philipped this is your thread

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philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:51 am

Hi Philippe,

Welcome! Please tell me a little about how you came to LU and about your journey so far. You mentioned Vipassana meditation and Byron Katie's Work.

What are you looking for? What do you hope Liberation will do for you?

Cheers
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby philipped » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:17 pm

Hi Nona,

A friend of mine sent me a link to LU. After reading some of the threads, I was pretty excited about what is going on this forum! Understanding the truth of who we are as been an endeavor of mine for about 8 years now. I have mainly practiced Vipassana meditation. I sit daily and have about a year worth of silent retreat experience. While my meditatoin practice has been invaluable in understanding myself better, in making better choices, in creating more space for my thoughts and emotions, I often have the sense that my project is still a self-improvement project. I'd like to bring an end to that!

I have also been involved in NVC (non-violent communication). This has been very useful to get more in touch with my feelings and needs. This has helped calm my mind a bit and in turn bring more depth to my meditation.

I currently work with an IFS (Internal Family System) therapist, who has also been very helpful in helping me to be more accepting of all my parts, the polarization between my parts, etc.

But while NVC and IFS have been very useful from a daily life perspective in dealing with myself and other people and have brought some peace of mind, they won't do anything about me getting insights into no-self.

I have gone to one of Byron's workshop and have done a few worksheets. My wife is interested in it and we work sometimes together. I really like the method, as it really undercuts my believes. I see to which degree I can sometimes see my thoughts as coming and passing in meditation, but how much I still believe the content at the same time. The Work has been helpful in that regard.

When I started meditation, I had a very deep connection with it. I think it's because I had and still have the sense that it will get me to understand a larger truth than I can see now. So that's what I am looking for. Understand the truth of who I really am and who we really are, at large.

When I started practicing, I had all kind of hopes about what Liberation (I tend to use more the word "awakening" myself) would do for me. I would be able to respond to all people's needs, people would love me, etc. I gave up on that a while ago, or to some extend at least. It's so easy to fool myself. On a conscious level, I think I gave up, only to find out later that my behavior says otherwise :-) Now, I hope that Liberation will help me go beyond my fears and anxieties. But it seems that it might need to be the opposite: I need to face my fears and anxieties to get to Liberation. Not sure... I also hope that Liberation will give me more choice. Instead of being driven by my wants, by what's pleasant, I'd like to be able to make the choice that's the most appropriate for the moment.

I am very grateful that you agreed to work with me. Thanks a whole bunch!

Best,

Philippe

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:48 pm

I currently work with an IFS (Internal Family System) therapist, who has also been very helpful in helping me to be more accepting of all my parts, the polarization between my parts, etc.
Your therapist may not be comfortable with what we do here. i don't want to add to any confusion.
This one's job is to guide you to see there is no 'you', no parts, at all. You may want to wrap it up with therapy and come back?

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby philipped » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:42 am

I really doubt that my therapist would care. I am there totally by choice. He has been helpful in making sense of the different thought streams I had. I would stop IFS cold if needed as I care much more about liberation than figuring out my different parts! Who knows what will be left after liberation!

Speaking of parts, I understand that they are a concept. In my view, it is a useful concept to get a better understanding of my reactions, the arising of my emotions, etc. They do point to a definite experience. The way we want to conceptualize this experience is up to us...

In short, I much prefer to go on working with you and on liberation than anything else.

Love,

Philippe

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:08 am

Thank you. i am happy to continue with you on that basis.

i will reply to your earlier post shortly.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:22 am

Thank you, Philippe! i am going to address your expectations first, as expectations have a habit of blocking us from SEEing even what is right under our nose!
So that's what I am looking for. Understand the truth of who I really am and who we really are, at large.
The truth is there is no "I" in reality. No need for 'understanding'. Understanding is THINKING about something; so far, this one has Never met an Awakened who got liberated by Thinking about it.
Here i will be asking you to report your actual experiences, not your thoughts about them.
I would be able to respond to all people's needs, people would love me, etc. I gave up on that a while ago, or to some extend at least. It's so easy to fool myself. On a conscious level, I think I gave up, only to find out later that my behavior says otherwise
Good noticing!! It is easy to fool ourselves in our thinking; in our actions less so.
Now, I hope that Liberation will help me go beyond my fears and anxieties. But it seems that it might need to be the opposite: I need to face my fears and anxieties to get to Liberation.
It is unquestionably the latter.
Fear is a defense mechanism that is present to protect something. Only by looking directly at the fear instead of hoping to avoid it can we look beyond it and see what it's trying to protect.
I also hope that Liberation will give me more choice. Instead of being driven by my wants, by what's pleasant, I'd like to be able to make the choice that's the most appropriate for the moment.
The making of choices is also an illusion. Neuroscience shows through MRI brain scans that "choices" are made physically, in the brain, up to 6 seconds before the subject is even aware he made a choice.

