Step in when ready :)

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Ilona
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Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:03 pm

Hi, please introduce yourself a little and tell me how you found this forum.

what is I to you now? what is self?

looking forward to work with you.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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cyclops
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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby cyclops » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:31 pm

A friend directed me to this forum.

I to me is a coming and going of the sense that I is real. It shows upmost strongly in emotions. When I look in to see where and what I is, I find nothing.

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:34 pm

hi Cyclops, great to meet you.

what do you expect to happen? how would you recognise that seeing happened? what is it that is not complete?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby cyclops » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:44 pm

I'm puzzled by the fact that the belief in the reality of separate self comes back again and again, even though I've seen through it many times. I suppose it would be complete if that were accepted. It feels like unfinished business.

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:39 pm

hm, so you say you have seen it and it keeps slipping away? if so, can you answer my questions one by one. in full.
let's see where you are.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby cyclops » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:49 am

Sure, let's do that.

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:20 pm

The questions still stand- what do you expect happen, what do you want from
this conversation truly and honestly? What are you here for?
Is there anything to find out?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby cyclops » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:41 am

I don't know what to expect. Anything may happen.

In my experience, the seeing of no-self is not a once-off event and then its settled and no belief in self appears again. It keeps coming back as reactions to all sort of situations. It shows up in moods where there's
a subconscious story about myself wanting this or lacking that. Or in getting triggered by praise and criticism. Or as a kind of background anxiety. When I look in and see that it is a self-concept built around feelings, a story, etc., the whole thing dissolves and there’s space and freedom. Sometimes the story comes back because there’s attachment to it. It’s like being in a dream, until I wake up. I’m usually awake, but I also fall asleep. It’s not a big problem, but it makes me wonder if there isn’t a deeper realization that would uproot the belief in self so that it’s done with once and for all. That’s what I’m here to find out. No idea if talking with you will help me to do that.

How is it with you? Is it an ongoing process of seeing through the construction of self? That’s how it is with me.

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:27 am

Hi, sorry for late answer. Been busy here and wanted to answer properly. So you say that seeing no self is not one time event. I agree - its a process. It's one time event to actual realisation that blows any possibility to believe in this self thingy again- like seeing that santa is not real. But there is a lot of dancing around this point. Dissolutionment takes tame. Deconstruction of belief structure, falling of precious ideas- all that takes time. But to see the truth of no separate self is one time thing. You are either awake or not.
Perhaps it is possible to fall back into the fog if you stay stuck somewhere for long enough. So you need to keep going further. And once no self is realised, seen truly and fully, then no-self thingy becomes a tool to help through the time of disillusionment as you have something solid to compare the fluff to and nothing that is untrue can stand the true- it falls away.

Ok, enough theory. It's just how I see it. And for me it took time in the beginning to settle in, maybe about a couple of months till the full blown effect was really coming into view.

Yes, stories come back and they are running by themselves. No need to believe them anymore. What is there for them to stick? Migh just enjoy the show.

So tell me, can you believe that you are a doer and a thinker?
What is it precisely that is holding the identification in place?
What is the identification mechanism?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby cyclops » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:07 am

Thank you, Ilona. I'm very grateful to you for taking the time to consider my question with such care.
But there is a lot of dancing around this point.
I’m comforted to hear you say that. I was getting impatient with the dance. Even though I realize it’s not up to me to stop it!
So tell me, can you believe that you are a doer and a thinker?
Yes, sometimes I believe it. Usually not for long. Consciousness unmasks the belief, or life does.

When I look at this question straight-on, here and now, the answer is no. It is impossible to believe that.

So, clearly there's a process of going relatively unconscious, on and off.
What is it precisely that is holding the identification in place?
Habit. Emotion attached to the idea of “me.” The strength of an emotion can suggest, for a while, that there is a self that needs to be protected, or asserted, or recognized.
What is the identification mechanism?
Attachment to pleasure, and fear of pain. There also seems to be a mechanism of shutting out or reducing consciousness. This I have no handle on, it's as if I zone out and regress to a state of believing in the reality of self. Here’s an example. Earlier today, out of the blue, in the middle of a walk with my wife on a perfectly beautiful Spring day, I started talking about a friend who had annoyed me, whom I disapproved of. After a few minutes I noticed my own discordant emotion and wondered why I was doing this. I saw that the underlying purpose of my rant was to experience and sustain the pleasure of being right, of knowing better, etc. At that moment, without any effort, I saw that this “me” was a mental construction that needed a steady application of thought and attention to keep it going, because in itself it was nothing, it didn't exist. The thoughts about my friend became immediately compassionate and free of resentment -- not because I decided to be "good" but because I felt no need to assert or contrast myself against him.

I just realized that when I approached you with my initial question I did have an expectation, not of you but of the the process of awakening: that it could or should go faster, that maybe there was a faster track than the one I'm on. Somehow in the course of this exchange that impatience seems to be dissolving. In fact I'm starting to find my initial question pretty funny. Who is it that wants to get somewhere faster? Who wants to be free of identification at all times?

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:56 am

Yes, sometimes I believe it. Usually not for long. Consciousness unmasks the belief, or life does.

When I look at this question straight-on, here and now, the answer is no. It is impossible to believe that.

So, clearly there's a process of going relatively unconscious, on and off.
everything is going on automatic. like if you watch a great movie and get sucked up in a good part, then zoom out and see it's a movie, but for a few minutes focus was completely on what is going on in the scene and feelings, emotion felt as there was identification with characters. this is also happening in real life. there is zooming in and out of character.
identification with the story is also part of story.
Attachment to pleasure, and fear of pain- is also a story.
there is nothing that attaches, only story about attachment.

can you focus for a few minutes on what is here, now, on raw direct experience, what do you notice?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby cyclops » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:21 pm

I notice sensations, feelings . . . sounds . . . thoughts about what you wrote . . . mind looking for self, finding space . . . The focus narrows and widens. Everything is crisp and clear. No one is doing any of this.

Bird sounds . . . the absence of a hearer is beautifully obvious . . . I'm smiling . . . and the "I" in "I'm smiling" is just a figure of speech.

One thing puzzles me though: When I intentionally "focus on raw experience," that intentional shift of attention does not seem to be happing "on automatic." Or does it?

On closer inspection, it's not different from the rest of experience. Even intention seems to be unintentional!

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:05 pm

Exactly.
Very clear view.
Is there any more stuckness, seeking?
Focus, intention, inspiration, observation, all are labels for experiencing.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby cyclops » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:54 am

There's no stuckness, no seeking. There's a subtle bliss and ease in my body, I think because some confusion has been settled. The shift may have happened this morning after reading your words:
Focus, intention, inspiration, observation, all are labels for experiencing.
A neat coincidence: I saw a great film, experienced awareness zooming in and out of identification with events on the screen, then spent a couple of hours with friends and experienced the same process there, just as you wrote earlier this morning. No difference!

Many thanks, Ilona. Much gratitude and love.

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Re: Step in when ready :)

Postby Ilona » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:53 am

Oh wow, I'm delighted to read this.
Looks like you are ready for the final questions.
Please answer in full and only what feels true 100%

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.  

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Looking forward
Love you.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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