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PaulineF
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Home

Postby PaulineF » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:26 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
Curiosity. There's the intellectual knowing that's teetering on the edge of direct knowing - I'm curious about a process that suggests it can deliver that push 'over the edge'. The final understanding.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
Honestly, I'm not sure what's expected. Dialogue, deep enquiry, direct experience possibly - like, 'I can see through this now, there it is.' Nothing fancy, nothing grand, just the 'Ah, OK. So that's it'

What is your past experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Dipped in and out of a number of practices over the years ... mindfulness, meditation ... drawn towards non-duality for while (Tony Parsons et al), 'enjoy' Buddhism. Now meditate regularly.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?:
10

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Bill
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Re: Home

Postby Bill » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:36 am

Hello Pauline,

Im Bill and I'm glad you're here.
Let's go ahead with this if you're still around. I apologize for how long you've been waiting.
It gets busy here and we never seem to have enough guides...

Let's get started.

Two questions to start out:

1) What would you like to have happen here... in your own real words.
What do you want as a result of being here doing this dialogue?

2) What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no 'you' in real life; none.... zero.
That if looked for, it can't be found.
That there's just life... flowing. Just what is.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.

Note - please take your time with these and answer in your own words, from your own direct experience.


Bill

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PaulineF
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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:40 am

Hi Bill - Thanks for reaching out, I'm looking forward to this exploration and appreciate your guidance :) I'll investigate these questions and respond when I can today, likely to be post-5pm once the 'working' day's done.

Thanks! P.

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PaulineF
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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:34 pm

Hi Bill - sitting in between stuff this afternoon so thought I'd hop on the first question:
1) What would you like to have happen here... in your own real words.
What do you want as a result of being here doing this dialogue?
I very recently experienced an understanding that the 'I' was a lie. This was no fancy thing, it was very fleeting ... the 'I' was thinking (or there were thoughts, right?) and then the trying to drop the thoughts and rest in awareness as happens (or not actually, most of the time!), and then there was ever such a soft 'Now I see it!'.

I don't know whether this was some kind of intellectual understanding, or what it was really - whatever, it feels like it requires deeper enquiry. But let's cut to the chase here - I see this enquiry as a kind of preparation for something else, like, once I get this then I'll go forth and do all that other stuff (live the dharma/walk the path) with the knowing that I'm nothing, that there is no separateness, no person. It feels like there's a need to know that before I do anything else - does that make sense? I see 'the seeing' as the beginning of something - NOT of being enlightened - but of being a building block on which all else will grow. I don't know what that 'all else' is, but a life still needs to be lived, whether its living itself or Pauline's at the controls (seemingly).

Also, I'm kind of uncomfortable with this investigation in that there's the fear, right? I was out walking earlier and all of a sudden I burst into tears (this isn't usual for me, and luckily I had my shades on ;)) and the thought came, what will happen when there's the realisation there's no me anymore, that it's all been a big fat lie. Well, it made me slightly emotional. I'm worried (not in a lying awake at night way) that all the things I'm interested in will fall away, that I'll walk around some jaded individual, seeing thru everything and delighting in nothing, whereas what I really want is to be able to balance the duality experienced and to bask in the divine ground of awareness :) I cannot tell a lie! That promise is alluring, right?

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PaulineF
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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:10 pm

Hi Bill - here we go for Part II - I'm sure you've seen it all, but it feels like I need to forewarn re the 'stream of consciousness' stuff ... I have a tendency to jump around as the thoughts see fit, hope you can follow :)
2) What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no 'you' in real life; none.... zero.
That if looked for, it can't be found.
That there's just life... flowing. Just what is.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.
Thoughts/stream of:
  • I know - there’s no argument here, move along!
    (But hang on - what do you mean by ‘real’? It feels real.) Perhaps I shouldn’t get hung up on the words.
    I know it can’t be found … anywhere I look there is no ‘I’ and no ‘me’
    Life is flowing, yes, but it feels like a ‘me’ doing life most of the time - even though on some level, I guess the awareness level, I know there’s no me doing life.
    I know what’s being said is true …
    But but but
    Frustration - so I know it, so what - what does that even mean?
    Confused.
    I want answers.
    What am I meant to do with this? (you’ll say there’s no one to do anything with anything) ...
    … but things seems ‘real’ - like there’s something to be done.
    Jeez - I feel like I’m living in a paradox.
    More frustration in the body ...
    If I let life just flow and unfold (which it will do anything, letting or not, I know this), how do I live the duality? Living happens, choosing happens, that will go on … but it feels like I’ll lose everything and gain nothing. It feels like that can’t be what I’ve been reading about and learning and meditating on all that time.
    Have I been had?
    But wait - those that have seen thru this talk about divine ground of being, pure love, divine consciousness, source, resting in stillness, eternal consciousness. Is that a load of crap?
    Yep - I want something out of this for sure!
    Remembering getting into this non-duality before on an intellectual level and just tossing everything to the wind because ‘nothing exists anyway’ - that understanding seems naive now. Another layer got peeled away and something was revealed.
    What if I just don’t care once I’ve looked and got it?
    If there’s an understanding on another (non-intellectual) level, how will life unfolding be?
Thanks, Bill - look forward to your response :)