Every apparent "choice" you think you have made was exactly appropriate in that moment! Really. Only the thought that there is a 'you' that can choose, that can control 'your' life prevents you from seeing this.
I often have the sense that my project is still a self-improvement project. I'd like to bring an end to that!
Many seekers cling to the thought "self" in order to have something to "fix", to "improve". There is no self to be broken or require fixing.
they won't do anything about me getting insights into no-self.
There is no no-self, either. So nothing to get insights into.


So let's put aside your expectations or hopes for now, and get into it.

What comes up—feelings, thoughts, fears—when i say there is no 'you' in reality. None. Zero. Nada. No 'you' that runs 'your' life.
Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down here in writing.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby philipped » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:50 pm

Hello Nona,

Thank you for your willingness to go on!

Here is my reaction to your statement:
there is no 'you' in reality. None. Zero. Nada. No 'you' that runs 'your' life. Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down here in writing.
First, I fidget around with the editor, trying to get the quote to work. Uncomfortable to answer the question right away. When I focus on the question, there is a sense of disbelief. Then thoughts around the fact it is ridiculously to have such a feeling, that I should know better! Then some sadness, as if I was going to lose something. The sadness is felt in the chest, as a heaviness, than it comes up in the throat and gets stuck there, with some tension in my jaw and shoulders. The breath is short, I hesitate to re-read your statement.

I re-read it. I smile reading "None. Zero. Nada." Not sure why. Something about the paradox of living with the embodied feeling of being something and the intellectual understanding that it is not true.

Some frustration comes up. I really want to get it (even though you told me there is no need to understand, which makes sense), so actually I just realize that I want to SEE it. So the frustration is still here and is felt all over the body as a faint restlessness, vibration.

After a while, I have the thought: "How do I SEE it?" I am starting to get curious, but also at a lost about how to directly see that truth. Movement happens while typing, body sensations arise, I get frustrated again with this sense that the truth is right there and that I am completely blind. Tightness in the shoulders and the jaw.

I re-read your statement and my eyes spend more time on "There is no 'you' that 'runs' your life." I realize I have a harder time taking this in than the "There is no 'you' in reality", which for me is a bit more abstract. My mind scans my body and has the sense that this is my body. My mind is trying to make sense of your statement and is scanning it's past and current experience to see what it really means. Some anxiety arises. I stay with it. Writing these last words, the thought comes "Who stays with it?" I get somewhat confused, energy runs up my spine. The thought comes: "how am I doing?" Some embarrassment shows up. But the question remains, and my mind is looking for who stays with what arises. My attention goes to familiar body sensations, mainly the head, chest, places where the body feels the most solid. I feel agitated.

I sit quietly. I can see my thoughts come and go, sensations, etc. And the sense that "I" am aware of all that. I get stuck there.

Love,

Philippe

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:59 pm

Wonderful, clear reporting!!! Thank you!
thoughts around the fact it is ridiculously to have such a feeling, that I should know better!
Are you willing to experience raw emotions? To notice when they arise, look at them without judgment, allow the sensations simply to occur without resistance?
Having feelings and thoughts is like breathing; it's autonomic—you have no choice. Since they're going to arise anyway, investigate them! Do they have a message for you?
Something about the paradox of living with the embodied feeling of being something and the intellectual understanding that it is not true
Smiling here at that one. That paradox itches like crazy until SEEing resolves it forever.

