Anyone ready to look right now?

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Bill
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Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:54 pm

You can start here.
Tell a little about yourself and what your expectations are.

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Mich4837
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Mich4837 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:03 pm

Hi Billy. Jason here. I have been questioning the nature of my experience for quite a while. I have often gone through intense periods of "spiritual seeking" for months at a time, over the course of many years, and had many powerful experiences. I have come to recognize those experiences as being unimportant, and even hindrances, but that took time. Each bout of seeking gets more intense and each gets more refined. Botton line, my expectations are to finish this and I believe now is the time to do it. To become completely clear and resolve the issue ie. my true nature.

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Bill
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:28 pm

Hey Jason glad you're here.

Sounds like you've been searching for this thing for a long time.
I'm assuming you've looked around a bit and read some of our material.
If not, do that. Take a look at the Gateless Gatecrashers book also. Its an
excellent companion for anyone doing this process.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

It will be most helpful to you to commit to posting at least once a day and
giving your full 100% honest answers to the questions I'm going to ask you.

So ready?
First question.

What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I in real life, none, zero. No entity. It can't be found.

What comes up for you? Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations....
Write lots.

I won't be back here until approx 8 hrs from now.
Take your time and I'm glad you're here.

Bill

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Mich4837
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Mich4837 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:02 am

Bill,

Thanks for that fast response yesterday. I have begun to review the materials. It has been a pretty busy weekend over here so I haven't quite had as much time as I would have liked.

As far as my reaction to being told the "I" I think I am is not real, there actually isn't much of one. I don't intend for that response to be glib. It is just that I have been playing with that conceptualy for years and experientialy also. The "me" has been seen as a transparent phantom quite often. There is just a strong tendency to go back into identification quite often. The thoughts still have a stickiness to them at times.

There were times in the past, I was terrified at the thought of their being no ghost in the machine, no entity, but that fear was seen through. So not a lot comes up emotionally in response to the idea. The main emotion I have felt recently is frustration that this isn't resolved. The investigation gets more and more refined, and more experential and less intellectual, but the thoughts are still hooked into, the subtle belief in "me" remains.

Hope that helps narrow the scope a bit.

'Jason

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Bill
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:42 am

Hello Jason,

Good to see you back.
Good thoughtful answers.
Thank you.
In reading through, I had some questions.
I'll just go through them and if you could address each
question I have, that would be great.
As far as my reaction to being told the "I" I think I am is not real, there actually isn't much of one. I don't intend for that response to be glib. It is just that I have been playing with that conceptualy for years and experientialy also. The "me" has been seen as a transparent phantom quite often. There is just a strong tendency to go back into identification quite often. The thoughts still have a stickiness to them at times.
Help me clarify this.
You have seen through the illusion of the self/I?
Or its conceptual only?
There were times in the past, I was terrified at the thought of their being no ghost in the machine, no entity, but that fear was seen through. So not a lot comes up emotionally in response to the idea.
This is excellent. Fear can be a major hurdle.
The main emotion I have felt recently is frustration that this isn't resolved. The investigation gets more and more refined, and more experential and less intellectual, but the thoughts are still hooked into, the subtle belief in "me" remains.
What would it mean for this to be resolved for you?

What are your expectations of awakening? Please list all you can think of.
Get them all out on the table.
What will life be like for Jason after awakening?

What is this subtle belief in 'me' you mention?

Bill

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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Mich4837 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:31 pm

Bill,

Thanks for the quick response. When I say I have seen through the self what I am referring to is that it has been seen, quite often, that I am not the thinker of the thoughts. I don't mean conceptually. I mean that on many occasions, quite often, in fact, it is easy to simply see they arise on their own and disappear on their own. It is also easy to see that merely bounce back and forth between, "hey, this is good for you" and "no, that is bad for you" over and over. The illusion that presently arising thoughts refers to a thinker, "Jason" is often seen and it is clear it is phantom. However, the bottom line is, no matter how many times this has been seen, it hasn't been seen to the point where thoughts can't hook the identification right back in. So I don't feel it is merely conceptual. It is experiential, but not fully. It is frustrating because it has clearly been seen this is not an entity, this thought system, but somehow, impossibly, the thoughts get paid to much attention. It is like knowing the dude dressed up as Santa Claus at the mall with a fake beard, pillows under his shirt, and liquor on his breath, is indeed not Santa Claus, but still expecting him to fly me over a present on his reindeer. So that is what I mean. That covers the subtle belief in the me also, that you asked about. Same type of thing.

