all attempt and effort drops away.

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:01 pm

ok, that's about it, you can ask anything and I'll do my best to describe it.

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Elizabeth
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:22 pm

ok, that's about it, you can ask anything and I'll do my best to describe it.
Well, you are very clear. First of all, this is quite normal as people go through Gate, seeing behind the illusion of self. A shift.
The clarity, the sense of self able to respond normally, but the truth of no-self being seen. Paradoxical, yet seems to be the natural state. Yup.
I have more to say but wanted to get this to you immediately.
Welcome home, dear Marie Sophie.

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:12 pm

Thank you again, Elizabeth.
Tears come to my eyes again... Tears of relief mostly.
Home is really a good word (if any), for this really feels like coming Home. Home that I wasn't sure existed and didn't know what it would be like (of course I didn't know because "I" was the only thing standing in the way). For almost as long as I can remember I've kind of "known" that there must be something more (or perhaps it's actually LESS) to life than what I was able to understand or see. Even when I didn't consciously know to look for it there's been a nagging feeling of something missing.
Weightless, still, clarity, ... they are all here but nothing like the "I" expected. More clearly than before I now see how the mind makes all things and all descriptions into concepts and then tries to achieve the image it has of "weightlessness, stillness and clarity" quite aggressively. I had tried so hard to let go and drop everything and dare to look and do everything that the gurus advice to do. But in the end it somehow just happened: everything was allowed to be as it is, everything, the expectations too, dropped by themselves and there was seeing, not looking.

Now I have a question that I find a bit difficult to formulate. It goes something like: is there anything that can be "done" to stay more of the time "here" or "stabililize" this, can it be helped in any way? Going from seeing to not seeing to seeing to not seeing, on and on and on, feels quite exhausting.

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:14 pm

stabilize, not "stabililize" :D

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Elizabeth
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:12 pm

Hi Marie Sophie,
That is a great question, and we almost all wind up asking it.
Seems like the answer lies with thoughts and patterns that have not quite disappeared. Even while the nature of reality can be seen, it is still possible to be hooked into some sticky thoughts, for a while. Confusing! That seems like another paradox! but it's what we live. So this is not full enlightenment, but an invaluable step towards it. Practicing seeing what is real, and what is NOT real, as we live into this.
We may feel suffering due to unquestioned attachments, or fears and anxieties that still arise. We may even be attached to some ideas ABOUT how this should be, awakening.
You have observed how mind is continuously generating thoughts ABOUT the world, that are taken to be reality. Our thoughts ABOUT reality, as you plainly see, are not reality. Let's work from there. We will be looking at the mechanism of belief and attachment for each thoughts/story/ emotional surge as it comes up. This lays the groundwork for 'what's next".
I'll just ask some silly questions and we will play with this, to uncover the mechanism of a self as it works, and so we can use it to clarify a few things. OK?
Silly question #1.
If there is a cup in front of you, is it truer to say it is A cup, or a MY cup?
How does it come to be owned?
How does *anything* come to be owned?
How widespread is this concept in human affairs?

I'll be on computer for another while, if you want to post back and forth. Take good care, Marie.
Love, Elizabeth

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:41 pm

Yeah, I'll be here to post back and forth.
Everything you wrote about thoughts and patterns that have not quite disappeared, was helpful, so thanks for that. It's like I already somehow knew all of that, but was just hoping something could speed the process. But at the same time life has never felt this light, so I'm really more than happy with the way things are now. :)
And I'm happy to continue the way you suggested.
So...
Truer is to say its A cup (which too is just a word chosen to represent that object), but for some purposes it's of course useful to say MY cup (as in "Is this my cup or yours?"), even if there's not really a me that refers to. It (the cup or anything else) comes to be owned when a ME is created by thought. If there is an identification with a separate me, the me wants to own things (add labels MY to things) to secure keeping itself alive (to numb the fear of death). When the ME (that separate image of a ME) thinks it would die if it didn't own anything, it just might be right? And when I identify with that image of a ME, I begin to label everything as MY this and MY that. This concept is extremely widespread in human affairs. So much so that even people who see through it, struggle in communicating in any other way.

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Elizabeth
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:03 pm

Yeah, I'll be here to post back and forth.
Everything you wrote about thoughts and patterns that have not quite disappeared, was helpful, so thanks for that. It's like I already somehow knew all of that, but was just hoping something could speed the process. But at the same time life has never felt this light, so I'm really more than happy with the way things are now. :)
And I'm happy to continue the way you suggested.
So...
Truer is to say its A cup (which too is just a word chosen to represent that object), but for some purposes it's of course useful to say MY cup (as in "Is this my cup or yours?"), even if there's not really a me that refers to. It (the cup or anything else) comes to be owned when a ME is created by thought. If there is an identification with a separate me, the me wants to own things (add labels MY to things) to secure keeping itself alive (to numb the fear of death). When the ME (that separate image of a ME) thinks it would die if it didn't own anything, it just might be right? And when I identify with that image of a ME, I begin to label everything as MY this and MY that. This concept is extremely widespread in human affairs. So much so that even people who see through it, struggle in communicating in any other way.
So, the me, is an entity that exists only in thoughts ABOUT itself? And attaches a ME, MINE, YOURS, and THEIRS to thoughts ABOUT the world. My husband, my child, my job, my philosophy...my rights.
Without a ME, is it the end of the world as we know it?
And without a ME in thoughts, does the world disappear? or go on in a rather less obstructed way?
You Know this answer, just tying off the knots :-)

That was ownership. Seen to be an illusion. The next time a ME tries to add itself to a thought, story, or pattern, that is a way to view it. Take off the ME and see if you can find any drama in the situation.

Now, let's take a run at do-ership:
The persistent belief that a ME is somehow in control, chooses, is responsible, and without it's direction, nothing you would like would happen.
(I love how you said these fingers typing, just flowing out. That is pretty much it there. But we will nail this one, too. )
Is there a me typing? Breathing? Walking? Making tea and doing laundry? Please check for me as you move around for a bit, maybe go for a walk. In your direct observation, is there a separate self DOING that in any way? Or is that "I am walking, choosing to go left" just a thought?
Is the thought I AM DOING AND CHOOSING THIS actually doing and choosing, or is that part of the owning in mind's narrative?

Love, Elizabeth

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:07 pm

I was posting this just as your reply came...

Pondering more about this: "When the ME (that separate image of a ME) thinks it would die if it didn't own anything, it just might be right?"
led me to this:
looks like it is so... because if there's no me, then whose problems, ideas, insights, feelings etc. are these...? And since I've seen there's no me, these problems cannot possibly be MINE. And since they are not MINE (or anyone's), why should there be a need to do anything avbout them... They can just be seen as what they are: something this brain is used to producing :) Just like other bodily functions aren't a problem either so why would thoughts (a function of brain) be either...

Love,
Marie

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:08 pm

So, I'll read your message and be back in a moment.

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Iida
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Re: We start a conversation here, if you are new.

Postby Iida » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:24 pm

Yes, yes and yes for the ME/MY thing.
And on we go to the do-ership.
No, a ME is not needed for any of this to happen. I've seen it very clearly lately. It's pretty amazing how thing flow naturally without ME doing anything. AND it's amazing how I used to think nothing would work if I didn't make sure it went the way I wanted. The do-ership really is just a thought. If the mind cannot own actual things, it will try to own doing. Same phenomenon.


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