Locked in a corner

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Barbro
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Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:37 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I intellectually understand there is no self, but it does not stay true in my experience/seeing. The exercise in LU (p. 64) showed me clearly how stressed I usually am. Writing what was experienced without an I in front of it was such a relaxation!

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to enjoy life. I fear that all this searching for truth has locked me in a corner. I know I´m missing out on something (seeing that “I” do not exist), but there is no seeing that without help.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clear seeing and relaxation in life. Enjoying what is. My experience of life today is that I´m being more or less chased by this voice in my head (I) from the moment I open my eyes in the morning until bedtime.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Some meditation, yoga, Qigong. Fifteen years of reading: A Course in Miracles, David Carse, Tony Parsons, Sailor Bob Adamson, Nisargadatta Maharj, Alan Watts, Jed Mc Kenna etc. Tried to practice what I understood of what I read in everyday life with no lasting “success”.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?:
10

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Ilona
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:07 am

Hi barbro,
Welcome to lu forum. We can have a conversation and see what reveals itself.

You say you want to enjoy life. What is in the way of enjoying life? What should be different for you to be able to enjoy life?
What is not enough?
Be fully open and honest here, that's what this inquiry requires. Write what feels true in your experience. I see you have studied a lot why other people say, not it's time to speak from your own understanding and experience. So let's agree on no philosophy here, but only your own words about your own life.

Looking forward to work with you

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Barbro
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:23 am

Hi Ilona,
Thank you so much for corresponding with me!
Here are the answers to your questions:
You say you want to enjoy life. What is in the way of enjoying life?
There is a “cold observer” that lives my life and sees that there is nothing in it worth living for. Of course I can see a beautiful nature scenery and think it is nice, or enjoy talking to someone. But I´m always on my way to the next moment. The “observer” thinks this is not enough or is afraid of being in the way (being rejected by the person I talk to).
What should be different for you to be able to enjoy life?
What is not enough?
I´ve always felt like a fake, like I´m playing a role. When I read all these books about non-duality or LU there is a relaxation since I see that that I actually am playing a role. The problem is that I don`t seem to be able to get rid of the role-player (I). The relaxation and knowing that life just is lasts as long as I´m reading the book, but doesn´t stay with me in everyday life.
When I received your mail there was intense fear in my chest and a thought “I´m probably a hopeless case”. Some tears came and then as I started typing these feelings were gone. There is still some nervousness about not being able to get this.
With love
Barbro

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Ilona
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:11 pm

Thank you for reply, this is a good start!
The observer, where is it? Can you see, taste, smell, touch, hear him? Is it a sensation, feeling, thought?
Can you pinpoint that observer and how it is showing up and give me a precise description of what you find.
Is the observer here now?

Let's start digging.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Barbro
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:09 pm

Hi Ilona,
Thank you for answering so rapidly!
The observer, where is it?
It is a thought and with it comes feeling of heaviness and sadness. Or maybe it works the other way around… When I´m not active doing something, there is focus on thoughts. When emotions come that I judge as bad or negative the observer says there is something wrong with me compared to others that seems content with what is! My god, what a loop!
The observer is never here when I´m occupied/absorbed in “doing”. Writing and answering your questions is doing – so no, the observer isn´t here right now!
Not feeling “hopeless case” for the moment. Have jumped into this no matter what now!
Thank you!

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Ilona
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:35 pm

You say that observer is a thought. I am going to ask you to check and tell me, what a thought can do? Can itjudge, can it think, can a thought do anything?
Can a thought decide what is good or bad?

What is actually going on with the observer. Is there something/someone outside of experience looking at it? If so, when?

Don't think too much about it, but take a look, is observer more than a thought? Is observer a special thought?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Barbro
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:20 am

No, a thought cannot judge or think. In my experience, it can trigger feelings though. A thought cannot decide what is good or bad, it has no power in and of itself. It is just a thought passing by.
When I first read the question about the observer I went totally blank. When I took another look, I saw that the observer is the I, or the belief in it.
The observer is within the experience, like now saying; Did I really take a good and honest look, did I miss something?
I can see that the observer is a thought, the thought that helps me hide who I am - nobody. There is some relaxation in the chest seeing that…
Love
Barbro

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Ilona
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:27 am

Nice!
Let's look closer at how the observer/ witness gets created. It's all to do with the way that our language works. Language is a code, like a computer program. See how it works in actuality.
Look around slowly, let attention rest on objects and notice how story comes up. Mind labels everything that attention sits on. And language is made up of nouns and verbs and other structural parts. The nouns are assumed to be objects.

So if you look at breathing. You can see that breathing is happening. You can see that labelling the movement 'I am breathing' does not change the movement. Breathing is happening no matter if I label is used or not. Same with everything else- sitting, reading, scratching an itch, walking, talking, witnessing, observing, thinking... is there I that is doing all this? Is there a breather, thinker, witness, walker, talker...? Do you become a breather if the breath is conscious? Do you become a walker, a sitter? Is there an experiencer outside of experience happening?

