LL Curtis - This is your thread

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Ingen
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LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:12 pm

Hi Loralee,

would you tell me a bit about yourself- where on the journey you're at... What do you expect from this dialogue?

Thank you!

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Trinity
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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:59 pm

Hi! Thank you!

To answer your questions...

Where I am at on my journey:
Tired and at times Exhausted from seeking.

A bit about myself:
What information would be best for you to know?
(I am very "right brained", if that helps).
I live in the US, and I am on MST.

What I expect:
To see through this seemingly very real idea that I am Loralee - a fixed and separate entity.
To be facilitated by someone that is gentle, kind, nurturing, and patient. (I've only read a handful of processes. I was drawn to the style of Lori Ann and Mike - but like I say, have not really dug in to get everyone's style.)


Thank you! I feel really grateful for the gift of support that is so generiously offered here.

I posted on your FB page that I signed up with Scott Kiloby to do a weekly group with him that lasts for a month, and as I was pointed to LU just yesterday, I see I am feeling more of a pull to do this than Scott's group. I want to honor your request to only work on one thing at a time, which is very understandale. With that said, the decision hasn't come to me yet completely. My hunch is it will be this. :)

With Gratitude,
Loralee

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Ingen
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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:06 pm

Dear Loralee, if you want to do this here, you should give it all your energy. It might not take very long, and then you can help Scott do a group ;) But to do both things at the same time is probably not a good idea.

About choosing a guide: you never know what works beforehand. I might not have the style you prefer... but
it might also be that "gentle, kind, nurturing" doesn't get you out of your comfort zone. This here is about seeing through the illusion of self, not nurturing it.

The coincidence that brought us together here could be just right...

What do you think?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:04 pm

I agree.

My sense exactly. I don't know if I have read your processes. Is this your name "Ingen"?...

Doesn't matter...I say...Let's go for it!

I will email Scott and tell him to open up my spot.

I am ready whenever you are! :)

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:35 pm

Great, Loralee! I am looking forward to working with you.

Are you aware that this process will probably cause an irreversible change in how you see yourself (ha!) and the world? It might be scary at times – but maybe not. Putting up a warning sign here... I want you to know what you go into.

But from what you write I gather that you know what the game is about.

The rules are: Answer the questions with 100% honesty. Look for what is true for you in this moment. No second hand knowledge, put all concepts aside for now. Stay with the process, also if it gets uncomfortable.

And, post your answers at least once a day. If you don't know what to write, then write just this - I don't know.

Let's start. You write:
To see through this seemingly very real idea that I am Loralee - a fixed and separate entity.
What makes you think that you are a fixed and separate entity?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:43 am

Thank you! I am grateful to have you as my guide!

I understand and have carefully read your words, and thank you, and yes, I understand what I am getting into here! I am ready.

To answer honestly to your question - (I'll just list them as they come...)

I can see me (what I take myself to be) right here, typing on this keyboard. This body, these hands, the thoughts that sound like my voice, the internal nudgings that I wait for in answer to your question in what to say, (that seem to come from me from somewhere).

The feelings experienced in the body in a physical way. The breath, heart beating, sensations of internal and external movement.

The emotions.

Memories of me and my life in my mind. Images and sensations that represent the hopes and dreams, joys and sorrows of me - You know...my story.

A sense of familiararity that I associate as being me. (Perhaps this accociation is also connected up with the personality in some way).

Images in my mind that I see as myself.

People picking me out by name. "Hi Loralee...I am ______."

Subtle vibrations felt in the body and around the body.

A combination of senses both gross and subtle. The above mentioned - (the more gross), but also on a more subtle level...just a sense that I am.

You know...It is like there is this definitive 'thing' going on. If I were to interpret it, it would say something like..."This is what I am, how could I not be what is so clearly experienced as being so real and so verifiable in my experience."

Everything is experienced from here as me. Meaning...for example, right now, I just watched my cat walk into the hall. I am what noticed my cats movements. I see an outline of my body in the computer screen as I type. In a moment I'll heat up my coffee and drink it.

I am with me (all that I described above) everywhere I go.