And it's true: truth is right here, and simply overlooked. But don't beat Philippe up about it; we all were trained not to see it from babyhood.
The story of 'Philippe' was concocted by his parents and family when he was a baby, and added to by teachers, friends, and Philippe over time. And to be fair, they believed it too! By the time Philippe was 3 he had achieved 'separation' simply by accepting that the story of a separate Philippe was true. Before then, his entire experience was simply Life—no separation.
NOW we are questioning that previously unquestioned story: that there is a separate self in reality.
My mind scans my body and has the sense that this is my body.
'Your' mind? 'Your' body? Who/what is it that owns the body?

Simple pointer to truth:
1) Is a cup of tea in front of you A CUP, or a MY CUP?
Which is more true?
A CUP, or a MY CUP?
A body, or a MY body?

2) And how does a MY CUP become attached to a self?
How does possession happen, and what possesses? Check your experience.


Now lift a hand.
Move it right. Move it left. LOOK with the eyes in your head. Direct observation. Did a self move the hand? Move it again. LOOK.
Is it truer to say that the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

Can it be that we build a self-story about ownership and doer-ship entirely out of thought? Check it!

Looking forward to reading your full reportage!!!
love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby philipped » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:49 am

Hi Nona,
Are you willing to experience raw emotions? To notice when they arise, look at them without judgment, allow the sensations simply to occur without resistance?
Very honestly, I can have some resistance to experiencing raw emotions. My body automatically contracts in the face of most emotions. I very quickly experience tension in the jaw, chest and shoulders when unpleasant emotions arise. I tend to resist my experience in general. The way I work with this is to stay with the contraction and see if I can feel the emotion at the same time in the body.
1) Is a cup of tea in front of you A CUP, or a MY CUP?
Which is more true?
A CUP, or a MY CUP?
A body, or a MY body?
Definitely A cup. For the body, it's easy to say intellectually A body. But in truth, in terms of embodied experience, it does feel like MY body. When I investigate this in silence, places in the body feel more solid than others. I was going to write that they feel as "me". But on closer inspection, they feel as "me" when I think of them as "me". These thoughts are tricky! I'll investigate this more. Fun!
2) And how does a MY CUP become attached to a self?
How does possession happen, and what possesses? Check your experience.
Very appropriate question as I am in front of my computer, drinking tea. I stare at the cup and as long as I just stare, with no predominant thoughts, there is just this thing we call a cup. Then some anxiety rises up. Difficult to catch the thought that creates the anxiety. I grab the cup and drink out of it. If I don't pay attention to my thoughts, the movement is pretty impersonal, but just seeing the movement and the cup come to my mouth and back on the table makes me uncomfortable. It's too impersonal! I make a story quite quickly about it...

As long as I don't think of the cup as "my" cup, possession does not happen. The weird thing is that I don't like not to think that thought. Not so much because I want that cup, but more because what would I be without defining it as mine.

My body is reacting strongly to this little experiment. Lots of energy is coursing up my spine, which has been a familiar sensation lately in my meditation practice. It's difficult for me to let it just be. My body tends to contract around it, even thought the sensations tend to be pleasant.

Going back to your question "what possesses", I cannot in my direct experience find anything that possesses. Only my thoughts can create "possession".
Now lift a hand.
Move it right. Move it left. LOOK with the eyes in your head. Direct observation. Did a self move the hand? Move it again. LOOK.
Is it truer to say that the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?
The hand moved. I have this kind of experiences on a regular basis, where things just seem to happen without "me" being needed. They usually last a few seconds at most. And I always feel a bit freaked out, or anxious, or uncomfortable after they happened. It's as if "I" realized what was happening and pulled out of that experience. I am not quite clear about what's happening, to tell you the truth. Well, I am clear that there is not sense of I during the experience itself, but I am not clear on why I feel so anxious or have a need to pull out of that experience.
Can it be that we build a self-story about ownership and doer-ship entirely out of thought? Check it!
Yes, it definitely feels like it. The "problem" is that I cannot seem to be able to let go of the story or trust that everything will be fine without that story.