P.

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Re: Home

Postby Bill » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:45 pm

Thanks for the very nice reply Pauline... I was thinking maybe I'd have to pull stuff out of you from your initial
registration response.. haha.... but it looks like that won't be necessary which is good.
I will respond to your answers in a post to follow shortly, but wanted first to go over the ground rules of how we do this:

Here's what I find works, let me know if any of these are an issue with you.

1. Post at least once a day or every other day if that's not possible for you, or if something comes up, let me know.
I'm on the west coast of US.. what is your timezone?

2. Be as honest in your answers as you can be in your own words. No spiritual jargon wanted.

3. Answer all questions asked and as best you can from your direct experience (sight, smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts). Long analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

6. This is not a discussion or a debate, but a guiding, or pointing... and you have to have an open mind and be wiling to be guided. I might push you at times and it could be uncomfortable. Just know its in the interest of you seeing through the self.

Bill

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Re: Home

Postby Bill » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:30 am

Here we go Pauline
I see this enquiry as a kind of preparation for something else, like, once I get this then I'll go forth and do all that other stuff (live the dharma/walk the path) with the knowing that I'm nothing, that there is no separateness, no person. It feels like there's a need to know that before I do anything else - does that make sense? I see 'the seeing' as the beginning of something - NOT of being enlightened - but of being a building block on which all else will grow. I don't know what that 'all else' is, but a life still needs to be lived, whether its living itself or Pauline's at the controls (seemingly).
Its sounds like you got a brief glimpse and enough to wet your appetite for more. We'll get into all of this... dont worry.
I like seeing the expectations, as it tells me a lot of where you are and what to go over with you. Yours are pretty normal.
I would just say this.... This is really no big deal as you will see. Fireworks probably wont go off... you won't become a nothing or lost in the way you are writing about. You'll simply see things as they are... That's what we will be pointing to for you.

There is fear around this and the unknown... "what will happen to me"? Yes, I get that.
Do not worry. You won't act or do anything much different than you always have.
We dont see this changing the personality. The I is not destroyed... just simply seen through as the illusion it is.
If you have some fears pop up... bring them up please so we can address them.
Nothing will really change at all... except your perception of life. You won't suddenly be problem free, or solve all your relationship issues, or be loving to all people all the time... unless you already are this way now. These are all common concerns.
whereas what I really want is to be able to balance the duality experienced and to bask in the divine ground of awareness

very spiritual sounding :) .... I can almost guarantee this will not be a concern or thought that pops in your head.
(But hang on - what do you mean by ‘real’? It feels real.)
for our pointing here, we like to define real as what we can experience through our senses; as opposed to concepts and ideas, like say reincarnation, heaven, hell etc. I will be pointing for you to find out what's real for you in your everyday life.
But but but
Frustration - so I know it, so what - what does that even mean?
Confused.
I want answers.
You'll find your own answers. They might not be what you're expecting, and may not even be important when you do see them. Understanding is sort of the booby prize in this. From everything we see and read (almost) this looks like some big ball of understanding that we dont have.. and if we get it.. we've arrived and have made it.
But....Its not about understanding anything really. You already understand enough right now.
This is about seeing.... taking that look to see if the self is real or not.
Have I been had?
But wait - those that have seen thru this talk about divine ground of being, pure love, divine consciousness, source, resting in stillness, eternal consciousness. Is that a load of crap?
Yep - I want something out of this for sure!
yes.. those are pretty much crap. Hey, don't feel bad... that stuff had all of us by the throat... the promise of green pastures and everlasting oneness and love.
You'll see that life is simply as it is. here and now. this simple everyday consciousness is what im talking about too.. not some 'spiritual state' that comes and goes. Just this that's here right now.

I could go on with this but I think you're seeing that most of those things are spiritual hype mythology.