When I stub my toe, I hurt. I feel it. Not the person next to me.

I think that about covers it.

:)

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:28 am

That was a thorough list, great! We'll work through all points.

Let's start with this:
Memories of me and my life in my mind. Images and sensations that represent the hopes and dreams, joys and sorrows of me - You know...my story.
Yes, I know. There is a story of "me". Was this the same story yesterday? 3 weeks ago? When you were a child? How many storys of "me" are there? Is it always the same story, no matter who you tell it to? Did you invent the story or was it told to you? Is it a true story?

Is there a you which is not story?

That should keep you busy a few hours :)

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:43 pm

Thanks a lot! (He He!)


Was this the same story yesterday, 3 weeks ago, when I was a child?:

As far as the contents/details of the story....No, the story-line changes.

BUT....

The subject of the story - Loralee...Yes. (She - (I) has changed physically, emotionally, intellectually and philosophically), but as the central character, I (Loralee) have not changed as the central character.


How many storys of "me" are there?

Countless...Innumerable.


Is it always the same story, no matter who you tell it to?

No, mostly it is used to get the most bang for my buck in some cases and less bang for my buck in others. In other words, it is a tool that is used for both subtle and gross manipulation depending on who I tell it to.


Did you invent the story or was it told to you?

Ok, so you got me here. (I was wondering how this was going to take 3 hours!)

Up until there were actual memories, I would have to say the story was told to me.

During the time where there were actually memories...I invented it, as in, I influenced it as far as how my beliefs and preferences drove the story. Meaning...I made the decision to do this instead of Scott's group, so you could say I invented this aspect of the story to play out...

But...I have to say, there is this little doubt presenting itself right now. It's like...hum mm...did I really choose that? If I remember it right, I actually waited for the choice.

~I'm find this a very intriguing question~

Ultimately I have no answer. I don't really truthfully know if I invented the story or not.
(Part of me wants to think I did, and the other part doesn't. Probably in relation to responsibility so it can be used to the best advantage. For example: "This terrible thing happened to me!" V.S. "Hey, look what I did!" (Ha Ha!)

Wow!


Is it a true story?
To be 100% truthful...No. No, because in the telling of it and retelling of it, it effects and changes it. It is malleable, not fixed, solid, or absolute in that it can be changed upon my interpretation of it.

But...
True in that it happened in some form of truth or untruth to the central character.


Is there a you which is not story?

Yes...there is.

(Brilliant!)

It is just simply outside of the story.

:)

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:04 am

You are really looking deeply into the questions, that's great.

The subject of the story - Loralee...Yes. (She - (I) has changed physically, emotionally, intellectually and philosophically), but as the central character, I (Loralee) have not changed as the central character.

What is real about the Loralee character? What is the difference between Loralee and, let's say Batman? (Now don't answer "superpowers!")
It is just simply outside of the story.
How is this "main character" you call "I" outside of the story?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:13 am

What is real about the Loralee character? What is the difference between Loralee and, let's say Batman? (Now don't answer "superpowers!")

He He!

Now this is messing with my head! :) I'm confused!

Ok...What is real about the Loralee Character?
Independent of the story...That I still exist. Unchanged. I have a direct knowing or intellegence of that fact born from direct experience.

The difference between me and Batman?
(I could have a lot of fun with this one!...But I'll be good.)

OK...

He's not real and I am.

But this is actually a great question because in ways we are the same on the level of story. I will say to this however is, that wherever I go, I go as this...Loralee. This main character is all I know in direct experience. This is the reality that I experience as being who I am.


How is this "main character" you call "I" outside of the story?

The How of it?...I don't know.
What is sensed or seen (in a way), however, is that it is the experiencer of the story. It is what the story happens to. The (I) called Loralee, is what knows the story of the story of Loralee.

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:02 am

Ok, you think you're better than Batman. ;) More real.
Ok...What is real about the Loralee Character?
Independent of the story...That I still exist. Unchanged. I have a direct knowing or intellegence of that fact born from direct experience.
So tell me now:
Is there direct experience of the past?
What is in your direct experience?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:31 pm

Wow!...Like that!...