As far as what it would mean to have it resolved? What are my expectations? Well I have exactly one expectation. I want to end psychological suffering. That is it. I don't expect my life to change at all, nor do I particularly need it to, and I don't expect to avoid physical pain or trying issues, but I just want personal psychological suffering to end. There was a time the search was just as much about ending the endless meaning of life type questions and the curiosity of wondering how this whole thing called life works and operates, but those are side shows really. It is all about ending the needless mental suffering. It would also be nice to stop seeking, since that currently provides a good deal of the stress. Otherwise that is it. I don't expect that I will act much different, win the lotto on a daily basis or be able to use Jedi mind tricks on people, although that last perk might not be bad if you can tell me how to do that.

Thanks again Bill.

'Jason

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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:35 am

Jason - you see that you are not the thinker of your thoughts and thoughts keep coming up.... you get hooked in. Repeat cycle. Again and again. Sounds like something very familiar!
You understand there is not an entity doing the thinking, but still there is the 'getting hooked' as you call it back into the thoughts. The 'you' is getting hooked.

Your expectation with awakening is to end personal psychological suffering.
Sorry, I really doubt it will end. This will more than likely still take place after awakening. I can attest to it. All the emotions you've ever had and more will probably happen.
For most people, life is pretty normal like it had been before. Things do seem a little less sticky though and for most seeking does lessen. There just doesn't seem to be anything to crave after. For most.
Whatever happens to you will be your unique version for sure. Its very hard to predict. Its best to leave this expectation here and take what comes.

Let's take a look at thoughts a little further:

Tell me, for you, where do thoughts arise?
Where do they originate for Jason?

Are your thoughts possessive in nature? Like are they all concerning you in some way shape or form?
All about you? Or not?

If you look at your computer.... is it a computer or is it your computer?

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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Mich4837 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:47 pm

I don't think I am on the right track here then. The expectation is important. The reason I say that is because, in seeing, over and over, that the me is not there, I have already greatly reduced the stickiness of the thoughts and the suffering. But that is not the point here. The point is to end "my" psychological suffering. I understand suffering still comes up, suffering thoughts, doubts, feelings, but the one who suffers should be entirely gone, not from time to time, but always and now. If seeking is not ended than the basic realization has not occurred. Otherwise, one is describing an awakening, which is what I would say has already occurred for me. The effects of suffering are greatly reduced because their is a lot more space in which they occur. But to be honest, the end of seeking and psychological suffering is the only goal. Otherwise I will just go have a beer and watch the TV. Literally almost every non-dual teacher, no matter the teaching style and philosophy says the same thing. If seeking exists, you have gotten nowhere. I would tend to agree. Seeking must cease. There is no doubt an awakening occurred here several years ago, but seeking continues.

Sorry to go back to this point, but I want to be very clear on what I am looking for.

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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:32 pm

HI Jason - let's see if we can sort out whether we can be helpful to you.
We are here for you and can help if what we have is what you're after.
Only you can know if that's true or not.

Can you tell me what are you really looking for?
Exactly.
You mention end of psychological suffering. That covers a whole lot.

What is it you're after?
And what's the connection with your seeking?
What is it that is still searching?

Namaste,
Bill

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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Mich4837 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:55 am

Bill,

Sure. And thanks again for the quick responses. I do think ending psychological suffering covers alot. All I am referring to is ending personal psychological suffering. In other words, simply completely seeing through the idea of a personal independent entity that can suffer. I am not after ending suffering. I am after ending "my" suffering. That is the entire connection to seeking. I understand what you are saying about suffering becoming less sticky. But if the "me" has been seen as imaginary the suffering cannot possibly ever be my suffering. I get this from time to time, but it doesn't always stick. It hasn't been permantly seen through and I believe it can and it will. That is EXACTLY what i am looking for. Does that make sense? And is it your experience?

What is seeking? Well, if I stick with direct experience, thoughts presently arising are seeking. However, I would say that urge to seek is not coming from the thoughts. The reason I say that is because the thoughts, when really looked at, have absolutely zero desire to truly end the seeking, they merely wish to speculate on the search and keep it going. So I see little relation to the seeking thoughts and the true desire for what is sought. It is a more a longing to come home if anything.

Hope that helps

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Bill
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:37 pm

Hello Jason,

What we do here is help people see through the illusion of self. That's all. We do not help people relieve their personal psychological suffering. If there's something you want to fix with your life, seeing the truth is not necessarily going
to help. There are plenty of other site/therapies that deal with that type of thing, a good one being 'The Work'.

You say you have already seen through the illusion and you want us to help you relieve all your personal psychological suffering.
Can you see the incongruency of that statement?
There is no 'you' to have personal suffering.

I am perfectly willing to help you to see through the illusion of self, but this relief of personal psychological suffering is not what our goal is here. That very well may be what happens for a lot of people but it cannot be our main emphasis.

If you want to see the truth, NO MATTER WHAT, only then will you be able to see what we're pointing to here.

Please take a look at our main web page. It is very clear on what we are about.
http://liberationunleashed.com/index.html

There's another thread on this site you might find interesting. Take your time and read through it. It might be helpful.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=29&t=715


Please let me know how you'd like to continue here.