In any case, I'll investigate the arising of ownership and doing as closely as I can and I'll report back more on it. I like this stuff even if it spooks me at times :-)

Love,

Philippe

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:22 am

Very honestly, I can have some resistance to experiencing raw emotions.
Many of us who fled our bodily experience for a life in the mind have this resistance. Try this:
When emotions arise, check VERY carefully, and answer this: Except for my thoughts about it, am i okay in this moment? Check it!
i eventually set up an hourly chime that reminded me to check and ask. And so far, i have always been okay.
But on closer inspection, they feel as "me" when I think of them as "me". These thoughts are tricky!
Good noticing!! Yes! The experience, without the label "I", is just experience; with the label "I", it becomes "me".
I stare at the cup and as long as I just stare, with no predominant thoughts, there is just this thing we call a cup.
With no thought it's A cup; with a thought, it's MY cup. And this is true of every bit of 'ownership'. Watch for the thought that claims ownership. And not only does the thought claim ownership of items, it claims ownership of experiences! An event occurs; then mind attaches the label "I did it". Check it!!!
The weird thing is that I don't like not to think that thought. Not so much because I want that cup, but more because what would I be without defining it as mine.
And what would you be? Look at it! This is the door behind which the truth can be found. WHAT would you be?
Only my thoughts can create "possession".
Yes. It's only a thought. ALL possession, all ownership is only a thought.
I have this kind of experiences on a regular basis, where things just seem to happen without "me" being needed. They usually last a few seconds at most. And I always feel a bit freaked out, or anxious, or uncomfortable after they happened.
Have you noticed that breathing happens without a Breather? Every minute of every day breathing happens, whether you want it to or not! You don't send a signal to the diaphragm telling it to drop, to the ribs directing them to expand, to the lungs telling them to fill, to the blood cells sending them to the lungs to stock up on oxygen...all this happens without any 'you' in control at all!! Even when you're awake! And what about when you're asleep?
Do you drive a car? This one notices that frequently i arrive at my destination and realise i did not experience the journey; there was driving, but no Driver.
The "problem" is that I cannot seem to be able to let go of the story or trust that everything will be fine without that story.
The above is a story. It is only a thought. Really. Check it! In a thousand ways your life is living itself with no input from a 'you' at all. Walking happens. No 'you' to send signals to the muscles directing them to extend or flex the legs, shift the weight, anticipate the strike of sole on ground...seriously. The dishes wash themselves while Philippe is thinking of something else! Check it!

Life does not need you to 'trust' it; it is going on without your trust. You are alive, breathing, walking, doing dishes, all without needing to trust anything. You are totally supported by the life you do not trust: the chair supports your weight, and the floor supports the chair and the earth supports the floor. There is air to support breathing and surface to support walking. It's all there FOR you!!!

It’s simple—you look and see that all this is Life living itself. Existence living itself.
There is no “you” who is living this life. “You” is just a label.
A label, like a claim on experiences in reality. It’s just a pointer, a label, nothing more than that—and it doesn’t point to anything. You can see through it any time and nothing will change. Nothing. Life will continue to live itself. Nothing will change. There’ll just be the seeing of reality as it is happens. You will just stay the same as you are now—all the good and bad and all the other stuff.
It just that it’s not personal; there is no person 'you'; none. There is life happening in all these patterns. We use this label from our early years, and it’s so sticky that it seems if it falls away, I will disappear. Nothing will disappear. If you drop the notion that Batman exists, what disappears? What? Nothing. Because it never existed. Same here. Look.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby philipped » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:44 am

Hello Nona,

Thank you for going so thoroughly through my post. It's very helpful for me to see subtle, and not so subtle, identifications. It directs me to see where I hang on tight!
When emotions arise, check VERY carefully, and answer this: Except for my thoughts about it, am i okay in this moment? Check it!
i eventually set up an hourly chime that reminded me to check and ask. And so far, i have always been okay.
No doubt about this! But what happens is that some stories about my emotions are so entrenched that it's difficult for me to see them as such.
And not only does the thought claim ownership of items, it claims ownership of experiences!
Yes, I am definitely more prone to claiming ownership of experiences. The interesting part is that the claiming is more or less unconscious. It seems that I simply don't see the thoughts that make an experience "mine."
And what would you be? Look at it! This is the door behind which the truth can be found. WHAT would you be?
I would be the experience that is arising in this very moment. It's a bit difficult to wrap my mind around that. That's may be the point! I seem to have a fundamental resistance to this truth! I can understand it intellectually. I can recognize it my experience of, for example, just sitting in front of my computer. Body sensations arise and pass away. But there seems to be this background thought that I am aware of the experience. While the experience is not mine, I am the one who is aware of it. I am taking ownership of awareness. And the thought that leads to taking ownership is not easy to see as I am very identified with the role of the seeker, of the observer that is trying to find the truth...
Have you noticed that breathing happens without a Breather? Every minute of every day breathing happens, whether you want it to or not! You don't send a signal to the diaphragm telling it to drop, to the ribs directing them to expand, to the lungs telling them to fill, to the blood cells sending them to the lungs to stock up on oxygen...all this happens without any 'you' in control at all!! Even when you're awake! And what about when you're asleep?
Intellectually, I can only agree with you. When I check the rising and falling of the breath in my chest, I see it happens on its own. But when I follow the senstations, they seem to happen within a container and I identify with the container. Then I have the thought that this is just another story, just another concept. But the lingering felt sense of identification is still around. The next thought is then that this is just another experience and there is no need to take ownership of the identification process itself. My thinking mind does not seem to go much beyond that and so I just stay with the experience just as it is. After a while, thoughts like "something should happen", "some insight should arise out of this" come. I see how much the seeker is attached to these thoughts and your reminder in another post that there was no insight to be had.
The "problem" is that I cannot seem to be able to let go of the story or trust that everything will be fine without that story.