Hum mm...

......I am not more real than Batman......

......................

...........

......

You got me there for a minute!


(it is oddly freeing to consider that)


Ok...


Is there direct experience of the past?

No. Not in a living way.

And, Yes...(only if you count 'direct experience' as the knowing in your experience that there is an experiencing of seeing in the mind's eye of the images, the hearing what ever was there to hear, and the experiencing of the emotions and sensations that accompany it).


What is in your direct experience?

(I wont bore you with the details!)

Delicious coffee though!

Specifically:

That which is here in alive, real-time experience, (meaning anything...everything here now). Which includes, (or could not happen without), the ability to notice what is here...in all its 'flavors' - both subtle and gross.

:)

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:55 pm

Is there direct experience of the past?
No. Not in a living way.

And, Yes...(only if you count 'direct experience' as the knowing in your experience that there is an experiencing of seeing in the mind's eye of the images, the hearing what ever was there to hear, and the experiencing of the emotions and sensations that accompany it).
You mean when you see memory (mental imagery) in your mind's eye? Remember we are talking about how real the Loralee character is compared with Batman. This mental imagery is, well... imaginary. It could just as well be that you are confounding a dream occurance with a real occurance. Or somebody has told you a very believable story over and over again, which has "come alive" so vividly in your imagination that you are confounding it with reality.
That which is here in alive, real-time experience, (meaning anything...everything here now). Which includes, (or could not happen without), the ability to notice what is here...in all its 'flavors' - both subtle and gross.
Don't think about it (...the ability to notice...). Just tell me what is in your direct experience. I actually would like to hear about the details. Very simple. How do you experience "delicious coffee?"

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:05 pm

I got confused, and may still be! :)

Bare with me here. (The below is my attempt to get clarity)...

From before -

So tell me now:
Is there direct experience of the past?

No. (Only as a memory experienced directly now).

You mean when you see memory (mental imagery) in your mind's eye?
The imagery is not in itself the real past. No! They are just images.


Remember we are talking about how real the Loralee character is compared with Batman.

Oh... (scratching head) I am a bit confused.

I notice that I am so separated (during this dialog) from Loralee as a real character that she doesn't seem to have any more substance than Batman. But then she still seems so real in life. I am wondering if it is how I am wording things that is setting it up this way. To be more clear: Talking about myself in third person separates 'her' from me, and makes her seem unreal.

And then it occurs: Who is the her and me? That is this dance that I see myself playing at the moment. (And in our conversations together).


This mental imagery is, well... imaginary. It could just as well be that you are confounding a dream occurance with a real occurance. Or somebody has told you a very believable story over and over again, which has "come alive" so vividly in your imagination that you are confounding it with reality.

Does confounding mean confusing?

What you say here is very possible.

Mildly...mildly, unsettling.

It makes sense though.

I have never considered that a dream (do you mean at night when the body is asleep?) could be confused with something that I thought was real.

I am swimming here. Meaning...it feels like I don't know what is up from down.


Don't think about it (...the ability to notice...). Just tell me what is in your direct experience.

The ability to notice seems natural. It just is there effortlessly. I don't know how I have the ability to notice.

(I may have misunderstood your question?!)

I actually would like to hear about the details. Very simple. How do you experience "delicious coffee?"

How do you describe green to a blind man? How do you explain to him what it is to see? This is what I am hitting into with this question.

The "How" of the "do" of the "I experience"...delicious coffee? very simply? .....

I just do.

As far as details of my experience of experiencing my coffee....

I see my cup. (it is my favorite, white, tactile, textured, yet simple).
I feel the movement of my arm reaching through space for the cup.
I feel the coldness of it as I move the cup to my lips.
I notice thoughts about the coffee being cold, and as I consider making a new cup, I experience through that thought the sensation of warm coffee...and continue on drinking.
The heat just came on and like a soft kiss, the air touches my skin.
The thought comes... "is this what Ingen means?"
and then..."I'll soon find out!"....

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:50 pm

whoops! *bear with me - not bare with me. he he


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