LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The separate personal identity is imputed into apparent existence by identifying with selected thoughts, feelings, and behaviours which arise within experience, as being an individual permanent "self".
What are you looking for at LU?
Assistance in seeing the above consistently and with clarity at the experiential level, so that there is a dropping off of the phenomenon of imputing the imagined self and identifying with and as it, so that No-Self becomes the lived experience.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointings and guidance regarding where and how to look. I am open to engaging with both established and novel tools that might assist in the dropping of the imagined self. I expect to be guided by one who is well established in the experience of No-Self. Satsang in the form of guided conversation.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
11 Vipassana courses, 2 Thai Forest tradition 10 day retreats. A few hundred hours of listening to teachers such as Rupert Spira, Mooji, Paul Hedderman and Tony Parsons.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
Self Banishing Rituals
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
Hello deesee and welcome to the LU forum!
Thank you for your introduction.
I'm Sandra and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
It seems to me that you are under the assumption that you aren't experiencing "no self" right now? Does this mean that you are experiencing a self?
Let's say we are in the same room and that I ask you to describe this self to me - the self that you think you are.
To describe something, you need to look at this something, as a way to check how this thing is, yes?
Have a go at it. Look to what surrounds you and find the thing that is supposed to be you, the entity "deesee", and describe it to me.
Looking forward to our conversation,
S
Thank you for your introduction.
I'm Sandra and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
It seems to me that you are under the assumption that you aren't experiencing "no self" right now? Does this mean that you are experiencing a self?
Let's say we are in the same room and that I ask you to describe this self to me - the self that you think you are.
To describe something, you need to look at this something, as a way to check how this thing is, yes?
Have a go at it. Look to what surrounds you and find the thing that is supposed to be you, the entity "deesee", and describe it to me.
Looking forward to our conversation,
S
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
Hi Sandra. Thank you for taking this on, and let's see how it goes.
It seems to me that No-Self covers a few slightly different bases, so let's see if we are on the same page.
First there is the fact that the "self" is a construct. The product of conditioning. A kind of Frankenstein creature that is summoned into existence by stimuli and assembled ad-hoc by whatever elements of experience presented can be fitted together semi-convincingly.
That's fairly easy to see through, at least intellectualy, because it can be picked to bits and seen to be a construct.
Related to that, is the experience that this "self" is actually imputed or reified from selected elements of the entire experiential field; consciousness, perceptions, conceptions, evaluations, and reactive patterns. The whole of arising experience is one thing, and the separate identity self is part of the conceptual overlay.
Then, there is the No-Self that understands that all the dreams of individual manifestation are being dreamed by the same thing. There is no self that incarnated, is born, or that dies. There are clusters of memories and reactive patterns that could imagine themselves to have individual continuity, but that's ultimately a delusion.
Most of my understanding of the above has experiential basis, but my current experience is that I still think, feel and behave as if I am the personal identity self. Lots of the reactivity, attachments and beliefs have lessened in power, which is good. I'm kind of waiting for the unitive state to become the lived experience, but kniw that since the individual is a delusion, there is nothing it can actually do but get in the way.
There's no specific separate single entity in this experience, arguably other than the awareness, which appears to be somehow linked to a catalogue of memories and a map of reality. That awareness feels very personal, no matter how it manifests, but is far beyond any individual specific form or experience. "i" have been with that awareness in other realms and other body-mind complexes.
In this apparent recurring sequential human form experience called Donald, a process keep arising that includes thoughts, beliefs, interpretations, and behaviours. Identification keeps arising as part of this process, and things are believed about self and the world. Narratives arise and are half-believed. Beliefs arise and are half-believed.
Whatever arises in experience, IS actually reality, as it is.
When those arising phenomenon include beliefs and interpretations, such as the belief that there is a separate personal self that is responsible for what arises and in control of choices, that is my real experience.
Increasingly there is awareness that the self is a habitual imputation or overlay on selected elements of experienced phenomena, but I still find myself making plans, believing things.
Something is waiting for the process of selfing to drop off and unity to be unveiled as what was always there.
Knowing also that there is nothing "i" can do about it, and that the self is a punchline to the universes practical joke on itself. Feels like the joke is still on me, despite there being a fair degree of awareness that this is all a construct and of how that construct functions.
It seems to me that No-Self covers a few slightly different bases, so let's see if we are on the same page.
First there is the fact that the "self" is a construct. The product of conditioning. A kind of Frankenstein creature that is summoned into existence by stimuli and assembled ad-hoc by whatever elements of experience presented can be fitted together semi-convincingly.