The above is a story. It is only a thought. Really. Check it!
Thanks for pointing that out. That's exactly the kind of thoughts I am so identified with I don't see them as not true.
It’s simple—you look and see that all this is Life living itself. Existence living itself.
There is no “you” who is living this life. “You” is just a label.
So, I look and I simply see experience unfolding: thoughts, emotions, sight, etc. In a way, as you say, it's simple. Yet there seems to be something that holds me back from accepting that simplicity. And that in itself is a story, but I don't know how not to hang onto it, how not to believe it. This "something" is not well defined. I close my eyes and scan my experience in this moment and it's very familiar. To some extend, it is as if I believed that this familiarity of experience was me. I feel frustrated because I seem to be missing the obvious!

I'll pay attention to my claiming ownership of my experiences in the coming days and will report more on that.

Love,

Philippe

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:39 am

Thank you for going so thoroughly through my post. It's very helpful for me to see subtle, and not so subtle, identifications. It directs me to see where I hang on tight!
Where it appears Philippe "hangs on tight" is to the thought that his Stories are thoroughly Entrenched; that he is entangled in them beyond extrication.
i can prove this is not true: he Notices that they are Stories. We can't be IN the story to SEE the story. He SEEs it; therefore he's not IN it.
So the question occurs, what is the Payoff for clinging to the Stories that he knows are Stories?
I would be the experience that is arising in this very moment.
Permit this one to point out that that is Exactly what Philippe is: experience arising in this moment. Life is experience arising, in each moment. Now. Now. Now.
The only reason this is not obvious to you, is you are blinded by your stories. When you are not Thinking, it is observable fact that there is only experience/life arising.
Body sensations arise and pass away. But there seems to be this background thought that I am aware of the experience.
Good Noticing!!! And how is the background thought experienced? Is it heard as a commentary? Or a conversation? Please describe it in detail.
I am taking ownership of awareness.
It's another thought which comes to claim ownership: that I am awareness.
Is an "I" actually necessary for awareness to be? Isn't awareness what is happening all the time, without any "I" to run it? Check it!
And the thought that leads to taking ownership is not easy to see
Actually, it's very easy to see. I recommend going about your day and watching how you attach an I. No particular agenda. Just noting the truth of how life is, and how you construct a self concept. Walking happens; mind attaches an "I did it". Speaking happens; mind attaches an "I did it". Experience occurs; I attaches a story. Like it always does. Check it!!
when I follow the senstations, they seem to happen within a container and I identify with the container.
Ah, the olde container trick.
I'll give you an excercise about direct perception. Tell me what you find.
--------
Close your eyes. With eyes closed, search for the boundary of you. Where do you end and where does the world begin?
With eyes closed, in your direct experience, how tall are you? How old? How many toes do you have?
Couldn't you be any shape? Can you feel a boundary between skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation?

Smell a rose or dogshit. Without thinking, without telling stories: Is there a you smelling the flower? Or is there only the experience of smell...

When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in your head?
Are you doing seeing? Or are the sights just there, without any boundary?