Two things I'd like you to do as we go along outside the guiding

1) Read the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf as we go along. It's 21 stories of people being guided, just like
you're going to do. I find it excellent as a companion to the guiding as you will find some of the stories you relate to.
They are short... maybe 15 or 20 min each.. If you could read one a day it would be a big help to you while you're here.
http://liberationunleashed.com/wp-conte ... ashers.pdf

2) About this 'looking' we talk about.. Here is a video we've had for a while on it....
please watch it a few times and give me your take on it. This is your first question.
What's it saying to you? How is looking done?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyNwhK2Ur1c

Bill

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PaulineF
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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:41 pm

Hi Bill - thanks for your replies - all good stuff - responses below :)
1. Post at least once a day or every other day if that's not possible for you, or if something comes up, let me know. I'm on the west coast of US.. what is your timezone?
Every day or every other day won't be a problem :) I'm in Scotland, UK
2. Be as honest in your answers as you can be in your own words. No spiritual jargon wanted.
Honesty is something I'm really good at. No spiritual jargon, just the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
3. Answer all questions asked and as best you can from your direct experience (sight, smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts). Long analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.
Noted - just let me know if/when I veer off course - sometimes I can take a long time to get to the point, tho hopefully not in getting to the point.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
Noted. Meditation only.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
Affirmative.
6. This is not a discussion or a debate, but a guiding, or pointing... and you have to have an open mind and be wiling to be guided. I might push you at times and it could be uncomfortable. Just know its in the interest of you seeing through the self.
Understood. Thanks, Bill!

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PaulineF
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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:27 pm

OK, Bill, ready to go - here's my response to your second post:
I would just say this.... This is really no big deal as you will see. Fireworks probably wont go off... you won't become a nothing or lost in the way you are writing about. You'll simply see things as they are... That's what we will be pointing to for you.

I get that … I’m not expecting anything incredible, amazing, blissful, loving, fancy happening where something’s going to explode. I do expect a ‘oh, so that’s it … funny how I never noticed that before’ - then life will resume, same as before - pretty much.
We dont see this changing the personality. The I is not destroyed... just simply seen through as the illusion it is.
Getting that too.

Nothing will really change at all... except your perception of life. You won't suddenly be problem free, or solve all your relationship issues, or be loving to all people all the time... unless you already are this way now. These are all common concerns.
Haha - no, I concur - that’s not what I expect. I don’t expect to be a different person, but I do expect some shift to occur. Like you said - a change in perception.
for our pointing here, we like to define real as what we can experience through our senses; as opposed to concepts and ideas, like say reincarnation, heaven, hell etc. I will be pointing for you to find out what's real for you in your everyday life.
Good - point away. I’m here to be pointed.

You'll find your own answers. They might not be what you're expecting, and may not even be important when you do see them. Understanding is sort of the booby prize in this. From everything we see and read (almost) this looks like some big ball of understanding that we dont have.. and if we get it.. we've arrived and have made it.
But....Its not about understanding anything really. You already understand enough right now.
This is about seeing.... taking that look to see if the self is real or not.
On closer look, for sure, there’s nothing to understand … I get this is about seeing.

Two things I'd like you to do as we go along outside the guiding
1) Read the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf as we go along. It's 21 stories of people being guided, just like
you're going to do. I find it excellent as a companion to the guiding as you will find some of the stories you relate to.
They are short... maybe 15 or 20 min each.. If you could read one a day it would be a big help to you while you're here.
http://liberationunleashed.com/wp-conte ... ashers.pdf
Thanks! This is great - I’ll definitely be dipping into this regularly as we go along …
2) About this 'looking' we talk about.. Here is a video we've had for a while on it....
please watch it a few times and give me your take on it. This is your first question.
What's it saying to you? How is looking done?
There’s nothing in this video that I disagree or feel uncomfortable with. It’s saying to me, experiencing is happening before the I jumps in with all it’s baggage and preconceptions and labelling and beliefs and ‘colouring in’ of what’s just going on. Just desire to see that and it will be so (though it doesn’t feel as easy at that) … I go thru the video thinking, yes, yes, that sounds right, I can see this, it makes sense, it can’t be any other way.

And so, how is looking done? According to what’s being said in the video, looking is just going on and nothing needs to happen to look. Looking’s going on anyway, without the I.

So I’m looking at the candle. There’s looking - but then in I jump, thinking, ‘Try to look at this without thinking, just see it.’ … It’s like I’m trying to keep my mind clear so that I can just look, and that feels necessary - that something needs to be dropped, stopped, or quietened in order to see/look/experience. That feels irritating - like, why can’t I just see this (well, there’s the rub, the I isn’t seeing it anyway …. The paradox!)