That's fairly easy to see through, at least intellectualy, because it can be picked to bits and seen to be a construct.
Related to that, is the experience that this "self" is actually imputed or reified from selected elements of the entire experiential field; consciousness, perceptions, conceptions, evaluations, and reactive patterns. The whole of arising experience is one thing, and the separate identity self is part of the conceptual overlay.
Then, there is the No-Self that understands that all the dreams of individual manifestation are being dreamed by the same thing. There is no self that incarnated, is born, or that dies. There are clusters of memories and reactive patterns that could imagine themselves to have individual continuity, but that's ultimately a delusion.
Most of my understanding of the above has experiential basis, but my current experience is that I still think, feel and behave as if I am the personal identity self. Lots of the reactivity, attachments and beliefs have lessened in power, which is good. I'm kind of waiting for the unitive state to become the lived experience, but kniw that since the individual is a delusion, there is nothing it can actually do but get in the way.
There's no specific separate single entity in this experience, arguably other than the awareness, which appears to be somehow linked to a catalogue of memories and a map of reality. That awareness feels very personal, no matter how it manifests, but is far beyond any individual specific form or experience. "i" have been with that awareness in other realms and other body-mind complexes.
In this apparent recurring sequential human form experience called Donald, a process keep arising that includes thoughts, beliefs, interpretations, and behaviours. Identification keeps arising as part of this process, and things are believed about self and the world. Narratives arise and are half-believed. Beliefs arise and are half-believed.
Whatever arises in experience, IS actually reality, as it is.
When those arising phenomenon include beliefs and interpretations, such as the belief that there is a separate personal self that is responsible for what arises and in control of choices, that is my real experience.
Increasingly there is awareness that the self is a habitual imputation or overlay on selected elements of experienced phenomena, but I still find myself making plans, believing things.
Something is waiting for the process of selfing to drop off and unity to be unveiled as what was always there.
Knowing also that there is nothing "i" can do about it, and that the self is a punchline to the universes practical joke on itself. Feels like the joke is still on me, despite there being a fair degree of awareness that this is all a construct and of how that construct functions.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
Hi Donald, good morning and thank you for your post.
- hearing Paul Hedderman's voice
- seeing bits of hair
- seeing hands move over the keyboard
- seeing clothes moving in a clothesline
- sensing a pain in the back
- moving head
- thinking about drinking coffee
Have a go at it. Describe what is arising in experience, as it is.
Take care,
S
You're welcome :)Thank you for taking this on, and let's see how it goes.
Fortunately we don't need to be in the same page for you to see what I'm pointing at. These conversations are like tuning a piano. You play a note and I ask a question and eventually we will resonate, even if we aren't exactly in the same page. I'm not here to teach you something, my role is to make you look to what is here now, to check if you are a separate self or not.It seems to me that No-Self covers a few slightly different bases, so let's see if we are on the same page.
Yes. Can you describe what is arising in experience right now? I'm going to describe what's going on here, so that you can see what I'm looking for:Whatever arises in experience, IS actually reality, as it is.
- hearing Paul Hedderman's voice
- seeing bits of hair
- seeing hands move over the keyboard
- seeing clothes moving in a clothesline
- sensing a pain in the back
- moving head
- thinking about drinking coffee
Have a go at it. Describe what is arising in experience, as it is.
Take care,
S
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
Warm sensations on upper body.
Mental sense of the thing you call it when you can't think of what to say.
Visual perception, including screen and limbs and blurry room.
Sense of being.
Bird sounds through open window.
Mental sense of the thing you call it when you can't think of what to say.
Visual perception, including screen and limbs and blurry room.
Sense of being.
Bird sounds through open window.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
Well done! How about a self Donald? Is it possible to experience a self?
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
There is a sense of self that often attaches to various perceptions, thoughts, feelings, and personal narratives.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
If you focus in what is going on - what is present here now - when you notice this sense of self, would you say you're noticing sensations (that are so familiar that they seem to be what you are) or a real self that can be sensed?
We are being very focused and I lost the feeling of what may be going on in your side. I wonder how you're feeling about this line of inquiry. Can you please share what's going on with you? Do you have comments you would like to share with me about what we are doing or my way of guiding? Do you have doubts?
We are being very focused and I lost the feeling of what may be going on in your side. I wonder how you're feeling about this line of inquiry. Can you please share what's going on with you? Do you have comments you would like to share with me about what we are doing or my way of guiding? Do you have doubts?