Look at all the sensations, thoughts, vision, and feelings that are occurring in experience right now. Put aside the intellect as much as you can and really get a feel for them. Expand into them and sense their dimensions. This is reality, this is where everything is happening, where everything exists. Can you trace it back to a separate entity, a self, that is either causing or projecting or creating this field of experience? Is there absolutely anything real that is able to exist outside of this field? Does a self exist within this field? Can a self be experienced? Check it!
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby philipped » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:50 am

Hey Nona!
So the question occurs, what is the Payoff for clinging to the Stories that he knows are Stories?
The first word that appear is control... Illusion of control... When I write that, there is a good amount of tension in my usual places. There is also frustration about needing that. There is some belief that to be a good person, I need control. Not quite clear, but something along those lines.
The only reason this is not obvious to you, is you are blinded by your stories.
I can only agree.
Good Noticing!!! And how is the background thought experienced? Is it heard as a commentary? Or a conversation? Please describe it in detail.
It's a jumble of thoughts. Together they weave this story of me. At this moment in my life, they tend to be a lot around my raw experience. A typical example would be having a thought about what just happened, something like: "See, there was no 'you' in what you just experienced." Could be about brushing my teeth, typing on the computer, drinking, hearing a sound, pretty much anything. Just writing that, I realize how many thoughts I have around trying to convince myself about the truth of my raw experience, that there is no 'I'. But it seems that these very thoughts give me this sense of existing as a separate entity. I also have thoughts around getting somewhere in terms of liberation. In general, I have a lot of thoughts around freedom, liberation, etc as this is my main focus in my life right now. And I identify with these thoughts a lot. I'll try to pay more attention to all these thoughts in the coming days.
Is an "I" actually necessary for awareness to be? Isn't awareness what is happening all the time, without any "I" to run it? Check it!
'I' am definitely not needed to be aware!
I recommend going about your day and watching how you attach an I. No particular agenda. Just noting the truth of how life is, and how you construct a self concept.
I'll do that.
Ah, the olde container trick.
I'll give you an excercise about direct perception. Tell me what you find.
I close my eyes and my attention goes first to the body. The boundary seems to be where the sensations end. A sound arise and the boundary expend to include the sound. The interesting part is that the boundary seems to be a conceptual image in my mind. Not really a thought, or may be something I could call a visual thought, but not a word thought. I don't end anywhere and the world does not start anywhere. It's all the same. Anxiety arises seeing that. My body contracts a bit. The breath gets shorter and my chest gets heavy.

I am not of any specific height. Heigth comes only if I think about it. There is no sense of any age. All sensations are timeless. I cannot tell how many toes I have without thinking about it.

There is just sounds, sensations, taste, not much smell right now, thoughts.

No me smelling the flower. No me doing the seeing. Just seeing (colors, shapes, etc.) Interestingly, when the seeing sees the body, anxiety arises again, the body contracts.
Look at all the sensations, thoughts, vision, and feelings that are occurring in experience right now. Put aside the intellect as much as you can and really get a feel for them. Expand into them and sense their dimensions. This is reality, this is where everything is happening, where everything exists. Can you trace it back to a separate entity, a self, that is either causing or projecting or creating this field of experience? Is there absolutely anything real that is able to exist outside of this field? Does a self exist within this field? Can a self be experienced? Check it!
So, when I do the experiment, I cannot experience a self. Then, I had a thought: "Yet, at still have a felt-sense of self." I saw the thought and it went away. I had my head bent, between my hands, somewhat puzzled by the thought. Then looking at my experience, I realize that I have at perceive a lot of my experience not directly, but through images of the experience. Not word thoughts, but image thoughts. When I had the head bent, with my hand holding it, I did not really experience the sensations, but there was clearly an image of me in that posture, and I was relating to that image, not to the direct experience. The sense of self seems to arise from that image, as it seems solid and unmoving and corresponds to images of me in the past. I want to pay a lot more attention to that.

That's it for tonight!

Cheers,

Philippe

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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby nonaparry » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:42 am

Oh Well Done!!! What beautiful reporting!!
So the question occurs, what is the Payoff for clinging to the Stories that he knows are Stories?
The first word that appear is control... Illusion of control... ... There is some belief that to be a good person, I need control.
So the payoff for clinging to untrue stories is another story. Is it true? Is it true that to be a 'good' person, to pass that judgment on the idea of Philippe, that there is an "I" that needs control??