Looking is just exactly that … directly experiencing it without the ego/mind bs narrating ... that no self is needed to experience … I know that when I look out the window and see the river, there is seeing the river happening. I know that when I put Bowie on Spotify that listening is happening, I know that when I’m sleeping, sleeping is happening … I know that there’s no I there and that seems straightforward - it all seems so straightforward when i stop and think about it. But then of course, most of the time, the experience is me having the experience … ‘Oh look at the river … I can see the river! So nice that I can see it from here … am I not lucky to live here … what can I have for dinner, I better take the dog out, I feel a headache coming on …’ Right - the internal dialogue that just goes on and on and on and ‘gets in the way. Like I just forget all the time that happening is happening. The dream seems real - all the time. Intellectually I know it’s not .. it’s impossible, and yet, there I am stuck, turning it over in my head, the constant story-telling, then the trying to ‘get it’ … ‘I’m not for real … there’s no I … stuff’s just going on, it’s fine … and s on. It’s the getting caught in it, the stuckness, the being-in-the-dream 24/7 that seems like it’s a problem that needs fixed. Like, ‘If only I could see for real this isn’t real ...

You will bring down the looking, from the land of concepts over there, to real looking, to the land of experience, and the land of experience does not need concept, or description, in order to ‘be’.

That’s what I’m hoping , and that feels good. Energizing.

From video - “You must bring this thinking to actual seeing. … Once the mind is starting to check and verify, it’s a fire. Looking and checking. Your honesty and your truth , the great liberating factor. You start to experience as it is, not as you think it is.When this happens, something really beautiful is starting to happen.”

Was out for a walk just now and could feel that … the looking and checking started - that felt new. That statement felt like something that could be worked with.

I have the desire!

OK -that’s it for today. Thanks again, Bill - gratitude arises :)

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Re: Home

Postby Bill » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:07 am

Great answers Pauline... I really like how you are already looking to your experience with your answers.
Keep this looking up! This is the key to seeing through this smothering illusion.

As we go through this, I want you to look, every time it comes to you.. for a real self.
Not obsessively.. or constantly... just every time it might pop in your head.

So how do we do this? Well, not with a furrowed brow type of looking... just casual... easy

There's a couple different ways.

You could just come to a stop, and look. Is there a self? Can I find one?


or answer this question
There is no self. Is it true? Look!

or
read this little koan we have:

Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,...
Once you see that I is just a thought
you see that thought itself does not think
and It clicks!
Its very very simple.

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Re: Home

Postby Bill » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:19 am

Lets go forward now.. I want to touch on a few things crucial to this.
The first is thoughts. So dominant and powerful in our lives.. lets take a closer look.

Anytime there is a bit of fear or frustration coming up, just let me know, we can look at it.
So far it seems that you are very open and ready.


Where do thoughts come from?

Can you control them?

Is there a thinker thinking them?



Take your time with these and look in the looking method.
Whats true for you on these?

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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:40 am

Hi Bill - Happy Saturday :)

Let's crack on.
As we go through this, I want you to look, every time it comes to you.. for a real self.
Not obsessively.. or constantly... just every time it might pop in your head.
I've started doing this - the problem for me is not to be lazy about it. It's easy to say quietly, 'well, where is 'the self'? Is there one?', to which the automatic answer is no ... and things carry on. I can see more effort is required - a proper looking when the question is asked, rather than being on autopilot.

Thanks! OK ... next ...

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PaulineF
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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:09 am

Lets go forward now.. I want to touch on a few things crucial to this.
The first is thoughts. So dominant and powerful in our lives.. lets take a closer look.
Anytime there is a bit of fear or frustration coming up, just let me know, we can look at it.
So far it seems that you are very open and ready.
It seems so, though I can't deny there is fear and frustration in parts. One of the stories I read in your recommended pdf - a comment someone made -'I can see now life is meaningless and empty'. Well of course I thought, why would I want a meaningless, empty life? That idea (and I see it's an idea with no owner, if I give it a second look) ... it's definitely the main 'fear' that comes up for me. Will I care about anything. Will I see a pointlessness in everything. Will I become a nihilist. Yes - I see that there's no 'I' to become any of that - but still it persists. I don't want meaninglessness.
Where do thoughts come from?
They seem to come from nothing and go to nothing. Arising from the stillness. There seems to be no origin and no destination.