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
I'm listening to a lot of Tony Parsons at the moment, which is very hardcore and uncompromising. He talks about the dropping of the self being an energetic experience, where the energy of the "self" drops away. That's not been my experience as yet.
It's fairly clearly seen, most of the time, that the identity is a construct with no objective truth. It arises and passes, and is made up out of combinations of sensations, beliefs, narratives, evaluations and reactive patterns.
The sense of self that identifies with these objects or processes is known to exist independently from all specific objects and processes, as it has been experienced in so many different constructs, including other complete body-mind complexes and apparent alternate realities and other realms.
I know experientially that I am not just this body-mind or personality. However life is set-up in such a way as to demand identification with the identity; work, taxes, family, friends, society as a whole all wants you to be an identity and those demands are magnetic to the sankaras or reactive patterns.
So the "self" identification still arises, but not to the degree that it used to before I started vipassana and "letting go" practices, which have been of great benefit in exposing the construct as it really exists in experience and in reducing reactivity.
I still get the idea that I am in control and making choices as an identity, or separate self. It feels that way much of the time. Not all. Often it is completely obvious that whatever is happening is just happening.
I have found your pointing very useful and effective, and I am also hoping to evaluate the processes offered on this site with a view to pointing others this way or using any pointings that are show to be effective to help people myself.
It's fairly clearly seen, most of the time, that the identity is a construct with no objective truth. It arises and passes, and is made up out of combinations of sensations, beliefs, narratives, evaluations and reactive patterns.
The sense of self that identifies with these objects or processes is known to exist independently from all specific objects and processes, as it has been experienced in so many different constructs, including other complete body-mind complexes and apparent alternate realities and other realms.
I know experientially that I am not just this body-mind or personality. However life is set-up in such a way as to demand identification with the identity; work, taxes, family, friends, society as a whole all wants you to be an identity and those demands are magnetic to the sankaras or reactive patterns.
So the "self" identification still arises, but not to the degree that it used to before I started vipassana and "letting go" practices, which have been of great benefit in exposing the construct as it really exists in experience and in reducing reactivity.
I still get the idea that I am in control and making choices as an identity, or separate self. It feels that way much of the time. Not all. Often it is completely obvious that whatever is happening is just happening.
I have found your pointing very useful and effective, and I am also hoping to evaluate the processes offered on this site with a view to pointing others this way or using any pointings that are show to be effective to help people myself.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
I can see the separate self as a construct, but there is still the idea that it has some kind of truth to it, even if that is a changing and larger truth that contains all of the experiences and arisings, rather than a more specific personal identity.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
Hi Donald!
Thank you for your 2 posts! If my below questions are too much to handle right now, just pick one or two and see where they take you. Sometimes I get carried away.
Can you please stop listening to Tony Parsons and others like him for the time being? Those videos will still be around latter on.
Can you give me a specific example of something that happens in your day that makes you see that the identity is a construct?
If this self exists in any form, shape, container, experience, arising, it is possible to find it. So have a go looking for it. Is it possible to find a self? To smell a self? To touch a self? To see a self? Do you find any evidences that there is a self here now? Let me know if you find something that IS a REAL self.
Take care,
S
Thank you for your 2 posts! If my below questions are too much to handle right now, just pick one or two and see where they take you. Sometimes I get carried away.
At LU we recommend that while these conversations are going on, you stop listening to other people and reading about these subjects. It is very unlikely that your experience will be similar to Tony Parsons. Or maybe it could be similar but the way you would think about it and describe it, could be different so you would think you both had a different experience. Anyway, this isn't about having a no self or nondual or energetic experience, it's more about seeing if there is a separate self having any kind of experiences. You could have the most amazing "spiritual" experiences and still believe in the existence of a separate you. Experiences don't prove a thing, they're just experiences and what is going on changes constantly. In a day, we can have a huge huge bunch of experiences with different flavors. That's how "lifing" (being life) is :)I'm listening to a lot of Tony Parsons at the moment, which is very hardcore and uncompromising. He talks about the dropping of the self being an energetic experience, where the energy of the "self" drops away. That's not been my experience as yet.
Can you please stop listening to Tony Parsons and others like him for the time being? Those videos will still be around latter on.
It's fairly clearly seen, most of the time, that the identity is a construct with no objective truth. It arises and passes, and is made up out of combinations of sensations, beliefs, narratives, evaluations and reactive patterns.