Namaste,
Bill

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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Mich4837 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:49 pm

Bill,

I would like to continue, but we need to bridge the communication gap. You say "we do not help people relieve their personal psychological suffering" but that is exactly what your statement you referred to me says you do. I am not trying to disagree with you, and I think you are misunderstanding me., I have no interest whatsoever in The Work or any psychological practice. You refer me to this:

a global movement of people helping others to see through the illusion of self, that there is no separate entity behind the word ‘me’.

If there is no separate entity how can their personal suffering? You see the incongruency yourself. You just twisted my statement a bit. On a moment to moment basis I said I can look at present experience and see the illusion (presently occurring thoughts, feelings, sensations) and see they are merely that, bundles of thoughts, feelings and sensations, but I said I have not seen through this completely. Either you believe in Santa Claus or you don't. And I get hooked back in, so it has not been seen through completely, even though I can see exactly how the illusion of separate entity operates.

I don't want to look into any individual problems, but I want the individual illusion to drop so the problems are not my problems, merely problems.

You state, if you want to see the truth, no matter what. Of course that is the case. But why does anyone want to see the truth? is it not because life as a believed in separate entity is dissatisfying, uneasy and lacking? This is exactly what every single person who wants to see the truth wants to see it for, I assure you.

Can you see why I feel like you are misunderstanding me? Your other post you referred me to has a conversation identical to what I am saying. The person is discussing his suffering and the liberator is stating that you are expecting suffering to go away, and it won't, but it won't relate to an individual entity. This is personal suffering, this is EXACTLY what I am referring to. And your website is supporting EXACTLY what I am listening to. I would love to continue but can you see how you are misunderstanding my intentions. When you asked me what my expectations were and what I thought awakening "me" would be like, I said exactly the same but with no personal suffering. I did not say, completely blissful with zero suffering thoughts or feelings. I just want the my removed. Because that is the truth, I recognize that.

I would love for you to help me, but you seem to be completely missing my points. So I am hoping we can resolve that. I am not arguing with you and I am not seeking a resolution of any personal problems in my life at all whatsoever.

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Bill
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:19 am

Jason - Truce.
I'm not sure how this devolved into what feels like a pissing match :)
I propose we both stop this right now.
This is not what either of us are here for.

If I misunderstood you. I apologize.
I do sense a bit of resistance in your posts.
Part of what we do here is help you look at your own resistance.
Are you willing to do that, to look, to answer questions, and be guided?
If not, this will not work.

If yes, Let's get going.
This is where we stopped a day or so ago.

Let's take a look at thoughts a little further:

Tell me, for you, where do thoughts arise?
Where do they originate for Jason?

Are your thoughts possessive in nature?
Like are they all concerning you in some way shape or form?
All about you? Or not?

If you look at your computer.... is it a computer or is it your computer?

Bill

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Mich4837
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Mich4837 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Sorry Bill. Did not mean to get into a pissing match either. I just didn't want to be seen to be looking for any psychological solutions to problems. My psychological state is is beyond fixing, gave up on that one a while ago. Lets chalk our miscommunication up to the fallibility of language. I don't have a resistance to self inquiry, its all I have been doing lately. The resistance came out of the miscommunication.

Thoughts arise spontaneously. They don't arise for Jason. They arise.

Are they possessive in nature. Yes. They are primarily concerned with Jason's well being. They divide everything up into what is good/bad for Jason or what is neutral. The neutral stuff is discarded right away. The thoughts refer to possessions as either mine or not. Yes. Of course, being a thought, they can only infer possession, not create it.

'Jason

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Bill
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Re: Anyone ready to look right now?

Postby Bill » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:45 am

Sorry Bill. Did not mean to get into a pissing match either. I just didn't want to be seen to be looking for any psychological solutions to problems. My psychological state is is beyond fixing, gave up on that one a while ago. Lets chalk our miscommunication up to the fallibility of language. I don't have a resistance to self inquiry, its all I have been doing lately. The resistance came out of the miscommunication.
Ok Jason. That's great. Let's put this behind us and get on with what you're after.

We're going to be looking mostly at direct experience here and really leaving concepts
behind as much as we can. We want to look at what's happening, right here and now, even
if we're looking at thoughts.

Thoughts arise spontaneously. They don't arise for Jason. They arise.


Where do these thoughts arise? Where do they originate?
Can you control them?
Can you choose what to think?
Are they possessive in nature. Yes. They are primarily concerned with Jason's well being. They divide everything up into what is good/bad for Jason or what is neutral. The neutral stuff is discarded right away. The thoughts refer to possessions as either mine or not. Yes. Of course, being a thought, they can only infer possession, not create it.

Most thoughts are about you. Some are not. Most are possessive.
How is possession created?
Look at something you consider 'yours'. Anything. How is it yours? How does the item, person, thing become Jason's?


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