Play with this for the day and write what you notice.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Barbro
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:38 pm

Went to the bathroom after having read your last post. Asked myself if there is a toilet-sitter just because there is sitting in the bathroom. The absurdity of this thought made me smile… Continued by asking myself if there is an observer just because observing is happening. Of course, there isn´t – it is just seeing what is! Sometimes seeing what is trigger a lot of old thoughts, which trigger emotions…
Curiously enough I never thought about the observer as being the same thing as the witness. The observer was seen as the one watching my dishonesty – the one haunting me for being a fake and fraud. And there was a belief that the witness is the true self. And now you are pointing to it as just another experience. Observing=witnessing=experiencing! Hm…

Is there a smoker? Or does smoking happen? There is an I-thought luring in the background, waiting for me to get this, and then “I” will fix this thing about smoking – be a non-smoker. How could I fix anything if there is no I! That is hard to accept since there has been much struggle and hard work through life, and thoughts about it being worth while eventhough that was not really the experience.

“Mind labels everything attention sits on… Witnessing is happening no matter if a label is used or not… Is there an I that is doing this?”
Do I become a breather if the breath is conscious? No. Do I become a witness if seeing is aware? No.
I see what language is doing! “Seeing is aware” is a phrase that has been coming up in all this non-dual books and I didn´t get it. I thought I missed something (special) but it´s just an everyday experience! There is no I doing anything. I can see that, and there is some relaxation but no big aha. Just plain old experience.

Love
Barbro

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Ilona
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:52 pm

Yes yes yes, you are looking and seeing through language!
Here is an exercise for you. Do it here or on paper and watch how description affect what is happening. Write to me what you notice.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Much love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Barbro
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:20 am

Hi Ilona,
There is a relaxation in the chest when writing without the I. Neither one of the ways is more true than the other – they are both experience. The one without I is closer to direct experience though. There is more labeling when I is here.
I did this exercise when I read the LU, and the difference in relaxation when writing without I was striking then. The relaxation didn´t last though. It doesn´t last today either. I can feel the tension coming back as I try to “figure” this out. I feel like I´m chasing myself…
I can see that there is work being done=struggle as long as the I is here. But there is still a belief in I here. I is a label of a center, but there is no center! There is just life! I can see that, but that is just a labeling of fact. Not an experience. There is still belief!
Thoughts/plans comes up of just seeing and following life – and there is a follower (?!) – the I. Just seeing life is relaxing but empty and void of everything (happiness, joy) and scaring.

Lots of feelings of sadness, stress and strain going on.

Love
Barbro

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Ilona
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:32 am

thank you for taking time to do the exercise. it was to demonstrate, that experience is happening no matter how it is labeled. experience is and labeling is included. it's not a label that perceives, it's not a label that is a center of experience.

so here is something for you to look at
there is nothing to figure out.
nothing to understand.
nothing that mind can grasp or hold on to.
there is noticing what is already here. which is being, aware-ing, knowing of what is happening.
There is still belief!
there is a belief, till it isn't. at some point it becomes empty. it does not compute anymore to think that there is i that is separate from the whole movement, in charge of what is happening.

what is that believes?
is there a believer?


sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Barbro
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:18 pm

Thank you for corresponding so gently with me!

there is nothing to figure out. OK nothing to understand. OK nothing that mind can grasp or hold on to. OK there is noticing what is already here. which is being, aware-ing, knowing of what is happening. Yes, and for the moment there is no resisting what is, and if there is resisting, then that is what is.
what is that believes? Nothing. is there a believer? No, can´t find it.

Observations: There is fear of no thing – there is fear – there is tension.
What is here right now? There is relaxing – there are sounds – there is calm – there is silence and sounds within it.

Slowly relaxing – no fighting with what is.

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Barbro
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Barbro » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:28 am

After writing you yesterday there was a relaxation, kind of pouring down along my back and chest. Went to bed and woke up this morning feeling somewhat more relaxed than previous days.
When noticing what is here there is just the same old stuff. Being – thoughts of not liking what is, thoughts of getting myself going and it will feel better. There was/is an expectation that things should have felt lighter...
Going for a walk in the snowfall and and then off to work.
Love
Barbro

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Ilona
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Re: Locked in a corner

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:39 pm

nice to hear about relaxation. all that tension is created by the mind trying to figure this and that out is exhausting. it is not helping really. so it's ok to relax and stop trying. life feels different if we stop pushing and pulling and allow all to be as it pleases. it IS and that's that.

leaving all hopes and fears and expectations aside you can always look at what actually is and rest in that knowing.
you can see how one life expresses as all the apparent forms and nothing is separate or connected to anything else, it's all one happening/ being.

are there any separate selves in other human bodies? what do you see when you look at people?

sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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