Can you give me a specific example of something that happens in your day that makes you see that the identity is a construct?
What let's you know that you are not just this body-mind or personality experimentally? Right now, how is this experienced?I know experientially that I am not just this body-mind or personality.
How is this "self" identification experienced?So the "self" identification still arises, but not to the degree that it used to before I started vipassana and "letting go" practices, which have been of great benefit in exposing the construct as it really exists in experience and in reducing reactivity.
Can you give me an example of something that makes you get the idea that there is a self in control? Don't ponder around the ideas that there is control or there isn't control - both ideas can be considered has true or untrue as any idea can be. Try to notice if there is a self here right now, that can have control over life. If you look for this self do you find such a thing?I still get the idea that I am in control and making choices as an identity, or separate self. It feels that way much of the time. Not all. Often it is completely obvious that whatever is happening is just happening.
Wonderful :)I have found your pointing very useful and effective, and I am also hoping to evaluate the processes offered on this site with a view to pointing others this way or using any pointings that are show to be effective to help people myself.
Try looking for a separate self the same way you would look for your house keys if they were misplaced.I can see the separate self as a construct, but there is still the idea that it has some kind of truth to it, even if that is a changing and larger truth that contains all of the experiences and arisings, rather than a more specific personal identity.
If this self exists in any form, shape, container, experience, arising, it is possible to find it. So have a go looking for it. Is it possible to find a self? To smell a self? To touch a self? To see a self? Do you find any evidences that there is a self here now? Let me know if you find something that IS a REAL self.
Take care,
S
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
More than one question at a time is a bit overwhelming, so I've decided to approach it bit by bit.
This is a specific example, but this could be equally applied to any moment of experience when the body-mind is active. It is always a construct. Experience is always built out of the aggregates as they arise, sustain and pass.
The specific noticing of the construct also arises within the aggregates of experience, as another manifestation of them. The identification with identity also arises within the aggregates of experience.
By the aggregates, I am referring to the buddhist skandas or the five aggregates or heaps; consciousness of experience, perceptions of the six sense doors, conceptions or a map of reality which relate to the perceptions, interpretations of the conceptualised perceptions as being positive, negative or neutral and the reactive patterns or volitional tendencies which are triggered by those.
I'm making breakfast and a friend enters the room in a bad mood. Sensations arise which are uncomfortable, and a narrative begins in the mind which explains his state and projects that he is going through a learning experience. There is a sense of self attached to these processes, which reflects back on the awareness as an identity, with a map of reality and a history, a past and interpretations of what is happening now.Can you give me a specific example of something that happens in your day that makes you see that the identity is a construct?
This is a specific example, but this could be equally applied to any moment of experience when the body-mind is active. It is always a construct. Experience is always built out of the aggregates as they arise, sustain and pass.
The specific noticing of the construct also arises within the aggregates of experience, as another manifestation of them. The identification with identity also arises within the aggregates of experience.
By the aggregates, I am referring to the buddhist skandas or the five aggregates or heaps; consciousness of experience, perceptions of the six sense doors, conceptions or a map of reality which relate to the perceptions, interpretations of the conceptualised perceptions as being positive, negative or neutral and the reactive patterns or volitional tendencies which are triggered by those.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
What let's you know that you are not just this body-mind or personality experimentally? Right now, how is this experienced?
Right now, this is experienced through memories of being in other states of existence and other body-mind complexes. Memories can't really be validated objectively as relating to an actual past, and the past does not exist in actual experience, but exists only as part of the samjna, or map of reality. So my map of reality tells me that there have been many experiences which demonstrate experientially that i am not only this particular body-mind construct.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
How is this "self" identification experienced?
The self identification is experienced as identification with experiential processes such as perceptions, feelings, interpretations and behaviors. It seems to be the adhesion of the sense-of-self to these processes or objects of perception which arise within awareness.
Re: Self Banishing Rituals
I decide to have a cup of tea and then make a cup of tea. I decide to have honey in it and put honey in it. This tends to be interpreted as there being a self deciding and controlling these activities.Can you give me an example of something that makes you get the idea that there is a self in control? Don't ponder around the ideas that there is control or there isn't control - both ideas can be considered has true or untrue as any idea can be.
Try to notice if there is a self here right now, that can have control over life. If you look for this self do you find such a thing?
Nope. There are only some arising and passing processes which may include thoughts or urges to take action or describe what should be done or how things are. The idea that there is a single separate self who has actual control over what really happens is just another idea.
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