Can you control them?
Sometimes it seems that this is possible, though admittedly I know that thoughts can't really be 'controlled' at all. They arise, one after the other, each sometimes as a consequence of the preceding, sometimes just random. Sometimes it seems like you can choose to think a certain way. Like instead of thinking that I'd like to slap a co-worker, I might realise there's an easier way to be and change, or try to change, the way I think about that co-worker and offer them a smile instead. Or we can decide that a meditation practice might bring about change in how we think so we embark on the practice and discover it changes how we think In that sense, I think that how one thinks might be controlled. Can actual thoughts be controlled - definitely not. I know this from experience, and by looking now. There is no control available - and what would be controlling anyway. Which I guess brings us to the next question ...
Is there a thinker thinking them?
Definitely not! I'm thinking, 'I'm looking out the window at the trees.' The thought is occurring. The 'I' thought brings about the sense that an 'I' is doing the thinking. As there is seeing that 'I' is a thought, then the next question is can a thought be thinking. For sure, no. Thoughts occur. Arising and falling out of silence back to silence. There appears to be no origin - but actually, on closer inspection, the origin is the stillness. The awareness.

I have a whole day ahead of me (I usually write at night) and am looking forward to investigating thoughts, thinking and the thinker throughout the day :) Thanks, Bill! Enjoying your guidance and this investigation.

P.

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Re: Home

Postby Bill » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:37 pm

Hello there Pauline,

About the looking exercises...
Yes, a short focused look is enough. Just ask the question and take a quick actual look (not a think).
And dont try to look.... just look. :)
Will I care about anything. Will I see a pointlessness in everything. Will I become a nihilist. Yes - I see that there's no 'I' to become any of that - but still it persists. I don't want meaninglessness.
What's your answer to your own question? Look.
Where do thoughts come from?
They seem to come from nothing and go to nothing. Arising from the stillness. There seems to be no origin and no destination.
Let's go a little deeper here with the looking.... For you, where do your thoughts come from? Is there a location specifically? Fine tune the looking and see what happens for you with thoughts.

Do you know what your next thought will be? For real. not a contrived situation.
How about sometimes some weird thoughts come in... where did they come from? You chose them?
Can you stop your thoughts from arising?
Yes sure, there is this seeming control.
But is it true?
Is it really true?
Are you really in control of your thoughts?
Check for yourself by looking.


About the 'thinker'
Is there a you that is doing the thinking, or does it just happen on its own?
Can you 'not think' if you want to?
Do you have to do anything to think?


Notice all of these questions need you to actually look, and not simply think to answer them.
You're doing great... I like how you are going after this.
Dig and find the answers... only you have them.

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Re: Home

Postby PaulineF » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:04 am

Hi Bill - Happy Sunday :)

OK, let's go:
Let's go a little deeper here with the looking.... For you, where do your thoughts come from? Is there a location specifically? Fine tune the looking and see what happens for you with thoughts.
I can’t see thoughts arising from any ‘location’. I would say, as I fine-tune the looking, that they seem to come from a point of singularity - but that point has no location. Inside the head? More inside the head than over there by that tree, but I feel like I'd just be tying myself up in trying to describe something that I can't actually find words for. I’m sitting here watching thoughts as they arise. From no thought to a thought - I can’t actually find a location anywhere. Thoughts just appear - to try and find a location seems fruitless. There is just thinking - just like there is a bird flying overhead. Where does the bird come from? The bird just is. I can imagine it came from somewhere, and I can’t put together a story about where it came from in a physical, linear sense - but the bird is just there. Same with thoughts. I can put together a story on where they come from, but it would just be a story. Thoughts are just passing.
Do you know what your next thought will be? For real. not a contrived situation.
No.
How about sometimes some weird thoughts come in... where did they come from? You chose them?
They just arose.
But is it true?
Is it really true?
Are you really in control of your thoughts?
Check for yourself by looking.
There’s no control of thoughts … no arguments there.
About the 'thinker'
Is there a you that is doing the thinking, or does it just happen on its own?
It just happens, thoughts arise.
Can you 'not think' if you want to?
No

Do you have to do anything to think?
No.

There's no disagreement with thoughts here - including the I thought. I went about my day yesterday, mostly being Pauline, sometimes stopping and asking what's happening, what's doing everything, is there an 'I' doing anything ... stuff like that. Well mostly stuff was really just happening ... Actually, there were glimpses of openness and spaciousness, and freedom - I guess the freedom of not being caught in Pauline-ing ... even though that's fine too. I'll see what comes up today with the looking - though it feels like I'm now expecting someone that's already at the door. I'm not sure where else to go with this.

Thanks, Bill - enjoy your Sunday :) With gratitude.

P.


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