Good luck with that, btw. Even though you look for a thousand years, you will only discover that 'control' is a story we attach to an experience, a label "I did it". Not only can you not control your experiences, you cannot control the goodness of a person, especially the goodness of an "I"; there is no "I" to be good or wicked.
a jumble of thoughts. Together they weave this story of me.
REally excellent noticing here!! Pay attention! A jumble of thoughts weaves a story of a 'me'. Does that 'me' exist in reality anywhere outside of thoughts??
it seems that these very thoughts give me this sense of existing as a separate entity.
It SEEMS they do. A SENSE of a separate entity. Notice the equivocal language you use; you *know* there is no separate self in reality, so you have to come up with vague language to describe the feeling that an imaginary 'self' is present. LOOK!
I have a lot of thoughts around freedom, liberation, etc as this is my main focus in my life right now.
Good! Those that BURN for it will do anything to see it. Keep burning; you're in the gate, if you only knew it.
'I' am definitely not needed to be aware!
Exactly. Notice that "I" is not needed anywhere in Philippe's experience; it is extraneous, "surplus to requirements". Check it!!
A sound arise and the boundary expend to include the sound. The interesting part is that the boundary seems to be a conceptual image in my mind. Not really a thought, or may be something I could call a visual thought, but not a word thought. I don't end anywhere and the world does not start anywhere. It's all the same.
That's IT.
I don't end anywhere and the world does not start anywhere. It's all the same.
You have SEEN it. Now understand the Enormity of what you experienced. There is no separate 'you' in reality; it's ALL the same. No separation. No others. Only ALL that is. Check it!
Anxiety arises seeing that. My body contracts a bit. The breath gets shorter and my chest gets heavy.
Fear is a protective mechanism; it rises to protect the 'self' from imminent annihilation. But too late!!!!! The self cannot be annihilated; it doesn't exist!!!!!!
There is just sounds, sensations, taste, not much smell right now, thoughts.
No me smelling the flower. No me doing the seeing. Just seeing (colors, shapes, etc.)
And that's all there ever was. Check it.
Interestingly, when the seeing sees the body, anxiety arises again, the body contracts.
Habit. Really. You SEE the truth, and you tell the story of contraction; isn't it true-er that there is expansion? That experience has Expanded so far that in relation it seems that body has contracted??? CHECK it!!
I cannot experience a self.
No. And you never will; there isn't one.
Then, I had a thought: "Yet, at still have a felt-sense of self."
Yes indeed. And sensations wouldn't lie. Or would they??

Here is an exercise in perception for you.
Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a large watermelon between your hands. Imagine it so vividly, that you feel its weight, shape, temperature, texture of the skin, its scent, the hollow sound when you knock on it. Hold it there, sensing it vividly. Got it?
Now open your eyes.
What happened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable?

Same with self.
I realize that I have at perceive a lot of my experience not directly, but through images of the experience. Not word thoughts, but image thoughts.
Yes. And that is how we have a feeling of separation. There is no separation in reality; we create the illusion of separation by retreating from our direct experience into thought/imagery.
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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philipped
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Re: philipped this is your thread

Postby philipped » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:39 am

Hello Nona,

Today was a difficult day; feeling achy, tired, confused and frustrated.
So the payoff for clinging to untrue stories is another story. Is it true? Is it true that to be a 'good' person, to pass that judgment on the idea of Philippe, that there is an "I" that needs control??
No, it's not true. But somehow I fall for that belief from time to time, or is it most of the time?
It SEEMS they do. A SENSE of a separate entity. Notice the equivocal language you use; you *know* there is no separate self in reality, so you have to come up with vague language to describe the feeling that an imaginary 'self' is present. LOOK!
I had to laugh when I read your comment. It's so true. I'll try to pay more attention to that.
Now understand the Enormity of what you experienced.
That's exactly it. There is a part of me that simply cannot take in the enormity of the experience. Just plain denial.
isn't it true-er that there is expansion?
That's interesting. Often times it seems that I don't allow the awareness to take in the fullness of the experience, or let it expand to it's full extend. I'll check into that.
What happened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable?
Nice way to illustrate your point. It's interesting to see how for the melon, it's easy to accept there was none. Just a mind creation. More difficult for the self. Habit, as you say.

Cheers,

Philippe


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